That’d basically indicate there was nothing wrong with performance as it merited 75 points (a very respectable tally which would have comfortably earned us a top 4 spot) only biased referees took 15 away.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
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Frank might use that games as an ‘interview’. In the 4 games they’ve played so far Brentford won the first 4-0, we then narrowly beat them 1-0 in return leg in 22-23, and last season we pulled off the miracle 2-1 McTominay comeback at OT and got a 1-1 win we didn’t deserve at their ground (they probably outplayed us worse than they did in a 4-0 but couldn’t finish). Fair to say Brentford were the much better team in two of these games, one was close and one we were slightly better in.
It would be my biggest concern as I think that ability to change a game with your subs is what separates the good managers from the great managers and United really should have a great manager.
I'm not comparing his overall ability to Southgate (as I think EtH is the far superior manager) but I remember watching England vs France in the World Cup semis and feeling that the French were there for the taking early in the second half, England had the momentum and a great manager would have used his subs to take advantage but Southgate couldn't do it and the French were able to triumph.
If you look at the decisions against us last season it’s really not difficult to argue. 15 points is if we were Liverpool like and had the benefit of every fecking decision but 7-10 points really isn’t unreasonable.
To be fair I don’t keep track of that, I don’t usually like to point to referee’s errors as the reason my team couldn’t win as it tends to go both ways and even itself out over the course of season usually. I only remember Romero’s handball and Garnacho’s disallowed goal.
If true that puts a huge asterisk on last year though and may have been something INEOS took into consideration when assessing his performance, as it basically means he got us playing well enough to comfortably finish 4th.
Hojlund goal ruled ball out of play despite no conclusive angle. Exactly the same happened later in the season and the procedure was “if there’s no evidence to rule a goal out you can’t just guess” funnily enough.
Rodri dive called back 2 mins later by Oliver.
Garnacho offside goal
Hojlund hauled down by Gabriel in same match.
Romero handball
Fulham “Maguire offside” (didn’t cost points in the end)
Luis Dunk handball.
Elliot dive against Liverpool - zero contact.
Two Chelsea penalties both obvious dives one with zero contact.
That’s just off the top of my head.
I think it's perfectly logical to expect better than what we have right now.
I would be interested to know how he decides on substitutions, obviously if there are injuries that dictates a change, however you wonder if he decides who is coming on and off before a game starts rather than making them with regards to the current situation of the game. Some of his subs are really odd at times. I can understand if someone is coming back from injury and they can only play so many minutes. I have probably answered my own question as all our players bar very few seem to be perpetually coming back from injury.
Another delulu.
We saw Ole saying the exact same thing, ‘we have come so close’ while we were getting shittier and shittier.
I am always a bit wary of the how well we train thing. Surely that is presuming how the other team are going to play themselves and then what if they pull a flanker on you. Can he react to that. Can he change things to counteract theirs.
Every other team's fans will also have their own list.
Xg had us 14th last season and it definitely stacked up with the eye test.
More hysteria.
I can’t help posting in a hysterical manner. 14th is totally normal.
But boo the players. Interesting concept for sure.
In all seriousness, the fact it looks like he’s survived the latest run of results is actually scary. Standards are truly lowered to a level I thought id never see.
We used to laugh at Liverpool and Arsenal, and they were never this bad. This is unprecedented for a club of our stature.
We used to laugh at Liverpool and Arsenal, and they were never this bad. This is unprecedented for a club of our stature.
But he’s the one who’s been given the majority of say over a £600m spending haul and has somehow made us worse in the league
It’s on him
But he seems to have somehow manipulated people into thinking it’s not on him. It’s actually impressive. If he used that skill towards winning the league we’d win it every year
The struggles we face aren't due to injuries—we perform just as poorly without them.
It's not the players, either. Ten Hag has brought in 14-15 new signings?
Nor is it bad luck or referees—he's been here long enough for us to set aside those theories.
The consistent poor performances and results ultimately come down to our manager.
It's not the players, either. Ten Hag has brought in 14-15 new signings?
Nor is it bad luck or referees—he's been here long enough for us to set aside those theories.
The consistent poor performances and results ultimately come down to our manager.
I don’t buy it’s all on refs myself but the same can be said both ways in terms of manipulation and people remembering things differently depending on their view on Ten Hag.
