Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[Lentwood]

In my book thinking that any other PL manager could do a better job isn't close to rational - the vast majority wouldn't have the dressing room for more than a few minutes at best, and the pressure of the United job would crush them. Rangnick was highly respected, and he lasted 45 minutes before the squad discarded his approach.

But even if that were the case, those managers aren't gettable. Emery isn't gettable, at least not now (possibly at the end of the season, although there are lots of candidates I'd have above him for that). McKenna is probably feasible, if expensive, to get immediately, but he wouldn't come as a caretaker so it would have to be a permanent appointment, and I'd suggest there are huge question marks over whether he could cope with the United job. But I'm open to being convinced - what is it about his CV that suggests to you he's ready for the job?

As for the so what, I think you're underestimating the damage that a bad managerial appointment can do. Once we've sacked Ten Hag, will you see his tenure as no harm done? I highly doubt it, and if I'm right then by your own logic "so what, sack him and move on" is a dangerous approach. For sure it's one I don't agree with, I'd much rather us do some succession planning and bring in managers we expect to succeed, rather than setting the bar as low as "worth a shot".

The bit in bold is, once again, a deliberate misrepresentation of my point. It seems to be a common theme with posters who want the manager gone immediately, a rather tedious refusal to discern between "literally nobody better" and "nobody immediately attainable that is worth not waiting for the summer when we can bring in a top manager", which is much closer to my position.

As to your point that our knowledge base is limited in comparison to Dan Ashworth and the other execs, I agree. But those knowledgeable folks have opted to stick with Ten Hag. If you want to defer to their knowledge for choice of manager, well they've chosen the incumbent. Nobody is infallible of course, but you can't make the appeal to authority only when it lines up with your thoughts.

The point is a bad managerial appointment SHOULDN'T do that much damage, not if you have the right structure in-place to ensure continuity. We've obviously lacked that previously but I think moving forward should be less of an issue.

As for McKenna, I think it's clear his coaching skills are well above average. The Ipswich team he inherited were firmly a mid-table League One side and it's not like he signed a load of players or bought in favourable loans from friendly clubs like Lampard, Gerrard and Keane have done previously.

I'm very confident he could come in and improve the likes of Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Mainoo etc...you talk about winning over the dressing room but this isn't a squad of super-egos and proven winners, it's a squad low on confidence and lacking direction. I don't think it would be that tough to win them over, especially the younger lads or the lads fighting to establish themselves.

If there's one point I want people to take away from my posts on this subject it's that we shouldn't be afraid to change managers. It shouldn't be the big deal that it seemingly is at United, probably as a direct results of SAFs legacy.

 

[Highfather_24]

I don't think this is the 'gotchya' you think it is.

What point are you trying to make here?

Yeah its not a gotcha at all.

My point was we can all think a manager is a perfect fit, and it can still not work out. There's no perfect candidate. There's no manager we need to blindly back in a "long term project", with the hope it works out(say with McKenna). We need to stop looking for the next SAF, its just not viable.

We need to hire the right guy with the best credentials, and see how it goes. Fire him within a year or two if things are not working, and rinse and repeat. That's how most top clubs operate.

 

[Highfather_24]

Klopp will be fecking up his whole legacy at Liverpool if he joins us. He will never do that, for obvious reasons.

 

[RedDevil@84]

if ETH is smart he’ll change his tactics/system. Arne slot told everyone how to beat us in like 2 mins. He broke down our tactics and knew how to get around it.

He is stubborn. He won't change a thing. He expects to do the same thing again and again and expect different results.

 

[Salford_Red83]

Yeah its not a gotcha at all.

My point was we can all think a manager is a perfect fit, and it can still not work out. There's no perfect candidate. There's no manager we need to blindly back in a "long term project", with the hope it works out(say with McKenna). We need to stop looking for the next SAF, its just not viable.

We need to hire the right guy with the best credentials, and see how it goes. Fire him within a year or two if things are not working, and rinse and repeat. That's how most top clubs operate.

Right, well that wasn't really clear from the post.

You can be excited for a new manager, especially one who has been moderately successful and played exciting football.
I agree with you though, when people are making the argument "there's nobody better available right now", and?

