My wanting ETH sacked has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we’re missing sitters. In fact last season when we had our good run post Xmas I still wanted him gone because the game state was unreliable and at the time we were running very hot in front of goal which was getting us results (at one point Hojlund had scored with 6 of his last 7 shots or something).
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
My wanting ETH sacked has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not we’re missing sitters. In fact last season when we had our good run post Xmas I still wanted him gone because the game state was unreliable and at the time we were running very hot in front of goal which was getting us results (at one point Hojlund had scored with 6 of his last 7 shots or something).
Quite funny when you watch it really.
The bolded part.
Then, it's opposite of it really in a real world.
The easiest way to play accurate passes, is not even through pass master players... is through passing the ball to very close teammate. Even Xavi the generational pass master, did this frequently over a decade. Even Kross.
By you passing the ball to your team mate, 5 yards away. The risk of mispass is very low.
But even a Xavi specimen would struggle in passing the ball to a United team mate frequently in this current setup. It would amount to threading passes through multiple players on half turn, after being pressed by 2-3 players.
So even if we buy a Xavi and Scholes, we wont achieve much because the current setup is extremely flawed. It's a system of chance not sustained quality.
By the way, give me coaching of United, the easiest thing to do and I do it very fast, is squeezing the pitch, compress the play.
Ole did this, but his back line was too backwards, thus it necessitated to play counter attack. As defence fell to back.
Thus we just need to set up 10-15 yards more forward. Whoever can't play in a compressed team should leave.
By 2025 we go another 10 yard forward, till we get the desired shape which brings desired results. This is also what Arteta did very easily and it changed Arsenal fortunes.
It's what Pep is a master of.
I've not invented anything. You're out here lazily making assumptions that two of our signings were pursued by Ten Hag and not INEOS because of their nationality.Speaking of braindead logic why are leaughing at something you've invented? When did I say their careers overlapped?
Yeah of course it is.
And hilariously, you seem to dispute a game model by INEOS despite being briefed to multiple tier one journalists. It's one thing not believing one journalist, but burying your head in the sand with all of them is nothing short of laughable.
Obviously because our players like Licha, Maguire, Varane, and Casemiro are injured right?
So why are you talking about Ten Hag and Zirkzee's careers not overlapping then? Show me where I've claimed this.
You're claiming zirkzee is pushed by him. If your only premise was on nationality and not some insinuation that he's seen Zirkzee closely on any league on top then it's an even more shameful evaluation than I thought.
Yes, there’s no doubt we are creating, and missing, a lot of chances - top of the league in one aspect, unfortunately. Problem is we are so open in midfield that even if we convert some of those chances the opposition will still create plenty. I think we’ve got a really good back 4 now when Shaw and Yoro are fit, probably best in the league. But - we have a nonexistent midfield. Ugarte will doubtless help to improve that, but won’t solve the problem on his own. We continually get swamped in that area and that’s down to tactics, formation and coaching. ETH needs to fix that fast. We can argue if we’ve got enough strength up front, and that’s fair - but we simply have to fix the midfield situation quickly, as even lower table teams will exploit this gaping hole.
What are you talking about now? Are you seriously trying to claim Ten Hag hasn't preferred Dutch and Dutch league players?
You make shit up and then spout absolute waffle to squirm out of it instead of just holding your hands up and admit you're talking shit.
Do us both a favour mate and don't reply to my posts anymore if they upset you so much. The first post says no feuds and yet here you are starting an argument.
He's like a bad parody of Mourinho doing his "three times" thing, except Mourinho's three weren't tinpot trophies
We're only going around in circles because you refuse to make a suggestion. The issue is that you want Ten Hag sacked immediately, to be replaced by an imaginary manager.
The team who's job it is to find the replacement haven't found one yet, so if you're going to defer to their choice of manager, you have to accept that they haven't found anyone better yet.
Don't worry, the chances of us sticking with him next season are slim, and that's a much better approach in my book as it means we can get the right manager in, rather than throwing a random caretaker at it and hoping for the best.
I'd like you to provide posts for the bit in bold, as I'm unaware of any currently available coaches that are proven better.
