Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

Erik ten Hag

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Our conversation has depressed me. We have so little ability to keep the ball in our CM. Other than Mainoo, who is awesome and brilliant with press resistance but even he is not a great passer. Such a poor level of short and long passing in the midfield. Is it really that impossible to find a Kroos? In the 24 yrs of my watching United we've had what 3 decent passing CMs, Keane Scholes and Carrick. I don't consider Pogba a good short passer. I'm just rambling and ranting. Sigh

I think Mainoo is a good short passer but not great at further distances (or just isn’t confident in it), but in general yes we lack a solid progressive passer from deep, it’s why many like myself are hellbent on bringing in Wharton. Casemiro is maddeningly inconsistent but you can see the difference in our quality when his passing is on point because we can shred teams in quick succession.

Thing is the game has become so physical/athlete based that it’s difficult to find the player that can both compete in duels and match physicality off the ball and also be an artist on it. Very tough profile to find.
 
Basically, Sharky, you were asked to consider matters with regard to context.

When we lost to Liverpool seven nil, it came a week after EtH had ended a six year trophy hoodoo. We finished above Liverpool that season and qualified for another cup final. All this in a season in which EtH inherited a wide range of serious issues, from Ronaldo to a club sale, and was expected himself to be clipped.

Instead, the above poster spouts nonsense as that defeat being ‘unforgivable’, going on to cite other clubs who would not tolerate such blasphemy, without any real hard evidence. This includes Alex Ferguson, who our ‘holier than thou’ fan base demanded we sack in similar circumstances.

A league cup Yes we finished above Liverpool that season by 8 points, the same season that they had a worse injury crisis than we did last year

The difference is they managed to finish 5th, and only 8 points behind us then, ETH on the other hand finished 8th and 22 points behind Liverpool.
 
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I can't imagine how bad of a meltdown this place will go into if we lose to Liverpool.

There is simply no excuse for that game. It's a must win game. If we lose that game, we could spiral down similarly to last season's start.
 
We didn't play badly is not a metric. It just means that we could have been worse and lost the plot completely. We could have had Onana chuck one in, but that didn't happen.
What did we do with our posession? How many shots on target could we muster? How much time did they spend trying to stop us.
No it means if we’re trying to be rational and look for signs of something clicking or see something to believe in, this season (albeit it’s two games) should give a decent bit more optimism. We were atrocious last season in the bulk of games we played.
 
What were Artetas first three league finishes?
To look at the improvement of a team, points total is a far better metric.
Arteta last 5 seasons are-
1st year- 56 points (took over mid season)
2nd year- 61 points
3rd year- 69 points
4th year- 84 points
5th year- 89 points

He improved season after season whilst having no experience before as a manager and that too managing a big club.
 
I’ve seen a lot of posts today saying that Brighton is a tough away fixture for us and that we didn’t play too badly etc. What I haven’t seen mentioned is that Brighton’s team was quite depleted today. Their back 5 (incl. reserve GK) was barely Premier League standard and it was being protected by a 38 year old James Milner. The type of situation that led to embarrassing performances in our last campaign.

The situation for Ten Hag is simple. The best teams of the past 7-8 years (City, Pool, Arsenal) all find a way to squeeze the opposition into their own half, force turnovers, gain territory and create wave after wave of attack. In today’s EPL, that is the proven way to hit 85+ points consistently. The systems are slightly different, but the principles are largely the same. If Ten Hag wants to keep his job and compete, he has to find a way to do the same for us. So far he has both shown and told us all he doesn’t want to play that way. He prefers to keep possession in our own half before launching direct attacks or using the high press to create chances in transition. There is pretty much no point in his tenure that we have had wave after wave of attacks in a game. If he does not bin this idea, and find a way to replicate the former, he will not make it here. For me it’s that black and white.
 
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Last season saw us play some of the most tactically naive football I have ever seen from a top team. There was no progression at all in terms of getting better and more coherent as the season wore on. We completely changed style for the last few games, which got us over the line in the FA cup and saved Ten Hag’s job. But an inch the wrong way in the semi’s, and Coventry would’ve knocked us out and we wouldn’t be here talking about Ten Hag today. A margin that fine for success, when the measurements of failure were overwhelming, really shouldn’t have been enough to keep him employed here.

Despite being massively impressed with Ineos so far, I heavily disagreed with the decision to keep Ten Hag, as I have never seen anything from him as United coach that suggests he is even remotely good enough to lead this club. The way we have started the season is depressingly predictable. With the squad of players he has, and the time he has had to work with them, and the support he’s received, he simply should be doing so much better.