Remove him, replace him with a more suitable candidate. If they don't work out remove and replace, remove and replace, until the one you actually replace him with works out, then you stick by them.

I'm so sick of supposed Man United fans putting ETH before Manchester United.

 

[Theo88]

You don’t mention we beat Liverpool and Cheaty to win the FA cup. Also, we were the better team in the FA cup final the year before. I guess that doesn’t fit your agenda.

And Newcastle 2 years ago. I don't have an agenda. I'm just trying to state that those titles are basically 2 or 3 good games. It's not like we went head to head with the best and time and again we presented an amazing front. It's 3 games in 2 years.

If we have 3 good games and 40 shit games we have a crap campaign.

I'm reserving judgement for when ugarte starts playing i hope that unlocks the team.

 

[UpWithRivers]

The thing is we had a whole season of these tactics. Everyone knows that it looks nuts with our midfield being run over and conceding 20 chances a game etc The new management team Berada, Dan Ashworth, Ratcliffe etc all see this and know this. However they all sat down with him and must have asked wtf is going on. And they must have heard his ideas on his philosophy and plan for where he is taking the team. They all had a zoom Call (some were on gardening leave but we know they had thier say). Then they all decided. Fk yes. This sounds like plan. Let's invest another 200 on this guy. He's going to take us places.

So what can you conclude from that? That's what does my head in. It seems obvious it's fkd but it's like maybe there is a plan that they can see and it just needs to click into place? All these top pros think so.

 

[doubleohseven]

The point isn't to downgrade Klopp, as I said I like Klopp a lot and rate him very highly. The point is to not overestimate Klopp in 2015 when we evaluate managers in 2024, it's a bit silly to suggest that Klopp is a no brainer in 2015 compared to the potential managers that are Enrique, Tuchel or Inzaghi because their achievements are at least very close to Klopp's in 2015.

I disagree with comparing 2015 and 2024. I merely pointed it out with reference to Carragher's assessment.

I'm not sure I presented Klopp as a 'no brainer' as you say, either, just suggested the contrast between Rodgers and Klopp is greater than any of your chosen trio and EtH in terms of taking United forward.

How not to run a football club. It’s a complete circus.

Just sack the man and get an alternative in since you’re clearly completely unconvinced by him considering you spent weeks sounding out alternatives before deciding to stick with him - and preferably do it silently and without briefing the media every 15 minutes?

It isn't great, is it?

However, as much as EtH has unconvinced so have the prospects.

We are between a rock and a hard place, here, and another bad move can and likely will exacerbate decline.

 

[Vargo Hoat]

How am I trolling?

Our new structure is professional. They wouldn’t be doing their job at least having a conversation with him if they were planning to have a new guy next season

There's probably a thousand reasons why this is close to the single most unlikely "signing" in the entire footballing world, and if you can't see that I must reevaluate my second sentence. Should Liverpool call Alex Ferguson and say "Hey we have a good thing going here, why don't you join us?"
Unless you also think there is a world where that could happen, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Fortitude]

You can look at it from a pre Xs and Os point of view and it doesn't actually hurt. Also I don't know if it helps but I think that I had an epiphany the other day but it's kind of frightening if I'm right. The way the team operates is meant for Cruijffs 334, with the for being a sort of diamond and 33 being relatively narrow.

So in possession it would looke like:

De Ligt---Casemiro--Martinez
----------------------------------------
Mazraoui-Mainoo--Dalot
----------------------------------------
---------------Bruno
Amad---------------Rashford
--------------Zirkzee

Now this is a very difficult thing to do, because by default you purposefully leave lots of space and has many coverage rules to follow and it requires a lot of running as Bielsa has shown with his 3331. It's also better if you have someone like Blind as your fullback than Dalot. If I remember correctly there is some similarity to his 2018-2019 Ajax team with De Jong dropping to form a back three and Tagliafico-Mazraoui operating as wingbacks more than normal fullbacks.

Will keep a look out. I’m so disillusioned with him, I’m not really taking in games on a tactical level because I don’t believe in anything he’s trying to do anymore.

 

[Redstain]

No serious ownership can be that stupid to not take into account the way United have been stylistically playing and performing on the pitch since around March 2023.

