Palace have been poor this year, I think losing Olise and Andersen has set them back a lot (they haven't really replaced either). Tottenham and Villa are going to be much bigger tests, we should dispose of Palace quite comfortably.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
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Palace have been poor this year, I think losing Olise and Andersen has set them back a lot (they haven't really replaced either). Tottenham and Villa are going to be much bigger tests, we should dispose of Palace quite comfortably.
Two different conversations.
It's ridiculous to say 4th means nothing to a side that finished 8th.
Ok, let me rephrase that too. What does 4th do to us if we win the Europa?
I rather see us at least get close to the top teams than accept 4th.
It’s a long way to move from 8th to challenging City and Arsenal though. If we finished 4th this year and won the UEFA, whilst playing with style, I’d regard that as a good season which would get ETH his final year. That’s a long way off currently though!
Placing any value on the Barnsley game wouldn't really be a great thing to do. However, enjoying a nice Tuesday evening 7 nil win shouldn't be hard.
I mean we finished 2nd and 3rd and got embarrassed in the CL too... Might as well aim for a finish outside the top 4.
I get that but we went from 3rd to 8th.... I mean personally finishing 4th, could be a good season but I do want to see us also get results against teams around us, last season we were really poor at that. We barely competed in those games.
Yeah of course, as a game it was enjoyable and refreshing to see us beat a team convincingly - even if it was a League One team. I don't even take these wins for granted anymore, we struggled against Newport last season.
Not sure how anyone could take it for granted. I honestly expected a poor performance with a low scoring win. It was thoroughly enjoyable though, even if in the grand scheme of things it might not mean much.
You think 8th to title challenge is a fair expectation? I don't think it's impossible but for me, it's my optimistic expectation. While imo our squad isn't as far away from the other challengers' as some might think, to mount title challenge takes a level of mental resilience that's cultivated over time and I don't think we have this yet.
My realistic expectation is that we compete with the weakest link of the three challengers. E.g. last season, that was Liverpool.
If we're 4th we're close to the "top teams" of City, Liverpool and Arsenal. If the points gap is not very many too, even better.
Honestly at this point I don't see how we can moan about getting 4th when there are comfortably 3 teams better than us and arguable a couple more. It's not where we SHOULD be... But it's factually where we are.
I think we should be top 3. I'm bullish
I think we should be top 3. I'm bullish
I'm convinced Arsenal will drop off this season so if we look after ourselves who knows
They've looked a bit wank so far alright.
No Odegard now too. I wonder how long before the usual suspects pick up a niggle on top.
Agree with your acid test points, those are the games where the strong separate themselves from the weak, something we've repeatedly failed to do recently.
That being said, I disagree with your whole "a team that's spent 1 Billion should be this" part. This isn't a 1 billion pound team, the whole world and it's mother knows that. So for me, it makes no sense to place that expectation on us. That's just setting yourself up for further disappointments. Set expectation on what we are, not what we should be.
I apologise, I mean to say we should finish third with close gap to the top 2. I know they are better but I believe that is fair because Ten Hag has had 2 full seasons to work on things, it was partly his fault we finished 8th, that should not be a barometer of where we start our expectations. Las season like Liverpool would be a good season yes.
Liverpool have a new manager with a newish team they constructed in the last 3 years. Ten Hag has had 11 new players now, so no excuses for me.
League position is obviously very important, but it always comes with caveats etc. For example, Jose and Ole managed to get second place finishes. But in neither instance did it represent where we were at as a team, or what level the manager was at. In fact, I'm pretty sure Xg had us around 4th in Ole's second place finish.
We could well finish 3rd or 4th, but look entirely unconvincing or, we could get 3rd or 4th and play good football/get good wins against the top 6. Both scenarios could potentially have us in the same position, but each scenario will heavily dictate how the fans feel about ETH.
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I think I said something similar in another thread, but to be as optimistic as possible:
- Villa, Spurs, Chelsea and Newcastle are all different shades of alright. I can't see any mounting a title challenge. We can finish above all of them.
- Liverpool are in the post-Klopp era and we've already seen a bit of a wobble under Slot. They could easily fall into the pack and we can finish above them.
- Arsenal have had two seasons falling short in their attempts to surpass City. There could be a bit of mental fatigue there, and they've also seen a few injuries at the start of this season. We could finish above them if they drop off.
- City are now fighting an unprecedented number of charges, with some potential punishments effectively ending their project. It's only been one game since the trial started, but by all accounts they didn't look like themselves. Who knows what effects this will have on the squad's morale over the coming months.
The 'money spent' point has been obscelete for a decade now. We've overspent massively, and between Antony and Maguire that's around 160m of that "1bn" number. Says it all.