Personally, I think losing 7-0 to Liverpool should be an unsurvivable event for any United manager, bar Ferguson or Busby. If Real lost 7-0 to Barca, that coach is done. Pure and simple. Likewise Bayern against Dortmund or Milan vs Inter. But….he survived….ok. But then last season, the statistics for our performance with a record number of defeats, goals conceded, shots conceded, the exceptionally low goal return, shocking goal difference, record low PL finish, and just generally shocking performances, should always have been enough to move on from Ten Hag. Im not sure what rational was in place to give this man more time. I just don’t see it.

He doesn’t play good football, he’s a dreadful tactician, he doesn’t know how to set a team up, his team is boring and predictable, he’s terrible at rotating….the only good thing he’s done is the promotion of youth. People will point to the two trophies in two years, but when you measure where we are against the best sides - in the league and Europe - then he has us going backwards.

I really hope he succeeds, because I hate changing managers during the season but absolutely nothing about the guy gives me any confidence at all that he knows how to manage this team. He just isn’t good enough. We will lose a lot of games this season. Just like we did last season, because if we get even a couple of key injuries, the wheels will completely fall off. The system he’s put in place is so flimsy that it really doesn’t hold up to any pressure except under the absolute optimal circumstances, and that just isn’t good enough.

If he goes on to have a good season this season, I will happily eat my words. Happily. Nothing I would rather be right now than wrong. This is also the last I’m going to say on the subject, because I can’t do another whole season of saying the manager is terrible. It becomes toxic and I just have better things to do with my life. I already know that this is a season where my investment in the team, through time and energy, will be limited. United losing in limp circumstances really ruins my weekend, as it genuinely emotionally upsets me. United losing is something I can tolerate, and look to bounce back from, but United losing in predictable and limp fashion just drains me of any realistic hope of something better to come. It’ll just be another yo-yo season with a man in charge who is massively out of his depth.

The fact that every friend I have who supports a rival club was celebrating when we kept Ten Hag, tells you all you need to know about how the world views this man’s capabilities. It’s just known that we will be incoherent, naive, and have a soft underbelly. Ripe for a few thrashings, and all in all largely irrelevant in the picture of the big prizes.

People talk about signings way too much. While recruitment is very important, the ultimate pinnacle of performance, the tip of the spear, is coaching. It’s getting the most out of what you have and creating something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Ten Hag has never done that at United. He’s gotten less than the sum of its parts, and never shown any sort of thinking that makes us a genuinely difficult opponent for any team to face. Everyone who comes up against us fancies their chances, and with good reason. We are very poorly coached, with a baffling array of non-sensical instructions given to our players. Predictable going forwards, and open and lax in defence. Signing Ugarte or Pele isn’t going to make an appreciable difference, because the coaching is just fundamentally flawed. There are so many managers out there getting so much more out of so much less. I can only imagine what an Alonso or Emery would get out of this squad. A coherent football team for a start.
Excellent post mate and sums up my feelings. Two of my close pals also support rivals and are buzzing we kept him, and one in particular can’t wait to play us next Sunday.
 
I said when they bought in Ruud he was being assessed as the next manager as TH won’t last the season. Nothing he has done pre season as filled me with any hope we are improving fast enough. When you look at Artetas progress in how he got Arse to play and we are still all over the place during a game is as plain as night and day.

I love Ruud but hopefully it won't be anything more than an interim job in that case.
 
Would you take Emery? I’m sure he’d be up for another top club stint, probably has a record to set straight
In a heartbeat.
@simonhch gotta chime in too. That was a brilliant post. I agree with every single word.
Thank you.
Excellent post mate and sums up my feelings. Two of my close pals also support rivals and are buzzing we kept him, and one in particular can’t wait to play us next Sunday.
Thank you. While judging by the opinions of rival fans can be a fraught business, I think it’s telling that to a man, they are all glad we kept Ten Hag. No one, outside of a hardcore set of supporters within our fanbase, seems to rate the guy. And I think half of that is just misguided pride.
 
When I looked in I did it really see anything apart from posts dressed up in a nicer way than the ETH thread which are basically people patting themselves on the back. I don’t get it, it’s been said a thousand times in the ETH thread, this is meant to be a more objective one about this season. Since I posted the thread is much bigger now but it seems very similar now as well?

I guess my point is we actually played quite well in a game we usually get absolutely dominated on the ball and, when we win, which is rare away, it’s usually bloody lucky (last time in the PL apart from last season was the famous handball penalty 10mins into stoppage time). That’s not to say Brighton are the yardstick, far from it, but we’ve not played poorly this season. Yet.