I think it's naivety to a large degree but changing people in the hierarchy isn't suddenly going to make a manager become competent. Regardless of what Berrada and co do it's the same manager that's leading training sessions, choosing the match squad and providing the instructions before a game from their own assessment of how to approach specific fixtures.

It feels like a similar trajectory with Liverpool and Brendan Rodgers, Liverpool changed some of the hierarchy around and the backroom staff under the same manager yet they still produced the same results.

INEOS real success will be the actions they take to improve upon ETH. I think it's pretty much set in stone unless in a few months Erik suddenly becomes one of the best coaches in the league, because that's what it will take for him to be deemed successful at a club the size of United with the resources available.

 

[Denis79]

What I find funny is 90% of the forum was on the ETH bandwagon before he got here. And vehemently so, treated him like the next Pep/Klopp.

I think most, pundits and fans are surprised how poorly he has performed in the PL. Don't think there were many who predicted it to be as bad as it is.

 

[crossy1686]

I'm pretty sure it'd be the most impossible managerial appointment you can think of.

People said the same about Benitez joining Everton or Chelsea. I'm not saying it will happen or it could, but you need to rule out the possibility of it happening by at least asking the question instead of assuming it won't happen.

 

[golden_blunder]

There's probably a thousand reasons why this is close to the single most unlikely "signing" in the entire footballing world, and if you can't see that I must reevaluate my second sentence. Should Liverpool call Alex Ferguson and say "Hey we have a good thing going here, why don't you join us?"
Unless you also think there is a world where that could happen, I don't know what to tell you.

Read my post. I’m talking about having a conversation.

 

[JPRouve]

Will keep a look out. I’m so disillusioned with him, I’m not really taking in games on a tactical level because I don’t believe in anything he’s trying to do anymore.

To be clear I'm not saying that it is what will happen but how it should happen. And I myself don't believe in him because I don't understand how he doesn't see the issues or maybe how he repeatedly fails to teach his idea if the issue is solely execution. Within our system I don't think that required changes are massive, it's a serie of small adjustments that haven't happened since 2022.

 

[RedRover]

How not to run a football club. It’s a complete circus.

Just sack the man and get an alternative in since you’re clearly completely unconvinced by him considering you spent weeks sounding out alternatives before deciding to stick with him - and preferably do it silently and without briefing the media every 15 minutes?

I’d assume this sort of approach which involves a) micromanaging the coach’s every move and b) briefing the media every morning on your current feelings about the coach can’t be conducive to convincing a decent alternative to take up the job either.

Correct. This does nothing for INEOS reputation with the fans. They either decided to stick with him because he won one game, or because you couldn't decide whether any of the other options were good enough. Either scenario is concerning.

 

[crossy1686]

Klopp will be fecking up his whole legacy at Liverpool if he joins us. He will never do that, for obvious reasons.

Many managers have fecked up their legacies in the name of money and a promise of a bigger legacy elsewhere

 

[RedRover]

Sort of. But in last years thread one of the most bogus of many bogus reasons given for why ETH deserved more time was because Wilcox and Ashworth would 'rescue our football' and force ETH to coach a better style and change his tactical approach.

Completely oblivious to the fact that technical and football directors are not tacticians or coaches. They dont devise how the team plays. They influence the 'game model' only by choosing managers and coaches who have the playing philosophy they want. And then signing players who also fit that style.

Which is why Wilcox wanted ETH sacked, and why Ashworth will want him sacked, if he doesnt already.

Exactly. What's the point in having a Manager / Head Coach if they're not managing or coaching?

 

[Licha-Vidic]

I think we should cut top Management some slack ( that is Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox etc) they have said openly, they were not involved in keeping ETH around.

So in keeping ETH, the decision rests solely on Ratcliffe,Blanc, Brailsford, Recce the Directorship level of Ineos.
And true to it, they are not football people. So like Glazers they made a monumental error.

We can excuse the Ineos team, as they needed to make the decision early and bite of the luck that ETH won't be as bad as he was last season.


But now, the dilemma is there must be a power struggle on the decision of either to keep the manager or not. You can be sure the management team, the football people, are shocked by how we are playing now are probably assessing why ETH was kept and the director level team wouldn't want a scenario where they fluked the first instance of keeping the manager.

