Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Rusholme Ruffian said:
except for the fact that one had a contract for 2.5 years, the other was for 5 months. Other than that tiny detail everything is identical.

Dude, what is with you, I am more than happy for you to have your opinion? You disagree - well done!
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Yeah, 2.5 years and 5 months, that changes everything. Was RR given 2.5 years as caretaker manager? No. He was given till end of the season just like Ole was. One did good job in that period that made club to hire him as permanent manager (which was a mistake) and other was so shit that club even cancelled his 2 year contract (or he left on his own, depends on which version one believes). 2 managers walked into very identical scenarios and their tenure took different paths over the course of the season.

Not sure why it's so bothering you that someone called out double standards on internet forum. Yes, that's my opinion too, that few have completely different standards based on who the manager is.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, 2.5 years and 5 months, that changes everything. Was RR given 2.5 years as caretaker manager? No. He was given till end of the season just like Ole was. One did good job in that period that made club to hire him as permanent manager (which was a mistake) and other was so shit that club even cancelled his 2 year contract (or he left on his own, depends on which version one believes). 2 managers walked into very identical scenarios and their tenure took different paths over the course of the season.

Not sure why it's so bothering you that someone called out double standards on internet forum. Yes, that's my opinion too, that few have completely different standards based on who the manager is.
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Why do you care so much man?! :lol:

If I was appointed on a 2.5 year contract - the initial 6 months as manager, then the following 2 as a consultant to modernise the club (to the extent where I even tell the press I might stay on as manager) then - personally - I would probably approach things differently than if I was just brought in on a deal until the end of the season to cheer improve morale, steady the ship, ready to handover to another guy 6 months down the line.You may disagree, but I don't think I am suggesting something that is nonsensical?

Why not just give up with your hypocrisy thing? You're making yourself look a bit obsessed.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Why do you care so much man?! :lol:

If I was appointed on a 2.5 year contract - the initial 6 months as manager, then the following 2 as a consultant to modernise the club (to the extent where I even tell the press I might stay on as manager) then - personally - I would probably approach things differently than if I was just brought in on a deal until the end of the season to cheer improve morale, steady the ship, ready to handover to another guy 6 months down the line.You may disagree, but I don't think I am suggesting something that is nonsensical?

Why not just give up with your hypocrisy thing? You're making yourself look silly.
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The posts are out there, it was very obvious what it means. The only ones looking silly are the posters who had so high standards that they expected players to improve by training midseason but thinks RR had nothing to do with how we played during his time. If that's not called double standards, not sure what is.

No, just because RR had 2.5 year deal doesn't mean he had to do a shit job in 6 months. That's from Moyes book of excuses "I thought I will be given 6 years". This is exactly what I'm talking about and thanks for proving with every post of yours. Just give as many excuses as possible for RR but somehow have very high standards for Ole during his caretaker tenure.
 
He’s done a fantastic job and comfortably expectations in his first season. If Casemiro’s unfortunate and somewhat unfair suspensions didn’t happen, I think we could have got a few more points in the league and maybe have got passed Sevilla in the EL too (I know he played but he clearly takes a few games to get up to full speed again).

Now we need to build on our momentum in the summer and give him sufficient backing. We need to be smart with incomings and ruthless with members of the squad who aren’t of the required level. Hopefully we see the sale of the club accelerate after the FA Cup final so we can really kick on and not miss out on ETH’s primary targets.
 
roonster09 said:
The posts are out there, it was very obvious what it means. The only ones looking silly are the posters who had so high standards that they expected players to improve by training midseason but thinks RR had nothing to do with how we played during his time. If that's not called double standards, not sure what is.

No, just because RR had 2.5 year deal doesn't mean he had to do a shit job in 6 months. That's from Moyes book of excuses "I thought I will be given 6 years". This is exactly what I'm talking about and thanks for proving with every post of yours. Just give as many excuses as possible for RR but somehow have very high standards for Ole during his caretaker tenure.
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So now your desperation is leading to you to the old straw man trick? Please point me to a post where I have said that RR had 'nothing to do with how we played during his time' - you are calling that double standards, but I am calling it 'you just making stuff up'. I've said he was a failure - I've just added some context, and I have never sought to absolve him of all blame.

I'm so curious as to why you think that a United fan would deliberately apply double standards to Ole (a legend of the club) versus Ralf Rangnick (someone who I'd never even heard of until United were linked with him)? So weird.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
So now your desperation is leading to you to the old straw man trick? Please point me to a post where I have said that RR had 'nothing to do with how we played during his time' - you are calling that double standards, but I am calling it 'you just making stuff up'. I've said he was a failure - I've just added some context, and I have never sought to absolve him of all blame.