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It's a point that basically renders others made void, as far as I'm concerned.
Any judgment on spending has to be made post-INEOS.
Just with Ten Hag, we've got £80 million on Antony, £60 million on Casemiro, £50 million on Mount and £45 million on Onana.
Hojlund hardly represented value for money either.
People will simultaneously pin the poor signings and the wasted money on Ten Hag, and then point the money spent and not the players we have as a reason we should be challenging for the league.
They've been outrageously lucky with injuries for 2 seasons now. Hopefully that levels out this season.
I agree with this. Our main thing would be to do our job. I know its optimistic and may not happen but something like win 5/6 games in a row, that will breed confidence in our players. If we win 5/6 PL games in a row, it means we would be beating Spurs or Chelsea along the way.
I also think there is alot of negativity from our games, Brighton one was fine margins, we could easily have won the game and Liverpool was individual mistakes costing us, it can happen.
Two brilliant games for me. 10 scored and none conceded, I could get used to that.
Also, some of the in-possession stuff against both Southampton (especially in the second half) and Barnsley was genuinely gorgeous. I've said it in this thread before, but I genuinely think we have real quality when playing in congested spaces. Amad, Bruno, Zirkzee, Erikesen, Mainoo, Mount, and even Casemiro really thrive playing these almost rondo-style pass and move sequences in small spaces. Add Dalot, Shaw, Mazraoui, Martinez and De Ligt (plus Onana in goal), and this team (or at least, the starting XI) is built perfectly to play Ajax-style pass-and-move football. Even Ugarte seems like he can be relied on to at least keep it simple in possession. Plus, Rashford, Garnacho and Hojlund are all great options on the transition so we'll always have that threat if teams leave gaps. Much to look forward to this season.
And even Ten Hag seems a lot more confident and relaxed in press conferences lately. He knows the quality in the team, and will back himself to produce good football with this lot as he did with Ajax. I made a thread about the 'open heart surgery' under Ten Hag in the summer about how vast the scale of the change has been over the past 3 summers. And this is certainly the most coherently built United squad of the post-Fergie years, in my opinion, even accounting for the wasted sums on Antony (just not good enough), Casemiro (just signed too late in his career) and Mount (not sure he ever fit given we have Bruno in his position and injuries are only making it seem worse, but I do rate him as a player). Add a high quality left back who is good in possession and can tuck in to midfield (is Gutierrez at Girona still doing well?), another wide player (I'd love for us to pick up Rodrygo if Ancelotti struggles to fit him, Vinicius and Mbappe into the same team) and a game controlling #6 (Zubimendi would be the dream but he seems adamant about staying at Sociedad. Lots of people on this forum seem to like Alan Varela at Porto but don't know much about him) and you have a side that should be able to dominate most teams in Europe. Maybe even a goalkeeper to improve on Onana. Obviously this is predicated on Garnacho/Hojlund/Zirkzee/Amad stepping up and sharing the goalscoring mantle with Rashford/Bruno. But I really like the state the squad is in. It's now on Ten Hag to show he can mould the team the way he did at Ajax. Hopefully, the penalty save vs. Southampton is a genuine turning point and performance like the ones we've seen this past week become the norm.
Also, some of the in-possession stuff against both Southampton (especially in the second half) and Barnsley was genuinely gorgeous. I've said it in this thread before, but I genuinely think we have real quality when playing in congested spaces. Amad, Bruno, Zirkzee, Erikesen, Mainoo, Mount, and even Casemiro really thrive playing these almost rondo-style pass and move sequences in small spaces. Add Dalot, Shaw, Mazraoui, Martinez and De Ligt (plus Onana in goal), and this team (or at least, the starting XI) is built perfectly to play Ajax-style pass-and-move football. Even Ugarte seems like he can be relied on to at least keep it simple in possession. Plus, Rashford, Garnacho and Hojlund are all great options on the transition so we'll always have that threat if teams leave gaps. Much to look forward to this season.
