Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

[flameinthesun]

There are some acting like is pressing is something new, when we did it last season as well. We just are not leaving that huge space in midfield anymore. Our biggest problem has always been on the ball, and creating good chances, that is still largely the same and has not change.

We press, get the ball and promptly lose it in an idiotic way, and then have to do the running all over again. It is no mystery we let so many late goals in, the players are tired after all the running we do at the start that we are vulnerable at the end.

Yeah I have similar sentiments. The press is actually pretty good. Our playing out from the back is good.

Our decision making and ability to keep possession is whats killing us and contributing to the basketball style of matches which leaves our players gassed, by the time the team pushed up our attackers have already lost the ball. The amount of times in a game you will see the following is insane:
- A casemiro blind pass that gives the ball away
- A Bruno speculative pass/trick/flick that gives the ball away
- A Rashford/Garnacho attempt to dribble past 2 defenders from a low possibility position
- A simple pass usually from a Rashford that is behind a player
- An inability from an attacker to just hold on to the ball and bring others into play

When you look at Peps possession play and now Arteta's, half the time why it seems boring is to cut out losing the ball at inopportune times and to allow the team to get up the pitch and pin the other team in. This means less energy spent, easier to counter press and control games. We all know this, even Klopp knew this hence why he started to implement if more. So it should be no surprise that when we have Bruno spamming balls away, Rashford/Garnacho losing ball on counters and Casemiro giving simple passes away that we struggle to control matches. No wonder our players are consistently gassed in the last 20 minutes.

I hope if we get Ugarte in that we can at least improve on the Casemiro point as he seems much more comfortable on the ball in tight spaces and is safer with it. I'd keep playing Amad as he contributes so much more to our possession play and I'd consider trying Mount or Zirkzee from the left. I honestly think we will struggle to control games when you have 2 or 3 of Bruno/Rashford/Garnacho playing as they are mavericks who are just naturally careless with the ball.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think Brighton illustrated yesterday that you can conserve energy quite well against United. They picked the perfect times to relentlessly press and when to hold a good high line with great compactness.

Fundementally this United side don't really worry the opposition with the ball.
You just need to be compact and get ahead with the constant loose balls.

The constant back and forth between Onana, the CBs and Cms yesterday must have given the Brighton management great confidence.

United don't the know what to do with the ball when in possession.

 

[VP89]

I think Brighton illustrated yesterday that you can conserve energy quite well against United. They picked the perfect times to relentlessly press and when to hold a good high line with great compactness.

Fundementally this United side don't really worry the opposition with the ball.
You just need to be compact and get ahead with the constant loose balls.

The constant back and forth between Onana, the CBs and Cms yesterday must have given the Brighton management great confidence.

United don't the know what to do with the ball when in possession.

Think thatl grow with the coaching staff implementing their ideas. Ruud has influence the offensive training.

But Brighton are also under a new coach, he's a lot more balanced than De Zerbi it seems and prove to be a similar test for other teams. I'm interested to see how they fare vs Arsenal who have been bailed out by Raya in key moments vs both Wolves and Villa so far.

 

[RedorDead21]

Yeah I have similar sentiments. The press is actually pretty good. Our playing out from the back is good.

Our decision making and ability to keep possession is whats killing us and contributing to the basketball style of matches which leaves our players gassed, by the time the team pushed up our attackers have already lost the ball. The amount of times in a game you will see the following is insane:
- A casemiro blind pass that gives the ball away
- A Bruno speculative pass/trick/flick that gives the ball away
- A Rashford/Garnacho attempt to dribble past 2 defenders from a low possibility position
- A simple pass usually from a Rashford that is behind a player
- An inability from an attacker to just hold on to the ball and bring others into play

When you look at Peps possession play and now Arteta's, half the time why it seems boring is to cut out losing the ball at inopportune times and to allow the team to get up the pitch and pin the other team in. This means less energy spent, easier to counter press and control games. We all know this, even Klopp knew this hence why he started to implement if more. So it should be no surprise that when we have Bruno spamming balls away, Rashford/Garnacho losing ball on counters and Casemiro giving simple passes away that we struggle to control matches. No wonder our players are consistently gassed in the last 20 minutes.

