So, what you are saying is that what ETH learned today is that he approached the game the wrong way???
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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So, what you are saying is that what ETH learned today is that he approached the game the wrong way???
From my perspective, although the whole team played badly against an outstanding City side, some players have been at the club for 5+ years and you just see this stuff constantly from them-they'll have a good period of form and then they'll be absolutely dreadful for a period where even the basics of football look like a challenge. As a fan when do you start to lose hope that they'll become the players of the standard and consistency that you want them to be? That's something i'm worried about even though we're in very early days of this rebuild.
I think we've got a really good manager at the club and i'm confident that he can do a great job but i'm not sure that I see title winning 'elite' players in Rashford, McTominay, Bruno, Sancho, Dalot (who has come on leaps and bounds just lately but the jury is still out) Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, Martial. There are some good squad players there but I wonder if the club can be ruthless enough to assess them and get rid of underperformers.
As I said in the post above, the manager should learn about his players, about himself and also the game preparation. The issue here is that for some strange reason, some of you seem to think that only our perspective exist when it's the most pointless of them. The key point here is what he expected from the player, what the player actually did in comparison to these expectations and how he himself prepared the team.
An example is with him mentioning that the players didn't believe in themselves, that's important because it's an issue that needs to be fixed. It's actually something that was mentioned a few months ago in the context of I believe the Buffalo Bills, about the fact that players and staff need to believe that they are good enough before realizing on the field, that belief is how people often gets extra focused, how they are able to give that little extra they didn't had before.
The other thing is that it can also be a point of reference, the goal is to improve and to be better against City next time, even if you lose, you need to lose better. And long term it can be way more valuable than stealing points because it validates your efforts.
No not for me. Always preferred Rashford on the left. Martial would have started the season at 9 if fit.
He's having his first year learning the league just like Pep did.
Maybe in other leagues you can dominate and win matches with pure technique, but in England you need that along with speed, strength and fight.
City didn't outplay us technically, they were faster, they ran with the ball and we couldn't contest them, they were hungrier and got to the ball first in so many occasions.
ETH will realise that we just cannot play Eriksen and Fernandes together in midfield against sides like that if we want to win. It's that simple.
Maybe in other leagues you can dominate and win matches with pure technique, but in England you need that along with speed, strength and fight.
City didn't outplay us technically, they were faster, they ran with the ball and we couldn't contest them, they were hungrier and got to the ball first in so many occasions.
ETH will realise that we just cannot play Eriksen and Fernandes together in midfield against sides like that if we want to win. It's that simple.
Get your point but I think, it is a very very generous one to be made. I mean, come on - most of the regular posters on here could have told him, that a half arsed pressing against City will be problematic. And that shoring up defense and trying to go for quick breaks probably has the best chances of getting a point (especially today when City were playing without Rodri and Diaz (+ Laporte/Stones).
I'd also argue, that the lesson isn't as substantial as you picture it. Everton is not at all able to play like City is. So the learnings aren't applicable (at least they shouldn't - against a weaker opponent it might be benefitial to start with two chance creators)
You mean in the game against City last year?
No.
For me, if every player (bar maybe Martial) performed badly, the problem is not individuals anymore.
ok, so next game Maguire up top und Martinez in goal? Trial and error?
Honestly, I get your point. But I think, it gets a bit polarized now. You are argueing against people voting for a more negative approach today. Got it. I can say for me personally, what I would have liked would have been a less positive approach. So not as strong of a contrast. Apart from that, I guess, this point wouldn't be so controversial, if we would have anything to show for based on the decision to stay "positive". I can tell you, I'd be happy going into halftime 4 goals down when we would have had two or three good chances of scoring ourselves. But that wasn't the case. That is what I meant, the plan didn't work full spectrum. Get as positive as you want ETH, draw games 4:4, lose them 5:6 - I'll happily take that as progress but don't be angry if I question some decisions if you choose a plan that doesn't work in terms of chance creation nor chance prevention.
Keep in mind that I didn't quote you initially, I didn't question your point. You questioned mine.
Well we disagree on that whole heartedly.. but hey it’s a forum, opinions are the name of the game.
we should try to get something out of all of our games. Always.
The thing I appreciated the most about Arsenal and Liverpool games is that we showed flexibility to play a different game, cede possession for large chunks of the game, hit them on a counter, play a more focused defensive performance.
Today was basically the same as the Brentford game where we tried to play in a way that was not possible but obviously stumbled upon a team that was also on another level ability wise. If they needed 9-0 today they would have easily got it, we were lucky they walked through that second half or it could have been properly embarrassing.
I definitely would not attribute today’s loss to us trying to play some amazing football, we were just tactically naive and tried to play in a way that nobody has ever succeeded playing against this City team. Even when they lost in CL in the last years it was always because teams were OK to adapt and nullify their strengths. We did not even attempt to do that. We can shit as much as we want on Ole but we did have a handful of good performances against City with him because we did exactly that. I’m not even saying we should have parked the bus but there is absolutely zero evidence you can go against City with one defensively capable midfielder that isn’t even very good and not get hammered. The thing is, the approach we took today we could play that game a hundred times and we would have lost heavily every single one of them. There are different approaches that will fail 9 out of 10 but on that rare one will get you a result. It is never fine to lose a game the way we did today.
