No to mention much of our “best XI” still relies on players that were here before him. Dalot, Bruno, Rashford, Garnacho, Amad, Mainoo, Shaw. He didn’t buy any of them yet all but one of those would start in our ideal team right now
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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The facts are, after 10 years of mismanagement United are miles and miles behind Man City.
We're living in an era of Man City dominance where, even traditional big clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal who have spent years in the wilderness only to finally built a great team, still always end up behind Man City.
United should therefore play the long game and target a period in 2-3 years where not only can they have built a great team, but the inevitable cycles of football may also mean Man City are dwindling. This could happen even quicker with all the FFP fire they're under and the fact a lot of their success is down to Pep brilliance who will likely leave soon.
United have to therefore stop searching for the cyclical top 4 finishes, making signings like Casemiro, Cavani, Matic, etc. who can get you top 4 in the short term but become deadwood very quickly. They also need to stop getting in players who are good enough to play for years in a top 4 team, but not for a title challenging team, such as Fernandes and Rashford. Crucially, they need to stop getting in managers who can get you top 4 but not in a pretty way or in a sustainable style, such as Mouriniho, Ole and LVG. Liverpool in 2019 and Arsenal in 2023 were in positions a lot stronger than United have had for 11 years now, and they had both recently spent 5+ years outside the CL. We haven't even spent more than 1 year out of it because that's all we cared about.
The club therefore need to make changes deeper. This has been happening for months now with changes upstairs. The transfer policy and the manner in which deals were done has clearly improved already. This will take a long time for it to be reflected on the pitch. The squad is not very good, consisting mostly of deadwood ready to be moved on at a later date or players who are years away from their prime (including new signings). Yes, you could address this by signing a short term striker/midfielder etc. and finishing 4th, but the deadwood cycle would just go on indefinitely.
So importantly, the next managerial appointment has to be right. If you get a short term option who can improve us this season how sustainable is it? The same cycle will continue. Look at Ole. If that means waiting months for the right target to emerge or become available whilst we finish 8th again, that's fine. the goal has to be long term. We could have a prime Fergie reincarnated and they wouldn't be able to topple City for at least 2 years anyway.
In the meantime, during this period of City dominance, what can United hope for? How about beating them in a cup final? ETH did that in 2024. How about finishing high enough in the league and winning the only trophy City didn't? ETH did that in 2023. It's obvious to me and everyone else that he isn't the man who will lead us back to glory, but at the moment I don't see the target out there who is. If we just binned ETH and got in another mediocre manager, they would be given time and we'd just end up in the same cycle. Maybe a cycle like under Ole where we can finish top 4, but then you'd all be missing the cups won under ETH. This club should be where Man City are, winning league titles on a regular basis, and the board are right in choosing to wait for the right managerial target.
We're living in an era of Man City dominance where, even traditional big clubs like Liverpool and Arsenal who have spent years in the wilderness only to finally built a great team, still always end up behind Man City.
United should therefore play the long game and target a period in 2-3 years where not only can they have built a great team, but the inevitable cycles of football may also mean Man City are dwindling. This could happen even quicker with all the FFP fire they're under and the fact a lot of their success is down to Pep brilliance who will likely leave soon.
United have to therefore stop searching for the cyclical top 4 finishes, making signings like Casemiro, Cavani, Matic, etc. who can get you top 4 in the short term but become deadwood very quickly. They also need to stop getting in players who are good enough to play for years in a top 4 team, but not for a title challenging team, such as Fernandes and Rashford. Crucially, they need to stop getting in managers who can get you top 4 but not in a pretty way or in a sustainable style, such as Mouriniho, Ole and LVG. Liverpool in 2019 and Arsenal in 2023 were in positions a lot stronger than United have had for 11 years now, and they had both recently spent 5+ years outside the CL. We haven't even spent more than 1 year out of it because that's all we cared about.
The club therefore need to make changes deeper. This has been happening for months now with changes upstairs. The transfer policy and the manner in which deals were done has clearly improved already. This will take a long time for it to be reflected on the pitch. The squad is not very good, consisting mostly of deadwood ready to be moved on at a later date or players who are years away from their prime (including new signings). Yes, you could address this by signing a short term striker/midfielder etc. and finishing 4th, but the deadwood cycle would just go on indefinitely.