I hope if we get Ugarte in that we can at least improve on the Casemiro point as he seems much more comfortable on the ball in tight spaces and is safer with it. I'd keep playing Amad as he contributes so much more to our possession play and I'd consider trying Mount or Zirkzee from the left. I honestly think we will struggle to control games when you have 2 or 3 of Bruno/Rashford/Garnacho playing as they are mavericks who are just naturally careless with the ball.

Is rashford a maverick? He’s been the death knell of every manager since we started thinking he was capable of being a starter it feels like! The ever constant we just can’t rid ourselves of. He’s a spurs player and we need a serious world class striker at this club asap. In the interim we need a number 9 who can score week in week out. I’d take a Vardy in his prime over Rashford..right now I’d take Toney in a heartbeat.

 

[stevoc]

If Joe thinks the manager has so little influence on a teams defensive structure and concentration levels, especially after 2 years then he must also wonder what the point of having a manager even is. Now don't get me wrong I know what he's saying to try to defend ETH here and I don't blame Ten Hag for those mistakes individually but the problem we keep making mistakes and shipping late goals and it's been happening for years now. At some point we have to start asking questions of the manager.

 

[Samid]

League Stats for all below Managers. Added their first 78 games (as today was Ten Hags 78th League Game). Ignored Moyes, mainly because I don't want to think of that season ever again. Worth pointing out that Jose and Ole's downfalls started about now, so imagine there stats will begin to decline now. But technically on a Pts per game ration, Ten Hag is currently 4th highest among the United Managers.

Manager​	Win %​	Loss %​	Clean Sheets​	Games​	W​	D​	L​	GF​	GA​	GD​	Pts​	Pts PG​
Pep​	73.08%​	10.26%​	31​	78​	57​	13​	8​	194​	67​	+127​	184​	2.36​
Jose​	56.41%​	16.67%​	36​	78​	44​	21​	13​	126​	61​	+65​	153​	1.96​
Ole​	53.85%​	20.51%​	24​	78​	42​	20​	16​	138​	86​	+52​	146​	1.87​
Ten Hag​	53.85%​	30.77%​	27​	78​	42​	12​	24​	117​	103​	+14​	138​	1.77​
LVG​	51.32%​	23.68%​	29​	76​	39​	19​	18​	111​	72​	+39​	136​	1.79​
Klopp​	50.00%​	20.51%​	24​	78​	39​	23​	16​	150​	98​	+52​	140​	1.79​
Arteta​	50.00%​	30.77%​	28​	78​	39​	15​	24​	121​	84​	+37​	132​	1.69​
Rangnick​	41.67%​	29.17%​	6​	24​	10​	7​	7​	33​	33​	0​	37​	1.54​

How convenient that you left out the pressing stats. Guess ETH’s Klopp-esque pressing numbers don’t fit your narrative.

 

[TheReligion]

How convenient that you left out the pressing stats. Guess ETH’s Klopp-esque pressing numbers don’t fit your narrative.

Yawn

 

[stevoc]

It really is bud. I want to believe, but it just seems like we're never going to get it together under him. Some were fully convinced that we were impressive against Fulham but I just didn't see it.

Me neither I just put it down to me being a grumpy cnut and generally not having too much optimism about this season. But I think we're in for another bad few months before the club have to end up doing what should have been done last May.

Hope I'm wrong.

 

[giggs-beckham]

Outdone by a 31 year old manager whose system is not even fully implemented and he's likely to be outdone by a compatriot Dutch baldy in his first PL season next weekend. I have low expectations with Ten Hag at the helm. Nothing has changed

With James Milner in midfield

 

[stevoc]

I’m 99% sure that Ten Hag is not the guy to take us back to title challengers. But I think in the three competitive matches we’ve had so far we’re much improved from last season. We concede fewer shots, we’re less chaotic, and the basketball matches have ended.

