Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked

Erik ten Hag

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tomaldinho1 said:
Sorry do you think underlying metrics matter or not, I don’t follow? The article is pretty detailed, not sure how you could look at it and think we’ve duped the stats.

I agree re possession by the way, but I’m not arguing possession = good.
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:lol:

It says "Here, Ten Hag's side would sit just three points adrift from table-topping local rivals Manchester City."

Just because someone somewhere took a sample size of 5 games and convinced you that our performances have been within 3 points of Man City's doesn't mean the article is "pretty detailed".
 
tomaldinho1 said:
So, no?

Re favourites, I would hope we get QF minimum and would like to think it’s something we have a good shot at winning.
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We should be reaching the quarters of the CL, nevermind the Europa league.

The fact you set the bar so low shows you have little faith in Ten Hag. But you can't definitively say that we should be winning the EL with ease considering how strong the squad is, because you know we won't, and that'd mean you wouldn't be able to defend your man.

Lowering expectations to unreasonable levels, ignoring results, cherry picking stats, and making excuses is all anyone resorts to when trying to argue his case.

Last season it was injuries, and now that excuse is gone it's xG and other bullshit
 
erikcred said:
:lol:

It says "Here, Ten Hag's side would sit just three points adrift from table-topping local rivals Manchester City."

Just because someone somewhere took a sample size of 5 games and convinced you that our performances have been within 3 points of Man City's doesn't mean the article is "pretty detailed".
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Im talking about the whole article and how on earth would they get more data from the current season? I’ll wait a while for an answer here I suppose.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
We should be reaching the quarters of the CL, nevermind the Europa league.

The fact you set the bar so low shows you have little faith in Ten Hag. But you can't definitively say that we should be winning the EL with ease considering how strong the squad is, because you know we won't, and that'd mean you wouldn't be able to defend your man.

Lowering expectations to unreasonable levels, ignoring results, cherry picking stats, and making excuses is all anyone resorts to when trying to argue his case.

Last season it was injuries, and now that excuse is gone it's xG and other bullshit
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Temper those expectations- we haven’t made a QF in the CL since 18/19 and that was when we smash and grabbed PSG and then got thumped by Barca. The time before that was 10 years ago.

We are not a club used to being in the latter stages of the CL. Is my bar low - I expect 4/5th place and good performances in FA cup + EL?

Again, why are people talking about excuses. I’m pointing out the fact that we have played better, it’s a shame the results haven’t come but that will ultimately be what decides ETH’s fate. My point is that if you keep outplaying the opposition in important metrics, it stands to reason you will win more games over the course of the season. So far I’d say we have lost 1 we deserved, 1 that could have gone either way and then the draw with Palace was very frustrating but we played well enough to win comfortably.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Im talking about the whole article and how on earth would they get more data from the current season? I’ll wait a while for an answer here I suppose.
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Well, yeah you should. Till more than half of the season is done, if you want to compare season trajectories.

Like the article writer should have.

But they've got bills to pay and a job to do, so a half-baked article would have to do for now.
 
erikcred said:
Well, yeah you should. Till more than half of the season is done, if you want to compare season trajectories.

Like the article writer should have.

But they've got bills to pay and a job to do, so a half-baked article would have to do for now.
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Not sure why it's so hard for him to understand. Any data set of 5 games should be disregarded or heavily scrutinized at a bare minimum. Trying to extrapolate would have everyone thinking every half decent forward going through purple patch is world class (hello 22/23 Rashford)
 
Mike Smalling said:
We were never expected to challenge for the league, we are only 4 points off the top four, and we have played a single game in a new EL format where the majority of teams go through. Results wise nothing is lost yet. It's just that the play gives no confidence that results will improve. But when have we ever sacked a manager based on how the play looks? Unfortunately, I think we need to watch a lot of shite, before that decision is taken.
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Sure, but we've all seen this movie and know how it ends. Our form both in the league and in Europe going back to last year is woeful and there is no sign of that changing. We have the sample size to draw conclusions. This year, Liverpool is the only real side we've had to face, and they battered us once again. ETH won't last past Christmas, so for me, I'd rather just end it now while, as you point out, there is a possibility to salvage something. I don't think that opportunity will exist if the club waits until the holidays to take action.
 
erikcred said:
Well, yeah you should. Till more than half of the season is done, if you want to compare season trajectories.

Like the article writer should have.

But they've got bills to pay and a job to do, so a half-baked article would have to do for now.
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Which is exactly why the overreaction on here is comical. It’s 5 games in.

But re data, you use what you can. I take it from your last paragraph you don’t like the fact it shows we’ve improved, that’s fine, we will wait and see how it develops.
 