If you're including De Zerbi in that it's laughable. He has an objectively worse CV; he's never managed a top team, has spent most of his managerial career as a jourmeyman in Italy before one good season in the PL that was followed by a monumental collapse, and most importantly he's demonstrated all of the big problems we have with Ten Hag but to a worse degree.
Mate, if we went on a run and got to 2nd in the league with a +35 GD, I’d gladly change my mind and be Ten Hag in. He’s not getting sacked for the next few weeks. For us, mediocrity is sackable. For me, that’s 20-30 matches. If the manager isn’t showing something by then, they should be gone. That seems harsh, but I think our pedigree is a top 5/10 club in the world. That’s Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, Juventus, Man United, Liverpool & Man City (unfortunately) and maybe AC Milan. At that level the requirements are different. You have to deliver quickly.
I don’t know why there are some in the Caf that don’t have that mentality. Sometimes the cliches hurt us… the old “standards have dropped” don’t really paint an accurate picture. We make more money than just a few clubs. We should be achieving more.
Problem is that just sticking with ETH because the dream manager doesn't exist is even more flawed. ETH is tanking the club, the ETH lovers seem to hate on the anyone but ETH comment but genuinely I believe that the absence of a manager would be preferable he is that inept.
Last year we lost £80+ million revenue due to our shocking results (carrying on into this season), our points scored over the last dozen or so games would have us in the relegation places, and you can forget about succeeding in Europe if last seasons debacle is anything to go on.
If we just keep with ETH then we are potentially damaging the club finances and the team for the next manager.
I am not party to inside information to know the availability of managers, but I would certainly get Tuchel in, I am not the biggest fan but we would see an immediate improvement with him, and okay so maybe there might be more attractive options in the summer which we have cut ourselves off from but it is a heck of a long way to get to the summer, the longer we stick with ETH the worse state the club will be in and the harder the job will be.
Does anyone remember why the Tuchel deal fell through? Was it because of finances?
Probably realised he’s arguably the most difficult man alive and blows up dressing rooms for fun. Good coach, mind you, but I’m not sure Ineos wanted his drama.
You've listed a bunch of managers who aren't available (with some that are silly, like Frank, come on).
Wanting him sacked at the end of the season and replaced with a proven alternative is reasonable. Nagelsmann is my ideal appointment, I'd make the swap in a second. But if you want him sacked now, then we'd need to replace him now, which means you either know of a manager who's available that you have good reason to think will do a better job, or you want to roll the dice. The latter simply isn't a rational approach.
As for your first paragraph, there isn't a job you can apply for that doesn't require a CV, skills and past experience provide evidence that someone is capable of a job. Football management is no different, a calculated gamble on a good manager with appropriate experience is a rational change, whereas having no idea who to appoint is change for changes sake.
I think it’s much more dastardly than that mate. SAF was always behind as well, but managed to solidify the team and put together a run before and through Christmas.
Ten Hag had been bad in prep and tactics
Regardless of the sacking/keeping discussion, I have to imagine everyone on the coaching and management side at the club can see how open we are, and surely are working on addressing it. I mean, surely they and even the players have to be asking questions now? I'd love to know what the coaching team imagine this approach might work when everyone plays perfectly. Have we ever witnessed it in a meaningful match? ETH must have a convincing argument but I've never heard him make it.
Holy crap, this is so bad. This video shows why I don't blame the players. They are put in absolutely impossible situations in this system. No squad in the history of football would be successful playing like this for 90 mins every week.
Our midfielders
I agree with you partially, yes playing simple passes and progressing not everytime we have the ball should work in our favour.
But that’s not how this apparent system works, it just relies on extremely fast transitions, just like Liverpool did under Klopp. If we spend too much time on the ball, the opposition will fall back and we are stuck attacking a low block.
Klopp had exactly the midfielders you describe in your post. Kept it simple in passing, but absolute monsters when out of possession. Covered ground like anything shielded by a prime Fabinho. And a defence that plays high with fb’s in the opposition half.
Just going by the games I saw, our midfielders/ attackers are way too imprecise and rely on volume rather than making decisive actions. A pass just behind on the counter/ attacker running offside, we waste so many transitions. Compare ours to the trio on Salah, Firmino and Mane, we are no way near to getting clinical in final third.