The conversation came about as @Fortitude suggested the only reason he won the FA Cup was because the referee didn’t do his job properly against Coventry. He’s not clarified what he meant specifically but I’m thinking he’s referring to the goal they scored that was ruled offside by VAR at the end of the match.
Obviously that goal was correctly given offside so you can see how views become skewed.
Understood!
So we think we're brilliant in training but then shit when we actually play other teams?
I can relate to that actually when I was a kid I would play in the back garden on my own and I was brilliant. But then when I played with other kids I was a bit rubbish. So this must be a very real phenomena that ruined not only my potential football career but it's also ruining Ten Hag's United career.
And I agree with Benny if we can't get Pep to leave City we might as well stick with Erik as obviously he's the worlds 2nd best coach.
Optimistic. I like it.
Read up on 1974.
To be fair we grew significantly during the 90s and early 2000s. Not only commercially and reputation but we also won about 2 thirds of everything we have ever won in our history.
Totally different stature to when we were relegated.
I mean I’d say European Cup winners being relegated would have been a big thing.
Another poster said this was the worst period in the clubs history since World War 2.
There’s definitely a level of hysteria in this thread.
If this was any other club, honestly we'd be laughing at them. "My training is amazing, but when we play so badly we can't believe it".
The other thing is, and I mean this with respect as he knows more about the game than me, but how well equipped is he to make judgement?
Think it is more people thinking it can't happen because we are Manchester United. It can but as you say surely we are commercially strong enough that it won't.
This makes it look as if ETH is bombing since 2 years which is not the case. I have no issues criticizing him, even moving on from him. And from what I see in this thread this applies to pretty much anybody. But we have to make sure, we have the situation analysed, we know what the issues are and how to remedy them. It is a difference whether the tactics in itself are a problem or whether the way we implemented (or didn't succeed to). All this talk of ETH having too much credit in the bank for some fans, to me this sounds like a strawman - the essential question is what is the plan after sacking the manager. And when it turns out, the only viable outcome is some bs interim on top of pissing 17 million away then thats just as plausible as an outlook as the story of "bring in anybody and we will salvage the season".
The only explanation I have for the current situation is, that INEOS potential candidates aren't available mid season and maybe not even last summer. And while it is easy for fans to say "take anybody, it can't get worse" they take a more conservative approach, which isn't so catchy and effectful as many fans would want it to. Whether thats the right approach, I don't know. But my feeling is that the notion of "bring in anybody" has potential to do more harm than good. And when there is no viable option out there, find other ways to go forward.
I do not remember all of these, but lots are subjective. For example, I remember Chelsea penalties being penalties. Garnacho offside goal (assuming against Arsenal) is not even subjective, it was a VAR ruled offside, as objective as it gets.
Then of course, there were referee decisions that went in our favor, starting from Obama not getting a penalty (and potentially getting sent off) in the very first match.
Honestly, this is stuff we used to laugh at Scousers when we were good and they were shit. There were all types of conspiracy theories going wild in RAWK, how referees help us and are against them. Now that our futures have been reversed, unsurprisingly, we are the ones to bitch about how referees help Liverpool and are against us. It makes no sense at all when you consider that United being good is good for the EPL, and we are a very midtable team that does not justify a conspiracy theory with referees and the FA being against us. We’re shit mate, no need to pretend that we wouldn’t be without referees fault (which based in your +15 points means that we would have finished comfortably in UCL zone and actually had a quite decent season).
"I know this isn't good enough and it's the job of senior management to find an acceptable solution quickly to quell the bleeding."
Is a totally reasonable statement and should be totally achievable without ruining any long term plans. It is equally as acceptable whether you have a suggestion on who that should be or not.
Truth is none of us have the faintest idea whether Ruud, Frank, Tuchel, Nagelsman or whoever would be a the right fit and get things going in the right direction. Loads of us wanted Mourinho and Van Gaal and Ten Hag. We aren't experts.
The last 18 months have been unacceptable. It looks as though it may get worse or at best level out to last seasons unacceptable level. I'd rather not throw the season away and I don't buy the idea that our very experienced football board can't find someone who can get better performances and results than we are seeing.
Well when you listen to the VAR footage of Bruno's red against Spurs, you can hardly blame the conspiracy theorists. Sounded like a bloke in the pub yelling for Bruno to be sent off.