Granted, we still look a little toothless, but the build up is better and we’re creating good chances. We’re not taking them. I’d like us to be more fluid and create more of the good opportunities, but this doesn’t feel the same as last season.

Ultimately it won’t matter if we keep losing, Ten Hag will lose his job. But I think it’s a better set up offensively and defensively so far. Fingers crossed it bears more fruit, starting against Liverpool.

True but we were so hopelessy bad last season that that's not saying much.

 

[Chelsea Dubbing]

The minute I saw the team sheet I knew we'd lose. What's changed from last year? It's all so fekin basic. Forget possession play, false number 9s and double pivot bollox, it will always come down to the level of players on the pitch.

We needed another front man, so we bought Zirkzee. Did we play him? No. We bench him.

We needed a decent CB to partner Martinez so bought De Ligt. Did we play him? No, we bench him.

We know Rashfords not up to scratch and Garnachos better. Do we play Garnacho? No, we bench him.

We know Mainoo and Casemiro don't have the stamina for a full game. Have we addressed the midfield? No. We run them into the ground.

We know Brunos not a striker. So where do we play him? As a striker.

We know Mount's playing in the traditional Bruno creative role. So do we keep him on all game? No we take him off.

Mistake, after mistake, after mistake. All you have to do if you want to beat United, is weather the initial storm. Wait 60 minutes for Mainoo and Casemiro to start breathing out their arse then start attacking. Eventually you'll run through the gaping holes in midfield and defence because we're spending so much energy trying to score, with players who can't. Job done. United can't last 96 mins.

I was firmly in the ETH in for the last 2 years, but that team selection for me yesterday was the final straw. If you're going to buy new players, fekin play em!!

 

[Ludens the Red]

Me neither I just put it down to me being a grumpy cnut and generally not having too much optimism about this season. But I think we're in for another bad few months before the club have to end up doing what should have been done last May.

Hope I'm wrong.

Nah mate. You just saw it for what it was.

 

[BeretWearingEnt]

True but we were so hopelessy bad last season that that's not saying much.

It isn’t saying much. But the improvement is there, and that’s all we can hope to see. The idea that with our transfer business and the new coaching changes in place for about 3 weeks we’ll be dramatically improved is fanciful at best.

Better structure and consistency of performance should give us better results over the long term. But there will likely be more bumps in road short to mid term.

Whether that happens quickly enough for Ten Hag to continue as manager who knows. I am hoping it’s enough to see him in place until the end of the season with a finish of 4-6 position and reassess from there. I can’t see a mid season change improving our lot at all.

 

[flameinthesun]

Is rashford a maverick? He’s been the death knell of every manager since we started thinking he was capable of being a starter it feels like! The ever constant we just can’t rid ourselves of. He’s a spurs player and we need a serious world class striker at this club asap. In the interim we need a number 9 who can score week in week out. I’d take a Vardy in his prime over Rashford..right now I’d take Toney in a heartbeat.

Maverick in the sense of will try to pull off something even when its highly unlikely to succeed. That being to try and beat 2 players, shoot when he should pass, etc to be unpredictable which is what you want to cut down on in possession play. hence if you have him, Bruno and Garnacho playing at the same time you are opting to have less control of a game in the hopes that one of them pulls something out of the bag which is why I think we can't move forward by playing all three.

Our problem is though that our 2 main wingers in Garnacho and Rashford are really best suited to counter attack football. Neither are that great in possession play, which is why Amad for me should be starting on the right over Garnacho (its also why in his first season, and people forget this, we missed Antony when he was injured because he was the only winger capable of keeping the ball in tight spaces up field which allowed us to get up the pitch). I do think we need to 1 or 2 wingers in next season who are physical enough to handle the premier league but can also play possession play.

As time goes on Ragnick's assessment of the squad is ringing more true.