Re rule. I don’t like it but I accept it’s inevitable (I think it’s stupid because there’s absolutely no debate that it was going in and that Zirkzee hasn’t affected play at all) because if they started looking at it subjectively it’d be more drama for VAR to mess up.

I'm honestly not sure, from what I see there is a lot of talk about the tactical issues (which do persist despite obviously not being as glaring as last season).

The problem is that whilst I understand the meaning behind this thread not becoming another breakdown of everything that went wrong last season that is a different thing than judging the fairly flat performances with the context of what happened last season included.

He scored the goal, that is clearly effecting play whether it was going in or not. It's a unique circumstance I understand but it's the right call and should be for a number of reasons. You can't change rules to be based on what would have happened if they weren't broken.
 
The bit about losing to Liverpool 7-0 being ‘unforgivable’ is arrogant hyperbole. Stinks of the ol’ ‘ta ra Fergie’. Or Andy Mitten demanding the end of Ferguson because ‘we’ve had three years of crap football and you sold all the talent’ after city beat us 5 1 in 89.

I’m not saying EtH is the next Ferguson. I don’t believed there is another. But such attention seeking nonsense as the above ought to be disregarded, outright.

Coaching and recruitment are important, yes, but neither is the ‘tip of the spear’, performance is and that is on the players. You can open the door, but the players must walk through it. United today played well, created chances but spaffed them. Yet again. Same as what happened under Ole’s fallow rope-a-dope, or Jose and LvG’s gruesome mechanics.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but it’s quite telling that your stirring defence of the manager doesn’t include any discernible argument supporting his suitability or capability for the role. There were a couple of generalised and unconvincing attempts to discredit small portions of my post, in an effort to discredit the entirety of it by painting in broad strokes, but no worthwhile argument whatsoever as to any explanation of a positive trajectory under his leadership. You tried to join some dots between what I said and a laughable movement from the late 80s to oust Ferguson, without there being any tangible link between the two. You’re going to have to do so much better than that. Something you apparently share with our manager.
 
The problem about those who defend Ten Hag here is that I never hear any statement of what he actually does well. What is he really good at coaching?

Do we create a lot of chances?
Are we set up really well in midfield?
Do we finish brilliantly well?
Do we defend exceptionally?
Have loads of players improved drastically?
Are players exceptionally fit?

All I seem to hear is insults to those who doubt him. I never hear an in depth explanation of why people think he's a top class coach. I really would like to because I am quite easily swayed in wanting to be hopeful.
 
He won't learn anything.

Our only hope is that he doesn't need to learn anything, i.e. that he actually knows what he's doing and that his master plan will bear fruit at some point (preferably while we're all still alive).
He will need to learn to setup away from home, his record away from home is abysmal.
 
Question.

Where are our three man rotations on the side of the oppositions box?

City do it.
Arsenal do it.

Always three men, and always one of them walking/running between the opposition CB and the FB.

Why is it always just two with us, and why is the fecking space between the opposition FB and CB almost always completely vacated?

How? Just fecking how? It's infuriating. We're not doing basic offensive things, so we don't create any of the cutbacks that they do.
 
We will never be able to win PL or CL under eth with this style. Nor get to 85 odd points. His style will yield 70 odd points max.

So the question is how long before the board and the new owners say enough is enough and let us look for alternatives
 
The 4-0 loss against Palace should have been the end of him. For most other managers at most other clubs it would have been. We're just too sentimental.

The FA Cup win wasn't some tactical masterstroke, it was a 50/50 slug match that could have gone either way.
 
On a positive note, until the substitutions, we controlled and moved the ball nicely under high pressure. Just holding is not going to win games but it is going to prevent goals we've conceded under pressure during the past seasons.

I don't think Brighton pressed as well as other teams will, so I look forward to seeing if this is a new constant. Press resistance would be an excellent foundation to build from.
 
On a positive note, until the substitutions, we controlled and moved the ball nicely under high pressure. Just holding is not going to win games but it is going to prevent goals we've conceded under pressure during the past seasons.

I don't think Brighton pressed as well as other teams will, so I look forward to seeing if this is a new constant. Press resistance would be an excellent foundation to build from.

We can seemingly either a) prevent chances or b) create chances... But never both.
 
Last season saw us play some of the most tactically naive football I have ever seen from a top team. There was no progression at all in terms of getting better and more coherent as the season wore on. We completely changed style for the last few games, which got us over the line in the FA cup and saved Ten Hag’s job. But an inch the wrong way in the semi’s, and Coventry would’ve knocked us out and we wouldn’t be here talking about Ten Hag today. A margin that fine for success, when the measurements of failure were overwhelming, really shouldn’t have been enough to keep him employed here.