I'm so curious as to why you think that a United fan would deliberately apply double standards to Ole (a legend of the club) versus Ralf Rangnick (someone who I'd never even heard of until United were linked with him)? So weird.
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Good question, maybe you should know the answer. Go on and tell us why.

Yeah I'm the one who is pulling strawman when its you coming up with "RR had 2.5 year contract, so his job was very different than Ole" when both of them were hired as caretaker manager.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, they had time to assess squad and plan well ahead for the next season, also most of the team were used to the training methods and tactical set up.

I just hope we back EtH completely this summer and our summer plans are not fecked by the take over talks.
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Yeah they’d be fools if they don’t back him further. Ideally the club is sold over the next week or two bringing at least a little bit of stability to plans and budget.
 
Waynne said:
Ralf was right on one thing though. The playing squad needs massive investment. What was that thing about, 'open heart surgery'? or something like that.
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Well… he was and he wasn’t. Of course, we need massive investment to compete with City. We all could see that and and let’s not call the man a genius for stating the obvious. The fact that Ten Hag was able to win a trophy, make another cup final and get us into 3rd with 200m and one transfer window shows that much of the improvement came from just knowing what the feck you are doing as a manager.
 
roonster09 said:
Good question, maybe you should know the answer. Go on and tell us why.
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erm? :confused: :wenger: At this point you seem to have lost all sense of reason. Just because you want there to be a reason - to help justify the absolute horseshit that you have typing this afternoon - doesn't mean that there is one.


roonster09 said:
Yeah I'm the one who is pulling strawman when its you coming up with "RR had 2.5 year contract, so his job was very different than Ole" when both of them were hired as caretaker manager.
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You should google 'strawman' as you clearly don't understand the meaning of the term.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
erm? :confused: :wenger: At this point you seem to have lost all sense of reason. Just because you want there to be a reason - to help justify the absolute horseshit that you have typing this afternoon - doesn't mean that there is one.



You should google 'strawman' as you clearly don't understand the meaning of the term.
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What? I'm asking the hypocrite or lets say posters who exhibited hypocrisy for the reason, and it's somehow wrong and unreasonable.

Maybe if you didn't post so much shit back then, you wouldn't have twisted so much. All you have done is dig bigger hole with every post to justify why you were a hypocrite, even posting nonsense like how RR and Ole walked into different set of circumstances when it couldn't have been more identical.

Ofcourse I know what strawman is, when I'm dealing with one right now.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
You are missing some more context with the Ole comparison - Ole's stats came off the back of being in charge for 2 and half years and spending nearly half a billion pounds. Yes, as an interim coach RR failed - so don't angrily call me some kind of apologist you weirdo - I'm just a United fan who looks at the bigger picture. He inherited an absolute shitshow, he was given a mangled remit that somehow included managing the immediate chaos and overseeing the restructure of the club, had no money to spend at all, and yet you are comparing him to a permanent manager? And if you think I am pointing out the context around RR because I am somewhat less than supportive about ETH then you should search my posts in this thread.
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Most managers come in because the previous manager failed. That’s literally the job. Ole can simultaneously not be good enough AND Ralf can be a shit manager. The job for Ralf as interim was to turn the season around, energize the players, break up the dressing room cliques, make top 4 and modernize the tactics. He failed to do his job and in fact was worse than Ole, record-wise. People feel obligated to give him a pass… why? I’m sure he’s a nice man, but he was an epic failure as an interim.
 
roonster09 said:
What? I'm asking the hypocrite or lets say posters who exhibited hypocrisy for the reason, and it's somehow wrong and unreasonable.

Maybe if you didn't post so much shit back then, you wouldn't have twisted so much. All you have done is dig bigger hole with every post to justify why you were a hypocrite, even posting nonsense like how RR and Ole walked into different set of circumstances when it couldn't have been more identical.