 

[Amira]

I think he has lowered my standards, so much so that I actually think the first 2 games have been okay (They have not been good by any stretch as some are painting it to be and we have certainly not been in “control” for any long stretches).

In a few more games we’ll know clearly whether we’ve set ourselves back once again by deciding not to move off of him.

 

[Borys]

Mount pressing at the moment seems to be game plan A until he goes off and it’s annoying as others such a Bruno and our wingers needs to be doing it also. Yes Bruno does do it a bit but then when all do it we are exposed in the middle a bit, hence why we need a general in midfield, someone who reads the game great, pick up the second balls, closes down etc. fitness is the issue then, once our press is broken, Mount an Co need to get back quickly, it shouldnt be pressing just in the final third, it should be all over. Quick transitions all over, That has been quoted by ETH so many times, I’ve only seen glimpses so far. He’s trying to implement in a way, pep like football, problem is he hasn’t the players, or he does but they don’t listen, I go with the latter.

But the problem is, pressing is a collective thing. You don't need a team of Mason Mounts, Freds and Kantes to pull this off (although energy does help). The way we do pressing is we push bodies forward, what is a risky tactic because if you're not really good at it, the opposition will pass through first pressing wave and then they only have Casemiro /Mainoo to pass. This is not something that will be net positive unless we have high energy DM, and maybe that's Ugarte.

I don't think we'll ever be a good pressing side with players like Rashford, Bruno, Hojlund, Zirksee. Question marks over Amad and Garnacho as well. I think the manager is trying to implement a style that doesn't work with this squad, but it's his squad now so no excuses anymore.

 

[Dr. T]

After 2 years in the job, out-coached by a 31-year-old in his second game.

We've managed to tighten up the press when Mount is playing, but only by sacrificing a striker. If only we could play the Boehly-patented 4-4-3.

As G.Nev said, we can't use injuries as an excuse anymore. If the injuries persist, there comes a time when you say 'that's just United now'.

Likewise with the defensive brainfarts and individual errors. It's just United now.

Likewise conceding late goals and weak mentality. It's just United now.

If there was at least some level of coaching or style of play that was visible on the pitch, that could point to progress, we'll jump at it. But I can't take 'we look tighter by playing a second midfielder and no striker' as the best evidence of a move in the right direction.

 

[Kopral Jono]

Ten Hag coached a comfortable win yesterday and on another day we would have gone home with all three points.

 

[Judas]

Ten Hag coached a comfortable win yesterday and on another day we would have gone home with all three points.

In this fantasy land how many wives do I have?

 

[NewGlory]

Ten Hag is on very thin ice. I want him to succeed but he has run out of excuses. The only reason he survived last year, even despite FA Cup win, was because INEOS didn't find replacement quickly enough. But now we have an assistant manager in place who is actually a former head coach so INEOS won't even blink to kick Erik out and give the rest of the season to Ruud van Nistelrooy.

I don't think RvN is sitting trying to get him fired, but clearly INEOS is in much stronger position to sack Erik withiut much worry, so he should stop BSing around and sort this shit out ASAP

 

[devilsadvoca8]

Ten Hag is on very thin ice. I want him to succeed but he has run out of excuses. The only reason he survived last year, even despite FA Cup win, was because INEOS didn't find replacement quickly enough. But now we have an assistant manager in place who is actually a former head coach so INEOS won't even blink to kick Erik out and give the rest of the season to Ruud van Nistelrooy.

I don't think RvN is sitting trying to get him fired, but clearly INEOS is in much stronger position to sack Erik withiut much worry, so he should stop BSing around and sort this shit out ASAP

Once we start playing on Thursday (Europa) and Sunday then add in the league cup and Erik refuses to rotate as usual and injuries pile up and results start going left more and more, they'll pull the trigger. He's safe for now, but it's inevitable what will happen, I try not to be negative but it's so clear where we are headed.