It is early days and plenty of time to get things right but there are certainly both good and worrying signs. It seems that most people have either made up their minds that we need a new manager (which won’t solve anything) or that any poor performance is down to ETH trying to have us play amazing football (which is not true).
Today was basically the same as the Brentford game where we tried to play in a way that was not possible but obviously stumbled upon a team that was also on another level ability wise. If they needed 9-0 today they would have easily got it, we were lucky they walked through that second half or it could have been properly embarrassing.
I definitely would not attribute today’s loss to us trying to play some amazing football, we were just tactically naive and tried to play in a way that nobody has ever succeeded playing against this City team. Even when they lost in CL in the last years it was always because teams were OK to adapt and nullify their strengths. We did not even attempt to do that. We can shit as much as we want on Ole but we did have a handful of good performances against City with him because we did exactly that. I’m not even saying we should have parked the bus but there is absolutely zero evidence you can go against City with one defensively capable midfielder that isn’t even very good and not get hammered. The thing is, the approach we took today we could play that game a hundred times and we would have lost heavily every single one of them. There are different approaches that will fail 9 out of 10 but on that rare one will get you a result. It is never fine to lose a game the way we did today.
It is early days and plenty of time to get things right but there are certainly both good and worrying signs. It seems that most people have either made up their minds that we need a new manager (which won’t solve anything) or that any poor performance is down to ETH trying to have us play amazing football (which is not true).
Ten Hag's tactics today were just bizarre. The front line played fairly high but didn't actually press aggressively while the back line didn't push that high so there was far too much space between the lines and once the ball got moved forward the United wingers were always too high to help their fullbacks deal with overloads.
Frankly, it was an insane halfway-in, halfway-out strategy that was never going to work against a team like City that is great at rotating players into pockets of space between the lines and then attacking a retreating defensive line. Play between the lines, turn, overload a fullback who isn't getting any help (usually Dalot), put in a cutback. Rinse and repeat.
Frankly, it was an insane halfway-in, halfway-out strategy that was never going to work against a team like City that is great at rotating players into pockets of space between the lines and then attacking a retreating defensive line. Play between the lines, turn, overload a fullback who isn't getting any help (usually Dalot), put in a cutback. Rinse and repeat.
Could have sworn you replied to somebody who agreed to my point, but whatever.
Thing is, if he had changed the midfield he would have still been crucified for changing a winning team. He started our best team till now and got schooled. He will learn from it
Nah, he is supposed to be a top manager. Therefore you would expect him to have the nous to know when he needs to alter the team or tactics to fit the opposition. What's most bizarre is that we played quite deep and relied on counter attacks for most of the Liverpool and arsenal games but then decided to try something different for this game
The whole team is still mentally fragile. ETH’s comments after game is sensible. All started from the early yellow card on Dalot. We became more and more conservative and reactive especially after that first mess in our box. We never recovered really since then.
But this is only a convoluted way to just say the same thing many other people are saying:
ETH made a lot of mistakes in the set up, he approached this game in a naive way. He had 4 players that did not help in defence (Rashford, Sancho, Antony, Bruno) and you cannot do that against a team that breaks scoring records.
I am not sure why you think ETH had to actually confirm this. Isn't it obvious? This is not preseason. ETH actually wanted to WIN THIS GAME, not just try things. Did he come close to actually winning this game?
And then you assume that he now learned and next time will be better. But that's hypothetical. For now, we can say that ETH did not learn studying the tapes of the previous games we had against City in the past. Because I am sure he had studied City before deciding how to approach this game.
I still have trust in ETH, but he got it wrong today. Playing 4-2-3-1 with Ericksen and McTominay in midfield is just super naive and stupid.
Do you win the game playing differently? Is there a bonafide winning formula against City?
I think it's important for a head coach to allow his players to find solutions to issues that arise in a game. Unfortunately for us the solutions were not found and we lost both zonal and positional control in our right half space and wide space, which ultimately was the area where we lost the battle.
With hindsight we can look back on the game and say certain things could've been done differently, and that would be fair. But for me what's important is to learn from this game and move on with a positive intent in future games and build upon the good work whilst trying to eliminate the bad stuff.
And there's still quite a lot of bad stuff to eliminate from our play. But the key to succeeding here is to train the brain on the training ground in a repetitive way, which will hopefully lead to the good stuff overshadowing the bad stuff and hence seeing the work on the training ground manifesting itself on matchdays.
What a joke that was. Big game and first free kick first yellow card awful refereeing.
I actually feel comfortable with him at the helm. Usually after defeats like these in recent years I start to feel our coach is a dead man walking, but with Ten Hag I genuinely believe we're in safe hands provided he's backed.
I thought he was starting to get the squad fired up and believing again, and yet today was a step back to Rangnick. Team selection was also a bit naive, which didn’t help.