And going forward, will the Ineos people gave out power to management team to pull the trigger of manager without a Veto from them.

In more ways than one, we are the point of success or failure. Or if we assume our problems then we will remain stuck here forever.

So let's see if, Ineos will trust the judgment of Berrada and Ashworth and accept their mistep.

 

[SungSam7]

As Dan Ashworth said in an interview, you can't keep swapping out managers with different styles and expect the club to be successful soon after.

Maybe the reason ETH kept his job was that they couldn't find a suitable manager to match the style they want and gave him a shot after another window.

I could be wrong, not sure but I'd agree with Ashworth anyway.

 

[despairingfool]

They should sack him now and say they want a change of approach. Decisive, quick, act now Ineos.

 

[Shark]

As Dan Ashworth said in an interview, you can't keep swapping out managers with different styles and expect the club to be successful soon after.

Maybe the reason ETH kept his job was that they couldn't find a suitable manager to match the style they want and gave him a shot after another window.

I could be wrong, not sure but I'd agree with Ashworth anyway.

If the style isn't working in English football, and results of said style is the club and it's brand being dragged through the mud, why would you persist? It's not like we have Arene Wenger when he was delivering CL football every season. It's unambitious, but in that case I kind of understand why Arsenal stook with him for his style. It was delivering some level of results.

ETH isn't even on that level.

 

[JPRouve]

As Dan Ashworth said in an interview, you can't keep swapping out managers with different styles and expect the club to be successful soon after.

Maybe the reason ETH kept his job was that they couldn't find a suitable manager to match the style they want and gave him a shot after another window.

I could be wrong, not sure but I'd agree with Ashworth anyway.

It only makes sense if two things are true at the same time. The current manager has a very peculiar style and the squad is built with specialists due to that style.

Neither of these things are true for us, our current style is very common at all levels. There is nothing special with being a fast transition team that uses a mid block in defense, it's the vanilla equivalent of Football.

 

[Footyislife]

The decision to fire him is not that simple. Clearly injuries have had an impact. The issue with TenHag is that he clearly isn't a coach who excels at maximizing the talent he has.

Is that necessary if there is the right squad around him? If he has a good squad can he deliver? That's the question Dan & INEOS will be asking themselves.

Clearly work still needs to be done with the squad with Rashford, Antony, Casemiro. Why bring in a new manager and set them up for failure?

It's a shrewd calculated move by INEOS that I would also do, even if in my heart of hearts I knew TenHag isn't the level of manager we need.

 

[Blood Mage]

As Dan Ashworth said in an interview, you can't keep swapping out managers with different styles and expect the club to be successful soon after.

Maybe the reason ETH kept his job was that they couldn't find a suitable manager to match the style they want and gave him a shot after another window.

I could be wrong, not sure but I'd agree with Ashworth anyway.

I've yet to see evidence that Ten Hag even has a style. If high pressing and sharp transitions is what we want then there are plenty out there who can do that. Nagelsmann, Rose and Iraola are three examples.

 

[RedRocket9908]

As Dan Ashworth said in an interview, you can't keep swapping out managers with different styles and expect the club to be successful soon after.

Im not really sure this is true though, look at Chelsea for example who last 3 titles were all won the season after sacking a manager and replacing him with one with a different style.

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Wasn’t this what the post season review was all about? Surely a whole season is a big enough sample size to determine whether or not this managers style is the way forward or not? We’re now at risk of writing off yet another season while the folk in charge dither about for months before inevitably sacking him mid way through the season. He’s now in his 3rd season, he isn’t suddenly going to change up and start playing a completely different brand of football.

 

[Blood Mage]

Wasn’t this what the post season review was all about? Surely a whole season is a big enough sample size to determine whether or not this managers style is the way forward or not? We’re now at risk of writing off yet another season while the folk in charge dither about for months before inevitably sacking him mid way through the season. He’s now in his 3rd season, he isn’t suddenly going to change up and start playing a completely different brand of football.

The excuse will be that Berrada, Ashworth and Vivell weren't there to make the decision. We definitely weren't in constant communication with them. The truth is that our flashy new team of experts dropped a massive bollock here.

 

[lex talionis]

Klopp will be fecking up his whole legacy at Liverpool if he joins us. He will never do that, for obvious reasons.