Despite being massively impressed with Ineos so far, I heavily disagreed with the decision to keep Ten Hag, as I have never seen anything from him as United coach that suggests he is even remotely good enough to lead this club. The way we have started the season is depressingly predictable. With the squad of players he has, and the time he has had to work with them, and the support he’s received, he simply should be doing so much better.

Personally, I think losing 7-0 to Liverpool should be an unsurvivable event for any United manager, bar Ferguson or Busby. If Real lost 7-0 to Barca, that coach is done. Pure and simple. Likewise Bayern against Dortmund or Milan vs Inter. But….he survived….ok. But then last season, the statistics for our performance with a record number of defeats, goals conceded, shots conceded, the exceptionally low goal return, shocking goal difference, record low PL finish, and just generally shocking performances, should always have been enough to move on from Ten Hag. Im not sure what rational was in place to give this man more time. I just don’t see it.

He doesn’t play good football, he’s a dreadful tactician, he doesn’t know how to set a team up, his team is boring and predictable, he’s terrible at rotating….the only good thing he’s done is the promotion of youth. People will point to the two trophies in two years, but when you measure where we are against the best sides - in the league and Europe - then he has us going backwards.

I really hope he succeeds, because I hate changing managers during the season but absolutely nothing about the guy gives me any confidence at all that he knows how to manage this team. He just isn’t good enough. We will lose a lot of games this season. Just like we did last season, because if we get even a couple of key injuries, the wheels will completely fall off. The system he’s put in place is so flimsy that it really doesn’t hold up to any pressure except under the absolute optimal circumstances, and that just isn’t good enough.

If he goes on to have a good season this season, I will happily eat my words. Happily. Nothing I would rather be right now than wrong. This is also the last I’m going to say on the subject, because I can’t do another whole season of saying the manager is terrible. It becomes toxic and I just have better things to do with my life. I already know that this is a season where my investment in the team, through time and energy, will be limited. United losing in limp circumstances really ruins my weekend, as it genuinely emotionally upsets me. United losing is something I can tolerate, and look to bounce back from, but United losing in predictable and limp fashion just drains me of any realistic hope of something better to come. It’ll just be another yo-yo season with a man in charge who is massively out of his depth.

The fact that every friend I have who supports a rival club was celebrating when we kept Ten Hag, tells you all you need to know about how the world views this man’s capabilities. It’s just known that we will be incoherent, naive, and have a soft underbelly. Ripe for a few thrashings, and all in all largely irrelevant in the picture of the big prizes.

People talk about signings way too much. While recruitment is very important, the ultimate pinnacle of performance, the tip of the spear, is coaching. It’s getting the most out of what you have and creating something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Ten Hag has never done that at United. He’s gotten less than the sum of its parts, and never shown any sort of thinking that makes us a genuinely difficult opponent for any team to face. Everyone who comes up against us fancies their chances, and with good reason. We are very poorly coached, with a baffling array of non-sensical instructions given to our players. Predictable going forwards, and open and lax in defence. Signing Ugarte or Pele isn’t going to make an appreciable difference, because the coaching is just fundamentally flawed. There are so many managers out there getting so much more out of so much less. I can only imagine what an Alonso or Emery would get out of this squad. A coherent football team for a start.
Excellent post. The bolded part is exactly how i feel, I have been in a bad mood all day. It was exactly the same feeling after the first game of last season - the manager seems to have learnt nothing, and the sooner he is gone, the better.
 
We can seemingly either a) prevent chances or b) create chances... But never both.
That's true. I'm not sure if EtH wouldn't be more suited to coach a specific area of our game under a manager more capable of controlling the bigger picture.
 
I didn't want ETH sacked. And no it isn't/wasn't because I think he will lead us to the promised land. I just thought it would be a waste of time as to me it was becoming. Lear, post SAF, that it wasn't a managerial issue solely that we were in freefall/dire.

We heard from LVG, to Jose, to Ralf and even Ronaldo that things weren't good at the club and the players.

Another manager without wholesale changes at the club would have resolved nothing for me.

I was happy with ETH staying as I saw things beginning to change at board level etc. But I also knew this would take a couple or three years. So ETH stays, major changes happen, people put in place then we look at managers.

I also said and feel that with the changes being made at team level, affected by when we sign etc the new players would need time to gel with team mates. I think we saw that in our second goal today with De light going ballistic no one was at the back post. Think as he settles he will be the mouthpiece in defence. We have not really had one. And the one we have is new. Just look at AWB performance today for WH. He was the new guy but communication was there and he had a really good game imo. The fans were singing his name. Ours wanted rid

I think the beginning of the season will be hard. If we sign Ugarte it will take a bit longer. But let these new guys bed in. We will see then. ETH can only do so much. Ultimately the players need to be responsive on the pitch and need leadership and I see that in De Light and even Zirkzee.
 