So importantly, the next managerial appointment has to be right. If you get a short term option who can improve us this season how sustainable is it? The same cycle will continue. Look at Ole. If that means waiting months for the right target to emerge or become available whilst we finish 8th again, that's fine. the goal has to be long term. We could have a prime Fergie reincarnated and they wouldn't be able to topple City for at least 2 years anyway.
In the meantime, during this period of City dominance, what can United hope for? How about beating them in a cup final? ETH did that in 2024. How about finishing high enough in the league and winning the only trophy City didn't? ETH did that in 2023. It's obvious to me and everyone else that he isn't the man who will lead us back to glory, but at the moment I don't see the target out there who is. If we just binned ETH and got in another mediocre manager, they would be given time and we'd just end up in the same cycle. Maybe a cycle like under Ole where we can finish top 4, but then you'd all be missing the cups won under ETH. This club should be where Man City are, winning league titles on a regular basis, and the board are right in choosing to wait for the right managerial target.
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I've been trying to think of a bigger fraud than this guy and I keep coming up short. Like, you obviously have many cases of managers failing to make the step up and quickly disappearing, or just straight up worse and mediocre managers out there but no one really expects anything of them. Take, I don't know, Frank de Boer, or Nuno Espirito Santo, for example, off the top of my head. Pochettino's myth lasted for a while, but he never really stuck around in one place for long because he inevitably got sacked, for better or worse. Potter practically vanished as well, although he is still getting paid by Chelsea. And you also have Southgate. But did anyone really like or believe in Southgate outside of any patriotic feelings one might have?
But I don't think I have seen a guy defraud so many people into thinking that he is this great mastermind, this impeccable tactician, that has The Plan™, and if you just give him enough money and enough time he will suddenly turn into Guardiola, despite so clearly not being different than those guys above and will eventually end the same way. Much closer to Nuno than anywhere close to Pep. And it's not just random people, but journalists, and apparently INEOS as well? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Or just not wanting to admit one is wrong? Indecision? Blind loyalty? It doesn't sound any different to a VC scam to me. One of those that you wonder how people fell for it in the first place, even smart people. But that can at least be explained with greed. Is his just a case of the right place at the right time?
My friends that support other clubs barely even banter anymore, they just keep asking me how he still has the job. Imagine if I start explaining how he is actually great and will have United challenging soon. I’d sound like a lunatic. Exactly like the people that invest into those VC scams and remain utterly convinced they are about to be millionaires if they believe hard enough and hold on, despite the entire thing being a complete and obvious scam to everyone else.
Same thing here. This manager is so obviously and clearly not good and no amount of support will change that. This team isn’t going to be utterly shit for three years and then suddenly become world class on the fourth, or fifth, or whatever year. His football has been exposed time and again. And what happens when 1-2 players get injured? Just fall apart completely again? He is all out of pathetic excuses. So, what’s the point of wasting any more resources? There’s the matter of replacement, but if INEOS are so professional and have a style in mind, then surely there’s someone out there that can do much better with this squad? Because unlike 2 years ago, I think the squad is quite good now. Not brilliant, certainly, but should be enough to challenge Top 4 comfortably. I'm certain a proper manager can do that, and could also use to prepare for next season better. So, just sack now and move on.
But I don't think I have seen a guy defraud so many people into thinking that he is this great mastermind, this impeccable tactician, that has The Plan™, and if you just give him enough money and enough time he will suddenly turn into Guardiola, despite so clearly not being different than those guys above and will eventually end the same way. Much closer to Nuno than anywhere close to Pep. And it's not just random people, but journalists, and apparently INEOS as well? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Or just not wanting to admit one is wrong? Indecision? Blind loyalty? It doesn't sound any different to a VC scam to me. One of those that you wonder how people fell for it in the first place, even smart people. But that can at least be explained with greed. Is his just a case of the right place at the right time?
My friends that support other clubs barely even banter anymore, they just keep asking me how he still has the job. Imagine if I start explaining how he is actually great and will have United challenging soon. I’d sound like a lunatic. Exactly like the people that invest into those VC scams and remain utterly convinced they are about to be millionaires if they believe hard enough and hold on, despite the entire thing being a complete and obvious scam to everyone else.