PieCrust said:
Sure, but we've all seen this movie and know how it ends. Our form both in the league and in Europe going back to last year is woeful and there is no sign of that changing. We have the sample size to draw conclusions. This year, Liverpool is the only real side we've had to face, and they battered us once again. ETH won't last past Christmas, so for me, I'd rather just end it now while, as you point out, there is a possibility to salvage something. I don't think that opportunity will exist if the club waits until the holidays to take action.
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I agree with you. I'm just commenting on what I think will happen, not what would happen if it was my decision.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Which is exactly why the overreaction on here is comical. It’s 5 games in.

But re data, you use what you can. I take it from your last paragraph you don’t like the fact it shows we’ve improved, that’s fine, we will wait and see how it develops.
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That's not how anything works. Were you equally giddy that we were on track for a 114 pt season after GW1?
 
erikcred said:
"But re data, you use what you can. "
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Great quote, not like we were discussing an article or anything like that. Guess we were just hashing it out about data and it’s uses.

It was weak before, now it’s tragic.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Temper those expectations- we haven’t made a QF in the CL since 18/19 and that was when we smash and grabbed PSG and then got thumped by Barca. The time before that was 10 years ago.

We are not a club used to being in the latter stages of the CL. Is my bar low - I expect 4/5th place and good performances in FA cup + EL?

Again, why are people talking about excuses. I’m pointing out the fact that we have played better, it’s a shame the results haven’t come but that will ultimately be what decides ETH’s fate. My point is that if you keep outplaying the opposition in important metrics, it stands to reason you will win more games over the course of the season. So far I’d say we have lost 1 we deserved, 1 that could have gone either way and then the draw with Palace was very frustrating but we played well enough to win comfortably.
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We've only outplayed a team that's 7th in league 1,
45 minutes against a team bottom of the Premier League,
and a team that's 7th in the Dutch league. Let's not get carried away now.
 
big_jeffstar said:
The amount of chances we just don’t put away is scandalous really, I feel a bit sorry for him, sometimes it’s harder to miss but we find a way, I’m sure he’s not coaching that..
Rashfords form was helping Ole look much better than he was, if we had him firing again the pressure would be nowhere near as intense, and Bruno has now randomly decided that he can’t pass, create or shoot.. it’s a tough time for the team really, we’re desperate for someone in front of goal to find form
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Wasn’t Ruud brought in to coach the attackers? And some on here see him as the next interim boss if EtH is fired. We should have bought a natural goal scorer. We’ve basically got Rashford and kids up front, together with a mis-firing Bruno.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
We've only outplayed a team that's 7th in league 1,
45 minutes against a team bottom of the Premier League,
and a team that's 7th in the Dutch league. Let's not get carried away now.
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That’s not true though. We’ve outplayed by basically every metric all but Brighton and Pool. It’s a small sample size but Pool are a better team than us and Brighton away was pretty tight. Even the dross last night we were comfortably better over the 90mins.
 
George The Best said:
Wasn’t Ruud brought in to coach the attackers? And some on here see him as the next interim boss if EtH is fired. We should have bought a natural goal scorer. We’ve basically got Rashford and kids up front, together with a mis-firing Bruno.
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Rasmus is the same age as Bellingham, I don't see anyone excusing him for anything because he is a just a "kid"
 
tomaldinho1 said:
That’s not true though. We’ve outplayed by basically every metric all but Brighton and Pool. It’s a small sample size but Pool are a better team than us and Brighton away was pretty tight. Even the dross last night we were comfortably better over the 90mins.
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Better but still shit which is the problem
 
tomaldinho1 said:
That’s not true though. We’ve outplayed by basically every metric all but Brighton and Pool. It’s a small sample size but Pool are a better team than us and Brighton away was pretty tight. Even the dross last night we were comfortably better over the 90mins.
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That's what I'm saying. We have outplayed rubbish teams. Southampton, Barnsley, Twente and Palace for 45 minutes. Let's see how good we are against a team with a remotely decent midfield, and then talk about metrics.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
That's what I'm saying. We have outplayed rubbish teams. Southampton, Barnsley, Twente and Palace for 45 minutes. Let's see how good we are against a team with a remotely decent midfield, and then talk about metrics.
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I remember the old LVG days when we passed , passed , passed .. were good in every metric and get 1-0 loss or 1-1 draw against Swansea ..
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Which is exactly why the overreaction on here is comical. It’s 5 games in.

But re data, you use what you can. I take it from your last paragraph you don’t like the fact it shows we’ve improved, that’s fine, we will wait and see how it develops.
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The overreaction is not because of the 5 games but, 5 shite games coming after our worse season ever!
 