 

[That'sHernandez]

Ten Hag is on very thin ice. I want him to succeed but he has run out of excuses. The only reason he survived last year, even despite FA Cup win, was because INEOS didn't find replacement quickly enough. But now we have an assistant manager in place who is actually a former head coach so INEOS won't even blink to kick Erik out and give the rest of the season to Ruud van Nistelrooy.

I don't think RvN is sitting trying to get him fired, but clearly INEOS is in much stronger position to sack Erik withiut much worry, so he should stop BSing around and sort this shit out ASAP

I don't think Ruud is by any means ready to take the step up to managing United... Steve McClaren is a former Eredivisie winner and England manager and by your logic was qualified to take over from ETH.

 

[Jezpeza]

There are some acting like is pressing is something new, when we did it last season as well. We just are not leaving that huge space in midfield anymore. Our biggest problem has always been on the ball, and creating good chances, that is still largely the same and has not change.

We press, get the ball and promptly lose it in an idiotic way, and then have to do the running all over again. It is no mystery we let so many late goals in, the players are tired after all the running we do at the start that we are vulnerable at the end.

I agree with this. Pressing in itself isn't this amazing thing and absolute game plan like some make it out to be. People need to get that. Its great to press and win the ball back high up the pitch but then you need to keep the ball for sustained periods and do something with it. We’ve been average to awful in possession since he arrived here and it doesn't look like much has changed on that front this pre season.

 

[RedRover]

If Joe thinks the manager has so little influence on a teams defensive structure and concentration levels, especially after 2 years then he must also wonder what the point of having a manager even is. Now don't get me wrong I know what he's saying to try to defend ETH here and I don't blame Ten Hag for those mistakes individually but the problem we keep making mistakes and shipping late goals and it's been happening for years now. At some point we have to start asking questions of the manager.

Totally agree. When does he become responsible?

In general terms we were unlucky yesterday. It's a game which either side could have won and this is just the level we’re at - as good as, but not better than a Brighton. We're at best, an upper mid-table side.

I think our subs were poor and it cost us in the end. Brighton made substitutions to win the game, and they won it. Fair play to them. ETH makes poor decisions in selection and substitutions and at the elite level that costs you.

I think it was the wrong call sticking with ETH, especially if it was simply because they weren't convinced by other options - and taking up his option, rather than actually backing him with a new contract indicates that's the case. It's an odd situation.

 

[RedRover]

I don't think Ruud is by any means ready to take the step up to managing United... Steve McClaren is a former Eredivisie winner and England manager and by your logic was qualified to take over from ETH.

He may not be long term, but it makes it much easier to sack a manager and look for a new one if you have someone with experience who can run the first team on an interim basis.

 

[giggs-beckham]

He may not be long term, but it makes it much easier to sack a manager and look for a new one if you have someone with experience who can run the first team on an interim basis.

The fear is that it will be more than an interim basis.

 

[Resonance]

After 2 years in the job, out-coached by a 31-year-old in his second game.

We've managed to tighten up the press when Mount is playing, but only by sacrificing a striker. If only we could play the Boehly-patented 4-4-3.

As G.Nev said, we can't use injuries as an excuse anymore. If the injuries persist, there comes a time when you say 'that's just United now'.

Likewise with the defensive brainfarts and individual errors. It's just United now.

Likewise conceding late goals and weak mentality. It's just United now.

If there was at least some level of coaching or style of play that was visible on the pitch, that could point to progress, we'll jump at it. But I can't take 'we look tighter by playing a second midfielder and no striker' as the best evidence of a move in the right direction.

This narrative keeps popping up. Brighton are a very well drilled team tactically, they have been for years. Bringing in whoever as a replacement isnt going to change this in 2 games.

 

[AneRu]

We are basically a more affluent, less resilient and a thousand times more expensive version of what Tony Pulis or Sean Dyche would achieve if they got their hands on half a billion and change.

 

[Sky1981]

Name one aspect of our team that you can safely say it's well coached

 

[Melville Red]

In this fantasy land how many wives do I have?