Outdone by a 31 year old manager whose system is not even fully implemented and he's likely to be outdone by a compatriot Dutch baldy in his first PL season next weekend. I have low expectations with Ten Hag at the helm. Nothing has changed
 
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Incapable of success after 2 trophies in 2 consecutive years for the first time in 10 years. Alright mate. Give it time ffs.

Whatever “it” is has had plenty of time. Two cup wins while being utterly uncompetitive in league and Europe is not success for United. Mate.
 
Let's just accept that we suck and have zero expectations of this team and manager. Occasional cup win to make us feel good while we continue to be beaten by mid table teams. That's out standard now along with an average manager that manages an average squad. Looks like City, Arsenal and Liverpool to fight it out while out manager is still figuring out in season 3.
 
How many rounds into the season until we can get a poll going.

(He shoulda been fired in December last year.)
 
Anyone else feeling really rubbish after today, it’s been two games but I already feel so low about this season. Just can’t see him lasting the whole season and that’s another season gone & another rebuild

Yeah. It feels like a bad relationship that I keep telling myself it can be fixed with some effort and compromise from my part, but it's dawning on me that I'm probably in denial. Watching United is really becoming a chore even when we win. It's depressing.
 
Feels like he is already walking the plank. Won't last long if he doesn't learn quickly?
If he doesn't learn in 3 years, what makes you think he will learn now? The man is so naive tactically, has no personality to carry the club and is absolutely livid and over the moon to get the job that he know he don't deserve. Gone by christmas.
 
Football is football, his job is to try to win every game. Win with both beautiful and ugly football. 3 freaking years and we continue to play like shit, every game is a struggle. Very soon, players will hang their heads with every defeat with team morale at all time low. There is no easy with ETH, it is a mentally issue when he purpose tells the team to play safe with side and backwards passing. How many times did we score in the 1st half last season? I see the same pattern in the first 2 games. Nothing changes with ETH, he is stubborn guy and he continues his path. I hope he gets sack and Ruud takes over where he focus in attacking from 1st min.
 
We are on pace for 0 goal differential, which would be an improvement over last season. Sixty two more years of improvement at that rate and we'll be on par with City and Arsenal from last season.
 
Out of his depth both tactically and man management. Very limited manager that requires a specific subset of players to play his football.

I think Ineos submitted to fan pressure. Hopefully they have a plan.

I definitely wasn't in those fans pressuring them to keep him, had enough in March 2023 at Anfield and nothing has changed my mind
 
Question.

Where are our three man rotations on the side of the oppositions box?

City do it.
Arsenal do it.

Always three men, and always one of them walking/running between the opposition CB and the FB.

Why is it always just two with us, and why is the fecking space between the opposition FB and CB almost always completely vacated?

How? Just fecking how? It's infuriating. We're not doing basic offensive things, so we don't create any of the cutbacks that they do.

Yeah. the lack of movement and sophistication in our attack is quite weird.
We seem to try and Isolate Rashford/Amad (or whichever winger who comes in their place) against a defender
[Essentially it's 2 v 2 as you said, our defender+winger against the oppo's].

The aim seems to be that our winger manages to go past a defender by dribbling and cross the ball (towards a striker that we either don't have or is covered by 2 CB's), or create an angle for a shot having cut inside.

It's all very bland, very easy to defend against.
If you're going to repeatedly do something that is rather predictable, it has to be Robben-quality.

There used to be times in Fergie's latter years where we were suspectible for this too.
No overwhelming the oppo's defense with numbers and constant movement, but rather a 1v1 situation,
where the onus is on the winger to create something meaningfull from zero, be it a shot from just outside the box or a cross that finds the forward between a rather stacked defense.

But we had Ronaldo and Giggs on the wingers. Even Valencia could be relied upon for 1-2 seasons to do that. We had Rooney and later RVP inside the box.

We don't have the quality to have the luxury to play predictable football, in all honesty.

But this post as an air of "our players are shit" which I didn't mean to its full extent.

If our manager needs hundreds of millions of pounds each summer to improve the squad, then he's no use.
especially when it's players that he himself signed.

We need 2 qualiry CMs at the very least to add to everything else we did this summer, which is problematic and is on the manager that we got to such a place.

We seem to constantly be on the need for another manager and some better players in certain areas.
This is infuriating.

At the current state, I don't see what ETH brings to the table that other 'just decent' managers won't.
The only things going for him is that he made his Ajax team brilliant for a period.
 
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