ETH has been bombing since the last few months of his first season, we were dropping off a cliff in terms of scoring and performances, some how beat NU in the cup final despite them being the better team, the next season as we know was atrocious, but hey lets for the sake of argument say that it was ALL down to injuries and not to a system which left a depleted defence exposed, lets forget about setting the records for petty much the worst ever season domestically and in Europe for any Utd team in living memory... lets not say that when he came in he tried to implement his ridiculous system and we got hammered, he then reverted to Ole-ball for the majority of the first season and got limited success before switching back to the stupidest system in world football, lets ignore the atrocious football we are seeing this season, lets ignore the shitty results, after all he needs at least another £600m and 3 more windows before we can properly assess him..... trust the process!
the difference between finishing 14th which is where we are and where we were performing before we picked up any injuries and 8th place is worth £22m finishing 4th would be worth another £11m, winning the Europa league would be worth around another £25m in prize money alone, just getting to the final is worth £12m.... getting in any decent manager in, hell even Ruud as a caretaker is almost certain to get us a net profit on the £17m it will cost to rid us of ETH, like I have said even a dinosaur like Warnock would net us a profit compared to the bald waste of space we currently have, TBH we should actually be praising ETH because with the amount spent on this side and the squad we have actually getting them to perform so badly is surely harder than getting them to play half way decent football
For all we know, last summer they might have agreed that as long we're not in danger of being relegated they'll stick with ETH because the replacement options during the season are more limited. If so I'd expect they already have replacements in mind and they're not available right now. There might even be a release clause in the contract based on performance.
It's increasingly clear that they've backed the wrong horse but that doesn't nessecarily mean the best thing to do for the club long term is to sack him right now.
It's increasingly clear that they've backed the wrong horse but that doesn't nessecarily mean the best thing to do for the club long term is to sack him right now.
Dude, seriously calm down. If you read my post and got the notion that I tried to transport the message "trust the process" then something is wrong with your perception. If you want to be furious, go on. But lets not act as if you try to have a reasonable debate about the current status quo.
And once again - those "ridiculous tactics" are in place at Arsenal and City and many more teams. Difference is, they execute them way better. Which is something ETH should be heavily criticized for.
But thats not how it works mate. You can lose games due to bad luck, heck there was a fecking beach ball one year that influenced a match. I get your gist, of course we would be better off getting rid to bring in somebody who will bring better results but that part is where there simply are no guarantees. While the 17 million are set in stone once we pull the trigger.
And just to be clear - I am not saying that this is the only reason not to do it. But if you have no idea who you can bring in to take over, then acting simply for the sake of it becomes actionism and impulsive. The opposite of smart and foreseeing.
My god the Hysteria is palpable!
Won't someone, anyone do something?
Won't someone, anyone do something?
This is neither something I said, nor something I reacted to.
I agree. We aren't. Applies to the fans who think "bring in anybody, can't get worse" and it applies to the fans who say "well if we don't a clue who to bring in, then lets keep it as it is for now".
The last 10 (maybe even more) years have been unacceptable in terms of how we acted as a football club. At some point, the consequences of our bad decisions would mount and they would hurt. They do now when we finally brought in somebody who was supposed to update our football to a level, 80% of clubs out there are already on. Will ETH be able to achieve that? No I guess he won't and who knows, maybe he'll get burned on the way, personally not an issue with it. But the direction we've taken is the right one. Positional fluidity, organized pressing, patterns of play and building from the back - those things aren't inventions of ETH and we have to continue that path. Even if it hurts for a while longer. Obviously, there most likely is somebody out there who can achieve that better than ETH does and when he is avaiblable, go for it. But talk about bringing in Ole or Warnock or stuff like that tells me that some fans undervalue the issue we have at hand - middle- and longterm wise.
I know the tenseness is contagious ^^Settle down mate, you're getting yourself worked up in here.
Maybe he meant “could” rather than “would”. Which is fair, we almost went out to Coventry
Something doesn’t add up.
If it’s how McCarthy seems to think it is, then the coaching team is deluded as to what a good training session is, or the players have a mental breakdown when it comes to match day.
Both scenarios boil back to the manager. He bought a load of those players so he knows how they train and if they are mentally strong.
If the coaching teams are exaggerating how well training is going then it’s his remit.
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