I'm at that stage I was with Ole, I no longer can be bothered to take aim at ETH. This is all on INEOS now. I don't care what sort of mental gymnastics anyone wants to play, he could and probably should have been sacked 5x over in the last 12 months. Those that are defending him would be having a field day if this was an opposition manager. Anywhere else and he'd be a distant memory now. Hell even Woodward probably would have pulled the trigger long ago.

But those defending him are living by double standards. They'll criticise and laugh at other managers like Brendan Rodgers when he was probably about the same level. Hell, in reality he was incredibly unlucky not to win the scousers their first PL title. Yet he's a joke, whilst the jury is still out on Ten Hag somehow. Arteta is another, they criticised him, yet now they hold him up as the poster boy for what they're hoping Ten Hag can be. Laughable.

Like I said, the jury is in. We know what we've got. Either INEOS do something about it or they don't, whatever. But this is a defining time for them and soon I think everyone will be casting their gaze on them and not the manager. Ten Hag is what he is. Probably not even a top 10 manager in the PL. It's like blaming Lukaku for being shit, but really the issue was the manager choosing to play him. The longer they keep him on, the more they look like they're just out of ideas at the first decisive moment. It's all well and good talking about a new stadium or sacking some fecking office staff, whilst you avoid the biggest decision like the plague.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Not sure why it's so hard for him to understand. Any data set of 5 games should be disregarded or heavily scrutinized at a bare minimum. Trying to extrapolate would have everyone thinking every half decent forward going through purple patch is world class (hello 22/23 Rashford)
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It’s not even like we’ve been amazing in these 5 games or anything. We were OK against Fulham and Southampton, decent in patches against Brighton and Palace but ultimately came out with underwhelming scorelines anyway, embarrassing against Liverpool. We may brag about having high xG but games like v Liverpool add up to that as we contributed almost 1.5 xG there but all of it came after the game was over and they didn’t care much. Remove that from the equation (which would have been the case had we not allowed them to score 3 before second half barely began - at that point our xG was literally nothing) and we would be down the list already.
 
sparx99 said:
It’s interesting that last year seemed to be a tactical failure while this season seems to be individuals letting the team down. Both attacking and defensive stats are improved but ultimately we are relying on inconsistent players.

Now for what it’s worth if this was ETH’a first season I think you look at performances and the underlying stats and you say we’ve been a bit unlucky. Compare that to last year where even when we won we seemed to be the team getting away with things.

The problem is though that even if the model says we are underachieving our xG or whatever that’s likely to be ongoing. Our forwards are likely to consistently under-perform xG because there isn’t a reliable goalscorer amongst them. Any one of them could have a purple patch but you wouldn’t bet on it.

All we can do is hope that we keep creating lots of chances because we need to for this group to score goals. We also need to hope that we can add some more set piece goals because we need as many from all sources as we can get.
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This is his 3rd season now. Besides all the nice looking stats, where I'll agree have improved, his biggest problem is that he fails to find goals in the team.

3 seasons now and we still have trouble finding the back of the net. We got away with it in his first season, last season we didn't, and it seems we are just continuing the trend this season.

So his attacking setup doesn't work. I'm still not sure how he's even trying to find goals. If he can't get goals, he'll never win games which keeps the door open for opposition to come at us because we have no secir
 
baskinginthesun said:
This is his 3rd season now. Besides all the nice looking stats, where I'll agree have improved, his biggest problem is that he fails to find goals in the team.

3 seasons now and we still have trouble finding the back of the net. We got away with it in his first season, last season we didn't, and it seems we are just continuing the trend this season.

So his attacking setup doesn't work. I'm still not sure how he's even trying to find goals. If he can't get goals, he'll never win games which keeps the door open for opposition to come at us because we have no security.
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Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.

At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Hand-waving away last season as the result of freak injuries whilst simultaneously praising ETH for improvement in performances since last season is having your cake and eating it too.
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By the same token saying we deserved to finish 14th last year but also don’t deserve to be higher this season is doing the same thing.

I’m not happy but we’ve definitely been easier on the eye this year. We don’t have the same gaping hole in midfield (for the most part).

We actually look like a team that is developing. If we weren’t year 3 then I’d be reasonably content at the green shoots we are seeing.

The problem is that Ten Hag used a lot of his rope last season so patience is running thin. He may well end up being undone by relying on Bruno & Rashford and the potential of Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund and now Amad.
 
Teja said:
Ultimately you either accept injuries as an excuse for last season or you don't. First season was just fine in terms of performance / results. I think having negative GD in the league despite the injuries is cause for sacking but the consensus both here and by the management team was to not look too closely into last season because of the injury crisis.
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It... really wasn't.