Just giving it a month or two more will make it clear if the new players can fit together. And can finally end the debate of ten hag in or out.
If I have to put forward my opinion, if we stick with ten hag, we will be in the rebuilding phase for another year. Reaching the point of sunk cost philosophy.
If you sack him, you have to replace him, unless you're suggesting going manager less will improve things? If so, you need to provide your reasoning. Same with Ruud, what reasoning do you have to think he'll do a better job? Saying he couldn't be any worse is just irrational, as that's an obvious falsehood.
From the names you listed, all have question marks. Xavi and Potter are the only ones that really fit the kind of proactive football we want to play. Tuchel has question marks given he finished second in a one horse race in Germany last season, and Zidane is interesting but it's unlikely he'll come here.
Tuchel didn’t even finish second, he finished third.
You have evidently lost track of the debate - so let me remind you.
You claimed most the signings were Ten Hag's pushes, and bucketed De Ligt and Zirkzee into that. You were then reminded about how De Ligt was actually an INEOS signing, per multiple tier one reports and Ten Hag's own words - but chose to bury your head in the sand because you know - dutch innit.
Then you were reminded Zirkzee was a 2nd choice behind Sesko, and actually fits the Ashworth mould more than the Ten Hag one. But you ignored that and claimed it has to be Ten Hag's choice because you know - dutch innit.
This isn't feuding by the way - I just called out your lack of proper foundation and cited multiple sources that pointed to the contrary. And you've called these sources "waffle", suggesting you must be right because, well, dutch innit.
Anyway lets draw a line, your reasoning makes me chuckle and that's about all I can say.
After what we saw last season and starting to see this season, I don't share that confidence. It seems like we try to do a few things in a regular game. It doesn't work and we conceded 10 shots or more in the game. Depending on the skills of the opposition team's finishers, we either lose or escape with a draw or a win. We rinse, repeat same thing in the next game and spend the entire game, dangerously close to losing.
Ah yeah fair point, I know Slot is flavour of the month after the start he's had. He's probably helped if anything by not having any new signings as he can just concentrate on getting the best from the players he has, and not having to integrate new signings. Hopefully he'll bring in a few Antonys or Onanas of his own into the Liverpool squad!
But as a 1v1 tactical match up on Sunday, it was shocking and embarrassing how easy it was for Slot. I thought after last season, winning 1 and drawing 2 against Liverpool, Ten Hag had got a handle on how to play them and we were past the era of taking hammerings from them. Obviously not!
I personally think the writing being on the wall is all over these statements. They made sure to point out that neither Berrarda or Ashworth decided to keep him. Ashworth stated specifically what he would be judged on, making it clear that all the responsibilities that were felt to be holding him back have been taken off. They made the point to state they will be working closely with him. It all smells of Ten Hag being under the cosh internally, which is what I've always wanted. Its telling that he's handling the media and internal pressure this badly. I don't think our managers were previously put under the required internal pressure to perform until it was too late.
But also one fundamental thing, probably you forget is... Liverpool
1. Had genuine midfielders. Who could run, muscle you out, run with the ball. Us we don't have anything of that sort. Bruno and Casemiro are one second pass merchants. Both physically they can't bully anyone. All Mainoo, Case, Bruno did bounce off opponents on Sunday. They were tackled, then Liverpool scored.
2. Liverpool had defence which squeezed the pitch. Vvd would bring the defence line higher up, thus the area of operation of defence, midfielders to chase for the ball, and strikers being just on offside line was very close. This create the loop of everybody being near each other.
3. Strike force of Salah, Mane was levels higher than us. A). In pressing, counter pressing and finishing.
So as you can see, we have absolutely nothing like what Liverpool had. So it's suicidal to expect to play like Liverpool when even the 3 fundamentals of the team is flawed.
A beg even, Onana and Allison are two different specimen..
That's why we don't progress. By the way it's very easy to see our problems but I don't know why people don't see it...
You see how other managers can easily explain how to beat us,, yes that way. Others see it, but majority of us don't see.
It's highly unlikely Tuchel would take the job as a caretaker, especially after we turned him down in the summer.