Ofcourse I know what strawman is, when I'm dealing with one right now.
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Have I hurt you at some point?! :lol::wenger:
 
DSG said:
Most managers come in because the previous manager failed. That’s literally the job. Ole can simultaneously not be good enough AND Ralf can be a shit manager. The job for Ralf as interim was to turn the season around, energize the players, break up the dressing room cliques, make top 4 and modernize the tactics. He failed to do his job and in fact was worse than Ole, record-wise. People feel obligated to give him a pass… why? I’m sure he’s a nice man, but he was an epic failure as an interim.
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This is the thing though - he wasn't only bought in as an interim was he? His contract included another two years with a remit to oversee (or at least advise on) the restructure of the club. I'm not arguing he wasn't a failure, I'm just saying that there is some additional context to consider. It's fine if you disagree but please don't call me a hypocrite like that other lunatic! :lol:
 
DSG said:
Most managers come in because the previous manager failed. That’s literally the job. Ole can simultaneously not be good enough AND Ralf can be a shit manager. The job for Ralf as interim was to turn the season around, energize the players, break up the dressing room cliques, make top 4 and modernize the tactics. He failed to do his job and in fact was worse than Ole, record-wise. People feel obligated to give him a pass… why? I’m sure he’s a nice man, but he was an epic failure as an interim.
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Hypocrites, as simple as that.

Different standards for different managers
 
roonster09 said:
Hypocrites, as simple as that.

Different standards for different managers
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You haven't managed to articulate why you think a United fan would deliberately hold Ole to different standards to Ralf Rangnick? That's because you know that short of being a member of Ralf's family there is no reason on earth why that would be the case. As a part-time detective you should know that once you have ruled out the impossible then what you are left with must be the truth. Which is: my personal belief is that Ralf was working to an extended remit to Ole, and therefore I would use different metrics to judge them. As I've said before this afternoon, Ole was a great choice of caretaker manager and a poor choice of permanent manager. Ralf was a decent choice as a consultant, and a poor choice of caretaker manager - and my personal take is that the former influenced his decisions as latter. In the interests of drawing a line under this horrendous diversion off the topic of the thread, then if you truly believe that this represents hypocrisy, then so be it - I hope this makes you feel the tingle of triumph in your underdeveloped ball-sack ;)
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
You haven't managed to articulate why you think a United fan would deliberately hold Ole to different standards to Ralf Rangnick?
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I have already said, how would I know when I'm not the one who made those posts. I'm asking the person who made the posts and somehow the poster thinks it's unreasonable question.
 
crossy1686 said:
And he will probably deserve it. That's a lot of money for someone who isn't that good, especially when we're crying out for a different kind of player and different positions.
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I think without knowing how he wants to set the team up overall, we can't say whether Mount is "that good" or "different" or right or wrong. I reckon he's earned the right this season to not have to listen to us Muppets second guess him.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
because there is no reason beyond what I have patiently explained to you you absolute loon!
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Sure thing :lol:

Who knows you might be one of those Jose lunatics who was so worked up that their master was sacked and replaced by a novice. I mean there are already clear cut examples of those, you might be one of those too. Who knows. Going by your Jose posts history, it's easy conclusion. There you go.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
You are missing the point badly here.

My criticisms of Ole came in the context of him being appointed PERMANENT manager. I would never have argued for RR to be made PERMANENT manager, therefore the comparison you are making is false. If Ralf had been made permanent and I hadn't held him to account for the same things that I did with Ole then THAT would have been hypocritical but you are comparing apples with oranges once again.

As I keep having to point out, the crux of my argument about RR is that he was given a confused remit, and my belief is that he was caught between doing the job of a pure caretaker (like Ole), and working towards his wider remit of modernising the club - two things that are sometimes at odds with each other. Ole didn't have that confusion, and his goals for the season were therefore clearer - again in my opinion. Ergo, I would use different measures to assess their performance. A pure caretaker I would expect to come in, improve morale, put an arm around players, not make wholesale changes and steady the ship so that a new man comes in with a clean slate and a happy dressing room.We know that RR was given this dual role which was supposed to change to a consultancy role at the end of the season, but in his first presser he even talked about how he might recommend that he stays on as manager, so it it obviously was not clear to him what would happen at the end of the season. Therefore, again in my fecking opinion, he started to make more fundamental changes midway through the season (e.g. changing to a pressing style, calling out underperforming players, and speaking out about the state of the club) that were likely to result in a less successful season in the short term, but which - in his mind - were probably necessary steps towards a creating a better club in the longer term. Nowhere have I argued that he was on the right track, or would have been a success, I'm just pointing out some context, and this is why I personally would judge him using different metrics to Ole who was brought in with a different, more simple, remit. This is my personal opinion, and you are, of course, welcome to disagree, but you are way off beam with this attempt to paint me as a hypocrite.
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I’m really sorry I touched a nerve there, mate, by calling Ralf shit. Seems like you’ve somehow found yourself in the unenviable position of defending Ralf, which no one should ever have to do.