It’s not going to happen anyway, but if Klopp did take the job and won major trophies, his legacy would be stratospheric. But it ain’t gonna happen.

 

[UnitedSofa]

Wasn’t this what the post season review was all about? Surely a whole season is a big enough sample size to determine whether or not this managers style is the way forward or not? We’re now at risk of writing off yet another season while the folk in charge dither about for months before inevitably sacking him mid way through the season. He’s now in his 3rd season, he isn’t suddenly going to change up and start playing a completely different brand of football.

It's been 3 games, even if it gets to 10 games season isn't over. Look at Chelsea who ultimately ended up finishing above us despite spending good periods of time in the bottom half of the table.

The excuse will be that Berrada, Ashworth and Vivell weren't there to make the decision. We definitely weren't in constant communication with them. The truth is that our flashy new team of experts dropped a massive bollock here.

I mean they literally weren't there to make the decision. Ashworth has openly said that.

 

[NK86]

We played a more defensive brand of football under Mourinho & Ole, and look where that got us. And yes, the scatter gun approach to buying players which we’ve seen for the past decade has resulted in a squad not fit for a big club like Manchester United. That’s not exempting Ten Hag from criticism, but describing the reality that any manager at the club will have to deal with.

The manager has had to face issues but he seems to be making it worse with his style of football. That’s not getting the best out of his resources but being too stubborn to not try and get the best of what is available to him.

 

[GoodTimes]

Imagining finishing 8th with a negative goal difference and realising things have to get even worse in order for a change to happen.

 

[In Absentia]

brailsford and blanc are the ones who primarily made the indecision in the summer, with advice from Wilcox (who wanted ETH sacked)

Coincidentally the two Ineos board members who are responsible for Ineos sport doing so badly at everything they try.

We can only hope the only people making football decisions from now on are Wilcox, Ashworth and Berrada. Ratcliffe should only be acting on the advice of those 3 or we definitely won’t get anywhere.

Has it been reported that Wilcox wanted Ten Hag gone?

Now that Berrada’s here, I think Ten Hag’s on shakier ground. Wilcox is his man.

 

[CtrlAltDeLigt]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.

 

[stevoc]

Did we? I don't think so, at least under Ole we scored more goals and we had some good periods. We played more conservative football but that was to our strength. I certainly don't think we're playing more attacking football now. We're pressing higher but that doesn't translate in anything other than tennis matches.

Some people think pressing = attacking. Pressing is defending further up the pitch.

 

[RedBanker]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

Not like we are anyways winning the league, if we get a suitable replacement with 30 games left, we can still hope for top 4.

Bravo!! That's the spirit.

 

[stevoc]

Why?

He was the Liverpool manager for almost a decade and seems very connected to the club.

 

[MadDogg]

The poll is now 83% in favour of sacking. The same poll was around 65% when he won the cup, in favour of him staying.

3 games at the start of the season shouldn’t dictate the heavy investment and the trust we’ve shown towards him. Atleast waiting till we are 7-8 games in to get a fair idea whether this is going towards something good or not.

While that is true, the same should be said that 1 game at the end of the season shouldn't have dictated the heavy swing towards 'keep him' that it did. That was the anomaly, not what is happening now.

In saying that, considering we did keep him I personally am putting last season behind me and giving him a fresh start to some extent. I expect he's going to fail, and seeing as we've started poorly it's even more likely, but I'll give him another four or so games before I actually vote in this poll and basically write him off.

 

[stevoc]

Been backed better than any of his predecessors yet the results keep getting worse and worse over time.

I'd also argue that amongst that list, we also play the worst brand football.

Let's hope we can make top 4 this season.

If all goes well of course, we can't be exptected to overcome any adversity in trying to achieve that goal.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

The excuse will be that Berrada, Ashworth and Vivell weren't there to make the decision. We definitely weren't in constant communication with them. The truth is that our flashy new team of experts dropped a massive bollock here.

My only explanation is that it was a combination of impact on finances (this transfers) and Tuchel deciding to take a break. He was clearly their top choice and once he wasn’t available they weren’t willing to sacrifice potential signings to fire Ten Hag and instead decided on the coin flip that maybe he turns it around.