Our form dipped just before the League Cup final and has been in the gutter ever since.

We literally scraped to 4th place and almost threw it away in the end.

Don't forget we also got tanked 7-0 at Anfield.

But sure, I guess that's "fine".
 
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tomaldinho1 said:
If you believe we won’t get out the group, let’s bet?
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Why are you deflecting from the point I made?

Is drawing with Twente a one off result or is it part of a pattern of failure under Ten Hag with only 1 win in 9 in Europe?
sparx99 said:
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.

At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
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A relative improvement from last year is not an impressive feat in itself, and should not be the barometer of whether Ten Hag is succeeding or not.

Despite some improvements in our attacking play, we’re still left with long stretches where we look pretty clueless in how to break a team down, especially in the second halves after the opponents have typically made adjustments. It’s not like we’re cutting teams to shreds - we’re just creating some chances that you’d expect a set of players like ours to create no matter who was in charge.

And noone’s blaming Ten Hag for “hitching his success to these players”. That’s just a nonsense term you’ve made up to deflect responsibility from him. Most people are blaming Ten Hag for a very extended period of poor performances and poor results, along with consistently baffling decisions. He consistently gets less from the team than is reasonable to expect given its personnel, and a lot of that does come down to his tactical failings. Until his tactics show an ability to consistently achieve both performances and results then they will rightly be under scrutiny - he’s yet to prove they work in the PL or in Europe.
 
Zumbi said:
Why are you deflecting from the point I made?

Is drawing with Twente a one off result or is it part of a pattern of failure under Ten Hag with only 1 win in 9 in Europe?


A relative improvement from last year is not an impressive feat in itself, and should not be the barometer of whether Ten Hag is succeeding or not.

Despite some improvements in our attacking play, we’re still left with long stretches where we look pretty clueless in how to break a team down, especially in the second halves after the opponents have typically made adjustments. It’s not like we’re cutting teams to shreds - we’re just creating some chances that you’d expect a set of players like ours to create no matter who was in charge.

And noone’s blaming Ten Hag for “hitching his success to these players”. That’s just a nonsense term you’ve made up to deflect responsibility from him. Most people are blaming Ten Hag for a very extended period of poor performances and poor results, along with consistently baffling decisions. He consistently gets less from the team than is reasonable to expect given its personnel, and a lot of that does come down to his tactical failings. Until his tactics show an ability to consistently achieve both performances and results then they will rightly be under scrutiny - he’s yet to prove they work in the PL or in Europe.
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I’m not deflecting from Ten Hag’s failures. However, it was a lack of creativity that was the issue last season. We literally weren’t even having shots. Compared to this season where we are right up at the top in terms of chance creation and it’s night and day. It’s a fact that we have missed loads of chances.

The other thing is that if you take an early chance you get even more later in games. If you have a lead you tend to get opportunities as the other team chases the game. Look at the missed chances late against Fulham for example.

When I talk about Ten Hag ‘hitching his success to these players’ I’m the one blaming him. I think he made a horrible mistake building around Rashford and Bruno. Two extremely unreliable players. I think he has then compounded that mistake by betting on youth around them. Choosing the promise of Hojlund over a more senior striker.

Many on here have demanded the end to signings like Varane, Casemiro, Falcao or Cavani. Well the flip side is that potential is only that until it develops. I’m glad that we are building on youth but I’m not sure our fan base has the patience for it whether it’s Ten Hag or whoever replaces him.
 
Signing of potential is good-and-all, but I’m not so sure you can go that route with your main striker for a multitude of reasons.

Signing an older and more experienced centre forward (think Cavani at the time), would do wonders while Zirkzee and Hojlund learn the craft required to succeed against the best centre backs in the world.
 
sparx99 said:
I’m not deflecting from Ten Hag’s failures. However, it was a lack of creativity that was the issue last season. We literally weren’t even having shots. Compared to this season where we are right up at the top in terms of chance creation and it’s night and day. It’s a fact that we have missed loads of chances.

The other thing is that if you take an early chance you get even more later in games. If you have a lead you tend to get opportunities as the other team chases the game. Look at the missed chances late against Fulham for example.

When I talk about Ten Hag ‘hitching his success to these players’ I’m the one blaming him. I think he made a horrible mistake building around Rashford and Bruno. Two extremely unreliable players. I think he has then compounded that mistake by betting on youth around them. Choosing the promise of Hojlund over a more senior striker.