To be a bit reductive in your argument above, are we now giving Ralf credit for falling on his own sword for the good of the club? When he started making those comments in the pressers, it was January. We were still within touching distance of top 4. Openly criticizing the club and the players was a ploy to save his reputation. I get why some fans felt better: someone at the club was saying out loud what we all were thinking. That’s fine, but it was a really poor managerial tactic. The players hit back by saying they thought training sessions were too simple, pre-game preparation was poor, assistant coaches were not qualified, etc. As a result, the dressing room imploded, results cratered. Having empathy for Ralf is fine, but he caused a lot of his own problems IMHO.

Look, this is an ETH thread. He’s done very well given the shambles we were in at the end of last season.
 
roonster09 said:
Sure thing :lol:

Who knows you might be one of those Jose lunatics who was so worked up that their master was sacked and replaced by a novice. I mean there are already clear cut examples of those, you might be one of those too. Who knows. Going by your Jose posts history, it's easy conclusion. There you go.
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Good grief you have spent a lot of time on my post history this afternoon haven't you? WTF is wrong with you :wenger:

I mean, I could ask the same question again - why would a United fan be so in love with Jose that they would deliberately shit on a club legend?! It makes literally no sense.
 
Rusholme Ruffian said:
Good grief you have spent a lot of time on my post history this afternoon haven't you? WTF is wrong with you :wenger:

I mean, I could ask the same question again - why would a United fan be so in love with Jose that they would deliberately shit on a club legend?! It makes literally no sense.
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fecking hell, you are asking me wrong questions, You should be asking that questions to yourself, not me. And also that's sort of dumb question considering the same behavior was exhibited by 100s of posters on caf, Jose boys who were relentless in criticizing Ole from day one. So maybe you should do a survey on them.

Again, not sure which part of the world you live in or maybe you still use dial up modem, it's easy to search for posts using key words, it barely takes few seconds.
 
DSG said:
I’m really sorry I touched a nerve there, mate, by calling Ralf shit. Seems like you’ve somehow found yourself in the unenviable position of defending Ralf, which no one should ever have to do.

To be a bit reductive in your argument above, are we now giving Ralf credit for falling on his own sword for the good of the club? When he started making those comments in the pressers, it was January. We were still within touching distance of top 4. Openly criticizing the club and the players was a ploy to save his reputation. I get why some fans felt better: someone at the club was saying out loud what we all were thinking. That’s fine, but it was a really poor managerial tactic. The players hit back by saying they thought training sessions were too simple, pre-game preparation was poor, assistant coaches were not qualified, etc. As a result, the dressing room imploded, results cratered. Having empathy for Ralf is fine, but he caused a lot of his own problems IMHO.
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Undoubtedly, and nowhere - how ever much obsessive post history research anybody might want to undertake - would you find me laying out an argument for him being a success, or wanting him to stick around. Maybe I do give him a bit more benefit of the doubt than he deserved in terms of how much his 'double remit' affected his decision making - but it comes from a genuine place. It's just my opinion at the end of the day.
 
roonster09 said:
fecking hell, you are asking me wrong questions, You should be asking that questions to yourself, not me. And also that's sort of dumb question considering the same behavior was exhibited by 100s of posters on caf, Jose boys who were relentless in criticizing Ole from day one. So maybe you should do a survey on them.

Again, not sure which part of the world you live in or maybe you still use dial up modem, it's easy to search for posts using key words, it barely takes few seconds.
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I'm utterly confused by your choice to take this thread even FURTHER off topic by bringing Jose bloody Mourinho into this?! Is everything OK?
 
nickm said:
I think without knowing how he wants to set the team up overall, we can't say whether Mount is "that good" or "different" or right or wrong. I reckon he's earned the right this season to not have to listen to us Muppets second guess him.
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While I mostly agree with you, the signing of Antony suggests we can't let Ten Hag have whomever he wants and at whatever price. These players will still be around once he's gone most likely.
 
For the first time since Sir Alex, there is a belief that we have the right man for the job. Despite the ups and downs, I never doubted EtH’s capabilities to manage this team. He needs to be backed in the summer so that we don’t waste the one appointment we have got right in the last decade. He is not a miracle worker, no one except SAF was/is, and if we don’t get the right players in, we may in for a tough season next year.
 
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