I do think its a bit rich to talk about fallacy when you claimed easy chances werent created, then you claimed we weren't set up correctly, and then backtracked on a different point again just yesterday.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
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The first season was good, not great. We were average at best for the majority of the second half of the season.
Second season we looked absolutely diabolical for the entire season, including during the times we didn't have many injuries. Obviously the injuries made things even worse and any manager would have struggled to some extent, but there's no excuse for ETH's performance. There were multiple times where the opposition manager had just as many, if not more, injuries and it didn't stop them embarrassing us.
This season there has been an improvement. It's enough that I still haven't voted in this poll and I'm willing to give him a bit more time to see if we continue to improve. But I'm fairly certain it's still not going to be good enough.
I don’t think it matters. As long as we are top half and pick up good results here and there, as we have been since the start of season, he has nothing to worry about. We have clearly improved this year and will probably be closer to 4th than we will be to 8th.Where do we think he needs to be in the table come the end of November for Ten Hag to not be in danger of getting the sack?
Its nothing to do with money and squads
We have a better squad than Crystal Palace by a country mile..
We have been watching inept coaching for so long we’ve actually forgotten how even a semi decent coaching can transform a team.
If we hand it over to Ruud I’m confident he’ll deliver much better results than ETH, its actually mad he’s still the coach.
Been watching football for decades have never seen any club be so forgiving to a manager.
I think we have pretty much accepted that already. We prioritize manager over results, and would rather sacrifice a few points or finish slightly lower but ensure we are not perceived as a sacking club, and add to the reputation of a club that ‘stands by its manager’.
mate the performances has been shite what are you on about
If a 0-0 against Crystal Palace is good performance and nothing to complain about, you’re the kind of fans I’m talking about who’ve accepted mediocrity.
0-0 against Palace, nothing to complain about. 5 goals in 5 games sitting 11th are good performances apparently.
Btw they had an xg of 1.01 and we had 1.70.
Lets not act we bossed them and were incredibly unlucky they had big chances as well it was hardly Celtics vs Barca
If you can’t separate performances from results, don’t bother responding. If you can feel free to ask if you don’t understand something.
An XG of 1.01 to 1.70
They had 4 shots on target we had 6
They had 3 big chances we had 5
Yes we performed slightly better, thats about it really.
But your standards are so damn low that for you that’s enough.
If that isn’t accepting mediocrity I don’t know what is.
I have been a vocal EtH-outer since we lost to Palace last season at home, so I went quite early.
However, what I will say is that I wouldn't have a single complaint this season if that was our "par" performance away from home. I have consistently said that I don't care about the results right now but that I haven't seen enough progress / evolution in our football under ten Hag.
Yesterday was one of the rare occasions when there were signs that he does have a viable vision for this team. Have to caveat that of course by saying its one game, we didn't win and we relied on a world-class save from Onana and a bad miss by Eze to cling on...but the first half especially was very encouraging.
His in-game management was still very questionable. Taking off Zirkzee for Rashford was exactly what we didn't need. We had control and Zirkzee was playing well, holding the ball and bringing others into play. Rashford is a wildcard and often struggles to get into the game in the #9 position.
I can understand bringing him on, given his recent goals, but it had to be for Amad or Garnacho. EtH ended up taking off one of our best players on the day and then moving Rashford out wide 10-15 minutes later anyway.
Spot on.
Its dogma at this point
People need to critically think why traditions came about in the first place. It was a different time, a time where these “traditions” helped us succeed.
Aren't we at home against Chelsea. Chelsea away is later in the season. And we'll whoop their arses both home and away.
If we can see that from our TV screens or phones, why is it hard for ETH ? Rashford as a 9 ? Really ?
The only logical explanation to subbing Zirkzee was an injury, as far as I'm concerned.
We will never have sustained long term success under this guy. Matches against mid table teams away are a 50/50 for us now.
Worst decision in a decade to not get rid of him in the summer.
Worst decision in a decade to not get rid of him in the summer.
Reliance on XG alone when evaluating performance is such a bollocks way to go about criticising a team. It's so obvious that yesterday's performance was very encouraging and we were good value for a lead if we just had our shooting boots on.
We actually had a good XG vs Liverpool but we're completely outclassed on the eye test. Going by only XG just to make a point is soft.
It probably does to Ratcliffe and Ineos though. If we get to half way or close to it. I imagine they'll be expecting we'd have picked up enough point to enable CL qualification. I don't think given the level of invesment they've made in the club that they'll accept another season of EL/EC football.
Xg is what the modern fan uses to justify their shitty arguments. It’s like, using your own eyes to judge a performance is a crime and should be outlawed.
Where do we think he needs to be in the table come the end of November for Ten Hag to not be in danger of getting the sack?
I think its less of where he needs to specifically be in November and more about what our performances are like. As long as we are in the top half and close to top 4 i.e. we aren't starting to say its going to be a challenge to get top 4, then he should be fine come November as there is also the Europa league in the back pocket and he has a good track record in cup competitions.
It's an interesting one for INEOS though, you have invested in players for his style (good signings it looks like so far), the performances whilst not spectacular are good yet the results aren't quite matching the performances. If this was Ten Hag's 1st year you might say there are promising signs. It being his 3rd year complicates it as I think fans are in the right to say you should be seeing more in his 3rd year. So from an INEOS perspective I imagine you have to make decisions on this season rather than the previous 2 (which will enrage the Ten Hag haters). They will likely have set a benchmark that he will have to meet, which I imagine is top 4 or a close 5th, a cup and generally good performances through the season. If he hits those marks then there's a chance they keep him on for next season. But it is right on a knive edge at the moment. If we beat Twente and then Spurs for example this will be a nice mini run, if we lose v spurs and Villa, especially in a pathetic way, then I can see him getting sacked.