Many on here have demanded the end to signings like Varane, Casemiro, Falcao or Cavani. Well the flip side is that potential is only that until it develops. I’m glad that we are building on youth but I’m not sure our fan base has the patience for it whether it’s Ten Hag or whoever replaces him.
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No, that was just one of the issues that we had last season. Another was failing to finish chances (still a problem). Another was conceding soft chances and goals at key moments, especially later in games, costing us valuable points in winnable games (still a problem). Another was opposition managers making tactical changes during matches that took the initiative back, with Ten Hag failing to respond adequately (still a problem).

So yes, we’ve slightly improved in one area with zero improvement in results to show for it. But it’s still only an improvement when compared with one of the very worst periods under Ten Hag’s tenure, which itself is one of the very worst periods we’ve seen post-Fergie. And that’s my point: the yardstick we should be using for “improvement” is not a historically poor period under the current failing manager. It’s a sign of how far our standards have dropped when that’s what’s being used as a comparative point in order to spin “positives”.
 
Zumbi said:
No, that was just one of the issues that we had last season. Another was failing to finish chances (still a problem). Another was conceding soft chances and goals at key moments, especially later in games, costing us valuable points in winnable games (still a problem). Another was opposition managers making tactical changes during matches that took the initiative back, with Ten Hag failing to respond adequately (still a problem).

So yes, we’ve slightly improved in one area with zero improvement in results to show for it. But it’s still only an improvement when compared with one of the very worst periods under Ten Hag’s tenure, which itself is one of the very worst periods we’ve seen post-Fergie. And that’s my point: the yardstick we should be using for “improvement” is not a historically poor period under the current failing manager. It’s a sign of how far our standards have dropped when that’s what’s being used as a comparative point in order to spin “positives”.
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Yes, I was specifically discussing our attacking form though. You can’t make the players better finishers. You can create more chances and that’s what we’re doing.

Last season is last season. The disaster was a combination of Ten Hags tactics and the injuries coupled with poor form of key players.

The only yardstick that matters is how we are compared to the teams we are competing against this season. Outside of the Liverpool game we deservedly beat Fulham & Southampton and should have beaten Palace. We wouldn’t be the first team to not be able to win a game we deserved to win. The Brighton game was more even but most would say we deserved a point if not more especially with the freak offside goal.

It feels like to me that people are being extremely reactionary to any and everything this season because they have already made their minds up. Results need to improve but the unlike last season our underlying performance suggests that should happen.
 
Just to put another perspective on this. As a Manchester United fan, I was absolutely delighted when I heard Klopp was leaving Liverpool as I will be when Pep decides to leave City. It weakens our biggest rivals. Conversely, anyone who supports Liverpool or City, who I’ve spoken to, were over the moon when we decided to keep EtH in the summer. The results so far this season have backed up their delight!
 
sparx99 said:
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.

At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
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sparx99 said:
Yes, I was specifically discussing our attacking form though. You can’t make the players better finishers. You can create more chances and that’s what we’re doing.

Last season is last season. The disaster was a combination of Ten Hags tactics and the injuries coupled with poor form of key players.

The only yardstick that matters is how we are compared to the teams we are competing against this season. Outside of the Liverpool game we deservedly beat Fulham & Southampton and should have beaten Palace. We wouldn’t be the first team to not be able to win a game we deserved to win. The Brighton game was more even but most would say we deserved a point if not more especially with the freak offside goal.

It feels like to me that people are being extremely reactionary to any and everything this season because they have already made their minds up. Results need to improve but the unlike last season our underlying performance suggests that should happen.
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I just dispute that the tactical failings in attack have been adequately eradicated. I still think we have lots of tactical issues in attack. Despite creating more chances this season, we still often look slow, imbalanced and lacking in ideas when trying to break teams down. Especially later in matches once our opponents to have made adjustments. Ten Hag hasn’t yet demonstrated an ability to himself respond with changes which can force a break through, despite now having much better options off the bench.

So no, I just don’t accept our consistent lack of goals is simply and only down to poor finishing. All teams miss chances. Palace also missed chances.I think Ten Hag’s coaching, set up and tactics are still a limiting factor in our attack. I still have no doubt that other managers could get a better attacking tune out of this set of players.

I still don’t feel as if sufficient goals are an inevitability with this team set up in this way, especially when we have much tougher opponents coming up. And I still don’t feel it’s an inevitability that our results will improve just because we m’re creating more chances and had a good half against a poor Palace team and a good result against a poor Southampton team. We’ve seen so many false dawns and many of our previous failings which have regularly cost us results are still there.

Is that a reactionary take? Or are there some legitimate justifications for being underwhelmed by a slight increase in chances created during a fairly gentle start to the season?
 
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