And even Ten Hag seems a lot more confident and relaxed in press conferences lately. He knows the quality in the team, and will back himself to produce good football with this lot as he did with Ajax. I made a thread about the 'open heart surgery' under Ten Hag in the summer about how vast the scale of the change has been over the past 3 summers. And this is certainly the most coherently built United squad of the post-Fergie years, in my opinion, even accounting for the wasted sums on Antony (just not good enough), Casemiro (just signed too late in his career) and Mount (not sure he ever fit given we have Bruno in his position and injuries are only making it seem worse, but I do rate him as a player). Add a high quality left back who is good in possession and can tuck in to midfield (is Gutierrez at Girona still doing well?), another wide player (I'd love for us to pick up Rodrygo if Ancelotti struggles to fit him, Vinicius and Mbappe into the same team) and a game controlling #6 (Zubimendi would be the dream but he seems adamant about staying at Sociedad. Lots of people on this forum seem to like Alan Varela at Porto but don't know much about him) and you have a side that should be able to dominate most teams in Europe. Maybe even a goalkeeper to improve on Onana. Obviously this is predicated on Garnacho/Hojlund/Zirkzee/Amad stepping up and sharing the goalscoring mantle with Rashford/Bruno. But I really like the state the squad is in. It's now on Ten Hag to show he can mould the team the way he did at Ajax. Hopefully, the penalty save vs. Southampton is a genuine turning point and performance like the ones we've seen this past week become the norm.
Back to back wins with 10 goals scored.
Happy days, for now at least.
Happy days, for now at least.
Good post. Measured and accurate take
You are expecting a title challenge from us this season?
Why shouldn't fans expect a club that's spent the obscene money we have over the past two summers, to not at least resemble a team that's looking to challenge? When should we expect to challenge if not now?
We have a manager who should have a clear, dominant playing style at this point, and should have United very consistent in the league this season.
I'm asking the poster specifically if they are expecting us to challenge for a title this season.
Fair enough, but I think if we're not at least looking like a team that can actually challenge in the next year or two, you have to look at the manager.
That's going to take a few years and one of the other three falling down. Hopefully City will get relegated for a decade of cheating but the corruption of football suggests they won't.
Which is different from an arbitary if he isn't challenging in his 3rd season i.e. this season then he should be sacked. As I assume if he ends the season in top 4 and overall has shown that the team/tactics just requires maybe 2 or 3 proper big signings to challenge for a league that you would be fine with him staying on?
Yes, I expect alot more than lets aim for 4th every season.
So just to be clear, if the team finishes this season in top 4, with a cup and performances look like we are 2 or 3 proper signings away from a title challenge e.g. a new top striker, top midfielder, you think we should sack Ten Hag and start again?
and what were you expecting to see in a 2nd season?
2nd season I was expecting a more dominant style, competitive in getting to quarters of CL, 10-15 points off the top 2 and maybe a cup.
I dont expect to see a manager in his third season get schooled by a manager in his first 5 games at home. I really dont expect to wonder what team will turn up at every football game.
That is a big ask, saying 2 or 3 signings away to challenge. A manager who after 2 full seasons has got a brand new 11 signed for him, should not need 2 / 3 players to challenge.
I at least expect going into home games and thinking we are here to compete, not thinking oh oh what will the score be today?
Winning league and FA cups is good, I think that is what has saved his job but not being competitive at all against clubs we aspire to be like is not good enough for me.
This season's it's not happening and never was, however it's not unreasonable to expect us to look like a team that could challenge in a year of so, though an actual challenge is probably 2 years away
So again just to clarify for my understanding, if this season we finished 10-15 points off of 2nd place, won Europa league and continued the trend we've started the season off with of creating loads of chances whilst also showing better defensive improvement as the season goes on resulting in better control of matches, you think he should be sacked?
No. That is what I want from us this season. 10-15 points of the top would mean we are winning alot of games, and say January we are in a longshot conversation about challenging but fall off slightly. Its a building block.
However; if you look at the last few seasons, the team finished 4th has been closer to the team 8th than the top 2, which is where I would have say look at the context of the season and perhaps sack him. Which is why I dont think finishing 4th is all that of a season.
Look at our season last year, 2/3 more wins and we would have been top 4.
First off, I appreciate you humouring me on this as there's no ill intent on my side.
So I am a little confused here maybe because initially you said we should be challenging this season. For me that is what Arsenal is doing/has done in the last 2 seasons. Finishing 15 points off off the top 2 (2nd place then being the bar) then last season that would be 74 points and a 4th place finish, EtH's 1st season that would be 69 points and a 5th place finish.
What I'm trying to understand is if this season we finish on 75 points, a 4th place finish and a cup, whilst showing consistency in the amount of chances we create, competitive against the top 4 teams and a better defensive display, do you think he should be sacked at the end of the season?
Exactly. As pointed out earlier, there's always caveats to league finishes. I'm someone who has little faith in ETH, but if he starts to dominate games, beats some of the top 6, and gets us a comfortable top four finish, then he'll start to change my mind.
The biggest thing for me is that I expect a monumental improvement in our playstyle, and a huge improvement in terms of results against stronger teams. He could conceivably get a top 4 finish where we still look hopeless, and that wouldn't cut it. There's so many nuances and variances to be considered, and saying definitively one way or the other that top 4 is/isn't good enough is far too simplistic.
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