It isn't the perfect manager, that's a misrepresentation of my point, but we do need a manager that we have a reasonable expectation of things improving under, the reasoning for which you should be able to articulate. For a long term appointment we'd need them to have a proactive footballing approach too.
The club evidently haven't identified anyone who will improve things immediately, or they'd be in the position.
Yeah pretty much how I felt going into this year, but for some reason the other side isn’t the same way. I swear some of the prominent Ten Hag defenders were saying back in Feb that if it didn’t turn around soon they’d change their minds (because I asked and was genuinely curious what would change their viewpoints), yet it’s now September and they defend him to the death at every point.
And I think everyone’s point that’s arguing with you is that there’s a high probability of a number of managers, interim or not, improving things over what current performances and results have been for almost 18 months now.
Time to sack and let RVN take over the season. I really hope that board is fast and fourios on this one. Been too poor for the longest time.
It's wild how we seem to spend so much money every summer, but our team remains utterly crap. Liverpool have hardly spent anything for two years and still have a much better team.
Last summer's window was one of our worst ever so that didn't help. Mount and Onana were a huge waste of money and the jury is still out on Hojlund.
@SparcMac made a good point. Tied with Liverpool, the club with most big chances missed https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_missed
If half of those chances were scored, then we'd have at least one more win. You must agree they are defending better - the problem is the midfield, which wasn't strengthened aside from Ugarte, whom hasn't played yet.
I've said it countless times, at the end of the day it's the results that matter - but progress has been made as United are playing a bit better than majority of last season. It's still not good enough but United have fallen so far behind that all everyone wants to see is progress; and that's being made.
Yeah. Because football is a game of 11 players.
No more.
It's how you setup the 11 guys determines alot. Yes quality players help in achieving that, and yes United as an entity can, will also attract best players, so it's just very easy to construct a good team. Just get the elite blueprint then execute it, by trying to sign competent players.
But now we have a mismatched players to how we expect to play, very peculiar talents plus very peculiar tactics = this unknown game plans.
Like here below is Onana. Compare him to Allison or Ederson, or Schmeichel.. Can Onana really deliver us to PL or Champions League glory?
Just look at him here
Are you new to football or something? First season watching maybe?
“Unavailable” managers will happily leave clubs for new opportunities if the right offer is made. Clubs sack managers mid season and manage to find replacements mid season, every single season. The idea that this is somehow beyond Man Utd and Ineos is laughable. You’re delusional if you really think they wouldn’t be able to lure a replacement if they really went after one. The idea that this change has to wait until the end of the season is just nonsense to anyone who knows anything about the managerial merry-go-round that is football. And it’ll be proved as such if Ten Hag fails to get this team playing very soon, because if he doesn’t, Ineos will take action long before then. We’re three games in and the pressure is already building.
But as I predicted, this is just a disingenuous distraction tactic that aims to deflect from the real question about whether Ten Hag is the right man whilst picking holes in any names put forward. It’s a bad faith argument that everyone you’re engaging with can see coming a mile away.
Changing an underperforming manager for a new one is not change for change sake. It’s specifically and deliberately done in an attempt to improve the performance of the team. You keep dodging that point but incessantly repeating a cliche doesn’t lend it any credence.
No manager in the world, whatever their CV or experience, is guaranteed to succeed, so yes, every new appointment is a roll of the dice to some extent. Welcome to football. But sticking with a manager who keeps setting new records for terrible results is also rolling the dice. You’re just knowingly rolling a dice that has a history of rolling ones and twos.
It's ridiculous but as another poster has already pointed out, some people will try to tell you that clubs like Brighton have better players than us - they don't, they just don't understand levels in football and the difference between playing for a top club and a middling club.
We should be beating these teams and beating them comfortably. You expect to come unstuck from time to time because every dog has its day and also variance can bite you...but under EtH we are matched or even outplayed by these teams on a regular basis.
I mostly don't even bother getting my hopes up when we're playing any top half team away from home. You know what you'd get at Brighton if you paid attention at all in the past 3 years. And yeah nothing to do with quality, there's a reason why the likes of Palace, Newcastle etc. can play us off the park.