Same thing here. This manager is so obviously and clearly not good and no amount of support will change that. This team isn’t going to be utterly shit for three years and then suddenly become world class on the fourth, or fifth, or whatever year. His football has been exposed time and again. And what happens when 1-2 players get injured? Just fall apart completely again? He is all out of pathetic excuses. So, what’s the point of wasting any more resources? There’s the matter of replacement, but if INEOS are so professional and have a style in mind, then surely there’s someone out there that can do much better with this squad? Because unlike 2 years ago, I think the squad is quite good now. Not brilliant, certainly, but should be enough to challenge Top 4 comfortably. I'm certain a proper manager can do that, and could also use to prepare for next season better. So, just sack now and move on.
3 games into the season and people already getting upset that INEOS haven't sacked Ten Hag after...3 games.
I endorse the long run argument, but on what basis can it be argued that ETH is right man for the long run? It can't just be that he won the FA Cup, because apart from that his tenure as manager of United our performances and results have been rather shit. I went through this point a few months but I'll just state briefly we won a lot of games last season by one goal against supposedly inferior opponents. We were thrashed out of the CL group stage. We were nowhere near touching the top four at season's end.
Moreover, ETH's recruitment has been remarkably ridiculous. I can go through the names but everyone here is familiar with the tragedy of the ins prior to this summer. As for this summer, that remains to be seen. As for the tactics, his tactics don't suit the players he has at his disposal.
Still, I don't see a good option to turn to right now so slog on with ETH we must.
Moreover, ETH's recruitment has been remarkably ridiculous. I can go through the names but everyone here is familiar with the tragedy of the ins prior to this summer. As for this summer, that remains to be seen. As for the tactics, his tactics don't suit the players he has at his disposal.
Still, I don't see a good option to turn to right now so slog on with ETH we must.
How many times does it have to said on here that these people, including myself, wanted him gone for over a year now. Especially after the FA Cup. He had to start well this season, and he's continuing to shit the bed. This reaction was always going to happen in this case.
3 games.
It's not three games in the winder scheme of things though, is it? Everyone and their granny knew he had to start this season flying after the disgrace of a season he overseen.
Has ETH been manager of Manchester United Football Club for only "3 games"?
Imagine doing this. Then getting a new contract, coaching staff around you and the most money to spend out of all clubs again (except Chelsea) and still getting worse.
It doesn't even matter. We're shit at pressing. The fact we attempting to press is doing more harm than good.
No. 2 seasons + 3 games. 3 games showing a continuation of the same old rubbish.
How daft must a person have to be to ignore the evidence of 2 whole seasons and give him a clean slate, in some misguided blind hope that he'll magically transform into a good manager.
3 under the new structure and game model though.
Cheers Stefan.
I'm too young to remember what it was like in Fergie's early days. Obviously there was no social media but I know he was a goal away from getting sacked. It paid off keeping him, that doesn't mean it's going to be the case with every manager.
I don't know if Ten Hag is the one to lead the club back to success. I am willing to ride it out with him a bit longer.
In terms of replacing him, I genuinely think the only manager in the world right now who could get short term success would be Ancelotti. And that isn't going to happen.
An interesting few months ahead and glad for once it's an international break. A pause and chill period was need for everyone.
Ok so the new loony narrative is "3 games". Is the " who will replace him" narrative still active on here?
No, a good amount of us are adamant that he should have been sacked back in May, even after the cup win. There is already enough evidence that he isn't good enough and never will be.
I think you’re quite aware of the circumstantial issue here; I have said he should get 10 games before the season had kicked off, but the way we’re plummeting, there’s no way that holds true. He cannot be allowed to tank another season, which shortens his margins for error tremendously.
When things look like a run-on, they get treated as such. We’re rubbish at everything. Still. It wallops goodwill and “fresh start” for six because it then doesn’t look or feel like anything but a well worn continuation.
Bingo! The players at ETH's disposal are not inclined to press and when they do it's half-hearted and disjointed. In the American West there's a saying that goes you can lead a horse to water to you can't make the horse drink. I have no no doubt that ETH instructs his players in training to press but they just don't do it in actual competition and when they do, they're easily bypassed and find acres of space in front of them and score goals for fun, like shooting fish in a barrel.
I can understand keeping ETH for a few more months while INEOS recruit a suitable successor but ETH needs to understand that what his tactics aren't working. Were he to man up and bench Rashford and adjust his tactics to suit the players he has who are willing to put in the effort and win some games he might just dodge the bullet and see through the "long run". But the direction he has us going in now, which is the wrong direction, he'll be replaced with an interim manager by mid-October.