Six your majesty.

 

[NewGlory]

I don't think Ruud is by any means ready to take the step up to managing United... Steve McClaren is a former Eredivisie winner and England manager and by your logic was qualified to take over from ETH.

There is a big difference between a dinosaur like Steve McClaren and a promising young manager like Ruud. Not to mention that McClaren's England tenure got him sacked for being the first manager who failed to get England qualify for Euros, not really something to be proud of.

Either way, I have zero doubt that Ruud will be trusted to finish the season if Erik gets sacked around November/Christmas and Erik will be sacked with no hesitation if we are not trending for top 4 position. There will be no excuses and no more extra chances

 

[FootyGirl88]

After 2 years in the job, out-coached by a 31-year-old in his second game.

We've managed to tighten up the press when Mount is playing, but only by sacrificing a striker. If only we could play the Boehly-patented 4-4-3.

As G.Nev said, we can't use injuries as an excuse anymore. If the injuries persist, there comes a time when you say 'that's just United now'.

Likewise with the defensive brainfarts and individual errors. It's just United now.

Likewise conceding late goals and weak mentality. It's just United now.

If there was at least some level of coaching or style of play that was visible on the pitch, that could point to progress, we'll jump at it. But I can't take 'we look tighter by playing a second midfielder and no striker' as the best evidence of a move in the right direction.

Yeah that definitely didn’t happen, we lost yesterday because we fell asleep defensively on two occasions.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Stinking it up by putting the 2-1* assist. Yeah, right.

We lost complete control of the game after those changes.

So he didn’t get an assist then

 

[Dr. T]

Yeah that definitely didn’t happen, we lost yesterday because we fell asleep defensively on two occasions.

He made attacking substitutes to change the game; ETH was forced to take off Mount and our plan A fell to crap. After half time, all they had to do to break our press was wait for the 5 attackers to run aimlessly towards their goal and their keeper would beat the press with one high pass. We then substituted Fernandes for McT and handed all initiative to Brighton.

 

[RedRover]

The fear is that it will be more than an interim basis.

Why would it be?

There's no reason to think that if, down the line, the club decided to part with ETH, they wouldn't go for an appropriate replacement.

 

[HackeyC]

Personally this is all I needed to see from the team. Controlled the game in parts, but the same issues as before are already evident. Recruitment has been good, but will never overcome suspect tactics and poor decision making.

 

[RedRover]

Name one aspect of our team that you can safely say it's well coached

Indeed. Poor at the back - not offering much going forward. Pressing looks good. Sometimes.

 

[Daydreamer]

This narrative keeps popping up. Brighton are a very well drilled team tactically, they have been for years. Bringing in whoever as a replacement isnt going to change this in 2 games.

The key takeaway is the same however you look at it. Either ETH was out-coached by a novice or in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton.

Neither makes good reading.

 

[VP89]

The key takeaway is the same however you look at it. Either ETH was out-coached by a novice or in his third season at United hasn’t managed to tactically set up his team to a level that comfortably exceeds that of Brighton.

Neither makes good reading.

There's no takeaway that can be made two gameweeks in.

 

[eire-red]

Very interesting thread on Twitter, quite promising despite the doom & gloomers

I think we looked good before Brighton's first goal. We pressed well and they had very little meaningful posession.

However, we can't play with Bruno and Mount every game because we lack attacking impetus even more than usual, so what will that look like with Zirkzee / Hojlund in the team?

As promising as the press was, too often Joao Pedro picked up the ball between our defence and midfield because Maguire and Martinez did not follow through with the press and sat off too deep. This is where the whole thing continously breaks down, and ends up in Casemiro and Mainoo looking like a couple of lads trying to complete the bleep test, and ultimately our midfield runs out of legs after 60 minutes.

This is no new phenomenon under EtH, which is why 2 games in there's very little sympathy, and dare I say that the knives are already out for him.