Wow. I doubt even a Palace fan would say that.
You can still be ETH out and be realistic about our performances
So if I swing both ways I basically like crack? Ok.
We're both frustrated by our poor finishing, no doubt about that, but it seems a bit reductive to write off an excellent half due to poor finishing.
Still, perhaps we can agree that it's a promising sign that we put in such a dominant performance, poor finishing aside, away to a team that battered us last season?
Woah that took a turn
Excellent post.
Wether you want ETH to be sacked or given time, you have to like this team and it's potential
As the saying goes, It's not about the wins. It's about the style of football. We've given ETH enough time for him to imprint his style on the team. We've given him enough transfers too. He's had a lot of signings go his way. I can even look beyond the Antony signing but the fact that there's no discernable style of play over three seasons confirms that he's not cut out for the United job.
Managers like Emery have turned around teams in a much quicker time. Even the Brighton manager is running circles around our fraud. And we fecking got schooled against the scousers.
Managers like Emery have turned around teams in a much quicker time. Even the Brighton manager is running circles around our fraud. And we fecking got schooled against the scousers.
The most likely outcome of this season is that he will be sacked once our season is ruined
I didn’t rely on XG alone did I?
There wasn’t a huge gulf in number of shots were there?
Yes we could have scored 2, but so could have they. Yes we performed better but people saying “fans cant have much to complain about the performances have been that good” is straight bollocks and the mother of hyperbole.
You
You also do not get to use the word hyperbole when your prior post fecking stinks of it.
You’d have to be a complete and utter moron to not see that for the majority of the game we absolutely dominated. Who cares what the stats say?
You also do not get to use the word hyperbole when your prior post fecking stinks of it.
No, it is only used when it fits the agenda of said poster. Same for the possession % or number of shots.
Eye test and stats tell me we performed well and should have beaten Palace.
My bad for posting in this childish thread where you’ll be called a moron for saying what everyone in the world thinks.
I’ll refrain from posting on this thread from now on..
The state of this website these days
There he goes with his hyperbole again. Sit down, babe.
It was 8 shots to 11 when we played Liverpool with 3 on target a piece. They were extremely ruthless with their shots and once it became 2-0 it was game over and we were played off the park.
I didn't really need to go far back with an example to show how XG and shots don't really tell the true events of a game.
No it’s not. I know you’re being sarcastic but still.
Or ‘well and truly fecked’. Toss a coin.
Which year?
It wasn't even a tradition and it wasn't the norm of the time. United simply stumbled on two genuinely great managers who had the character and abilities to lead an organization for decades. For some reason people decided to look at it backwards and pretend that these two managers had success because they had long tenures.
A 'bogey team' is only an interesting term when talking about a top team that's likely to win most matches they play. Most of these examples of yours are perfect. An all-conquering Utd team that just couldn't seem to win against a seemingly weak team for an extended period of time.
Otherwise, I guess we can say that poor Luton just kept running into their bogey teams last season. Terrible luck!
Game state mattered a lot in terms of the stats, imo.
We performed to a very high level in the first 60min and could/should have been 2-0 up at that point. And if that had happened, the last 30min almost certainly plays out very differently, with it ending up looking an extremely comfortable win.
Especially as bringing on Rashford, Hojlund and Ugarte has a very different impact on the game if we're ahead and Palace are leaving space looking for an equalizer, as opposed bringing them on when we're still trying to break Palace down.
So while @Suv666 is right that in the end the stats looked relatively close (though we were still obviously better), that doesn't really provide the full picture if you're using the stats to evaluate the performance.
How have we ended up in a position where we look so much better with a fit and healthy Eriksen than without him, and we have absolutely zero backup for him, or someone with his skill set of a younger age? What sort of squad building is that?
You didn't answer my question though.
We had the game under control and created enough changes in the first half (even despite Bruno trying to do his thing completely off sync with the rest of the team). Once Rashford and Hojlund entered the pitch, we apparently lost the groove and played very much like last season, bypassing the midfield and going long way too often, and played ping pong between the CBs a lot (without pushing the game forward). So the more difficult part of the game we somehow had under control, and yet somehow Palace picked themselves up in the later stages of the game. Why do you think that was?
So, back to the point on "coaching impact" - either only Eriksen Zirkzee Mainoo and Amad are soaking it up, or the improvement doesn't actually come from coaching and it's rather the players being able to play a different style than what ETH wanted to implement last season?
It's not a dig at you btw, just trying to figure out the impact of coaching 6 games into the season vs actually having better players.
Do you love complaining just for the sake of it?
Eriksen plays the same role as Bruno and Mount. Except Mount is injured and Bruno is in bad form + Bruno loses balls all the time, while Eriksen doesn't. But from the perspective of squad playing the three can play same roles.
It's not that we don't have backup for Eriksen, it's that he is the backup! Bruno and Mount are ahead of him in packing order but not delivering
If Bruno was doing great, yesterday's midfield could have been Bruno-Mainoo-Ugarte
Also worth mentioning that Mainoo is not exactly tearing it up, as well. So Erik needed to add creativity and it was brilliant move from him to start Eriksen, since nobody thought it would work. It did.
If anything, Erik should have taken Bruno off in the second half but he didnt have the balls to do it
At the end of the day, with everything that could have been done, we didn't win yesterday mostly because we were not lucky. If any of those shots that hit woodwork went in, if Dean Henderson didn't make on of the saves, we could have been 2 or 3 up in the first half and it would have been over
Many of you dont realize how much football a tthe top level is about thin margins and how much luck can still play a role
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