I would actually like to see what Ruud can do with this squad. It's painfully obvious now that ETH has lost the players -- if he ever had them -- but it's open question whether Ruud or anyone else could command their respect.
We don't have a new game model. But most critically how is a new structure supposed to improve coaching issues? Is there an example of something similar ever happening in any sport?
Not really we press, the structure of our pressing makes no sense but it is executed.
Into his 3rd season.... 3rd season.
Regarding our pressing I think that context is important. Our players have absolutely been inclined to press and for that reason we have been one of the team that creates the most turnovers in the league but the way we do it is reckless, it's a bit like a heavyweight that only throws haymakers, he is likely to have a high KO rate but he is also likely to get himself rocked by any decent boxer.
There is a new game model that's set by Wilcox. Whether the coaching issues are ironed out as a result of working toward a tweak in the way we play, wel find out. 3 games is too early to tell but I'm not saying ten hag shouldn't find himself under immense pressure given how last season went.
Any sources on this? Would be interesting to read.
What is that new game model? How does it differs from last season?
There is no new 'game model'. The term is nonsense.
Great analogy.
Isn’t it more like a boxer who throws only haymakers but has powderpuff power? We might win turnovers high up the pitch but we then don’t do anything with it (because our structure and tactics when we actually have the ball are all over the place). I don’t recall the last time we actually knocked someone out - at best we hang on for a gritty win on points.
As such, we huff and we puff and we occasionally create a good position but realistically we still rely heavily on a moment of magic from one of our forwards. As soon as someone hits us, we can’t recover.
Im not in the room but I believe there is a clear style and structure that the team will operate in and they want continuity irrespective of the manager in this department. It was reported by various credible journalists but one is here(https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ed-game-model-jason-wilcox-identity-transfer/
If ten hag fails to implement a style consistent with the vision that Wilcox has (supported by the structure embedded by Ashworth) then I'm sure hel be sacked and rightly.
I just think 3 games is a bit early to tell right now. Given neither Ashworth nor Berrada were in the room when he was renewed, hel need to convince fans and the board. He's not off to a good start.
That's a different point in the sense that the goal of pressing is to create turnovers. We are also have bad footwork and struggle to get in range but that's a different issue to throwing haymakers.
Pick your poison:
- 3 games
- No qualified replacement
- We've improved
- Unlucky losses
- Referee positioning vs Liverpool
- Individual mistakes
- Superior xG
- Ugarte not available
- Arteta struggled too
The 3 games isn't a defence of him. You maybe misconstruing what the point is here.
3 games into the season and he is delivering the same shit football that was served last year. In between, he got a seal of approval from the new management, signed some players and had another full pre-season. Lot of time has been given to him to refine his tactics so as to not keep conceding like crazy. But nothing seems to have changed.
This football style did not start this season. Last season, many gave him the benefit of doubt because of ridiculous number of injuries that meant the team was constantly changing and because the club was still being run by Murtough and co.
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I think his position is untenable. But Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox don't want to throw Brailsford and co. under the bus for allowing him to stay on this season by sacking him already. They'll likely give him until the next international break to turn things around.
Well I'll say this, Ten Hag's focus on the team pressing high is not reaping many rewards in terms of goals and as we've seen so far is detrimental to our defending.
No, I want you to explain to me this model, you have watched preseason games and four official games, so I would appreciate if you can tell me how the current game model differs from what ETH has done for the better part of two years.
Otherwise, I don't know how you can use it as an argument because it's not an official position held by the club and it's also not a visible reality. It's just something that a paper wrote and that paper shows its own skepticism by labeling it as "the so-called game mode".
The reality is that nothing has changed, there is no new game model even the one specific thing mentioned in that article, the pressing scheme that routinely exposes our midfield hasn't changed.
"The game model" sounds a little like high minded flatulence to say that the club would rather we don't Rasa la Tabula every manager and we don't have to buy super specialised players / pieces to fit an unorthodox game plan.
I assume it will include playing 4 at the back, 3 at the front including two wingers and also having Bruno.
I assume it will include playing 4 at the back, 3 at the front including two wingers and also having Bruno.
It's HR speak, for "Don't you worry, we are actually doing things. We swear."
It's actually 117 games of his tenure, but whatever.
Conor Moore's impression of EtH is so good. The thing EtH does with his mouth.
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