Disappointing game in every sense and one that suggests we haven’t made a great deal of progress.
The players were sloppy and half arsed but it didn’t seem like we had much of a game plan either. Just seemed to be pumping balls over the top at every opportunity and hoping something would happen.
Disappointing game in every sense and one that suggests we haven’t made a great deal of progress.
The players were sloppy and half arsed but it didn’t seem like we had much of a game plan either. Just seemed to be pumping balls over the top at every opportunity and hoping something would happen.
I am sure that ETH approaches ANY game with the mentality that he will win the game.
Otherwise, he is not a top manager.
This is an absolutely brilliant post and it's a good reminder of big picture thinking Vs small time thinking.
If you back yourself as a manager, you play the system and football you want to play, and get the players to play it - you never accept that "your" football isn't going to be good enough even against the biggest sides, because thats the sort of thinking that leads to a drop in standards. You back your players, you put them out there, then they live or die on their own. But you give them time to adapt; even Pep Guardiola took some thrashings while his players adapted - but football is football and coaching is coaching, and if the players are good enough they will do the job and if not you find someone else. Today's another learning experience and it's the hardest day he will have. Next time will be better because it has to be.
Kind of an example that comes to mind and hopefully it's what your saying - was Moyes clear and obvious mentality in the big games. He'd say "we are going to try to get some sort of result" against Bayern Munich or whoever and you KNEW he'd be saying "dig in defend hard and hope for a draw". But what the hell do you get out of that? Nicking a one nil win maybe once every five seasons while getting dicked 3-1 or 4-nil most of the time ...
But in order to do what you wanted him to do, he had to start the week with the mentality that he wasn't going to win the game with the approach that he wants to instill. Your suggestion is based on a manager doubting himself and his players to the point where he isn't even willing to see it with his own eyes.
Who would you have played instead that would have made a difference?
Keep in mind Bruno has put im some incredible shifts the last few games. Can hardly be called not contributing defensively.
Let me add two things:
1. Today we did not have any terrible individual errors. We were losing 6-1 because we were too open in the back. This loss is mostly on ETH, he made too many mistakes. We certainly needed to have two defensive players in the middle (perhaps Casemiro and Fred, plus Eriksen) and we needed to have Sancho and Antony helping in defense because neither Dalot nor Malacia are top players and it was expected that they will have a hard time today. We all hope that ETH learned his lesson.
2. This loss means very little. It was an expected loss. We won against Arsenal and Liverpool, which is great. We need to win against all the other teams. We are not expected to beat City, that's okay.
1. Today we did not have any terrible individual errors. We were losing 6-1 because we were too open in the back. This loss is mostly on ETH, he made too many mistakes. We certainly needed to have two defensive players in the middle (perhaps Casemiro and Fred, plus Eriksen) and we needed to have Sancho and Antony helping in defense because neither Dalot nor Malacia are top players and it was expected that they will have a hard time today. We all hope that ETH learned his lesson.
2. This loss means very little. It was an expected loss. We won against Arsenal and Liverpool, which is great. We need to win against all the other teams. We are not expected to beat City, that's okay.
That's assuming that this is what he asked of the players. Maybe he didn't, and maybe one important lesson learned is that his instructions about defending from the front didn't work - for whatever reason (which obviously he'd have to find).
I am afraid that real life does not work like that. You win any way you can win. You need to adapt. Especially when the other team has better players than your team.
But this is just a hypothesis based on nothing.
Edit: For example, did you see ETH screaming to Antony and Sancho for not helping in the back? Did you see him scolding them after we were down 2-0? Did you see him replacing them after 3-0 when they continued not following his orders?
You think that in real life adaptation happens before experience? And what makes you think that your "adaptation" would be more successful when it's the most used approach and a complete failure against this team?
Ten Hag will of course make mistakes but the most important thing is he how comes back from them… he is still learning things about his new team… he adapts his tactics based on the opposition as we seen against Liverpool when he decided to go long instead of play out from the back after getting spanked by Brentford… he’s already made ruthless decisions in dropping Ronaldo and Maguire. The 2 previous managers would never of done that… they stuck with the same 11 week in and week out even after losing and getting battered most weeks. This man is 100% the right man to make us successful again and when guardiola leaves city, we’ll be in a position to overtake them!
As is yours that Ten Hag set up not to defend from the front. Even if that's what's happened, it doesn't mean that it was intended.
More generally, that's an issue with a lot of the analysis after a failed game. People assume (at least implicitly) that everything that happened was intentional and therefore bad planning, but in reality, we usually don't know what the coach had wanted exactly (except when it gets explained afterwards). So when @JPRouve talks about learning, we can't actually be sure what's been learned exactly. Maybe Ten Hag now knows that his approach didn't work against City. Or maybe it's that it can't be executed with these players. Or maybe rather that it can't be executed until players get more confident, and/or more experienced.
Obviously, everybody is free to assume and hypothesize as they wish; but it would make sense if posters were a bit less self-assured in their analyses of United's approach and its execution.
Just read something about piers Morgan calling Ten Hag an arrogant deluded twerp for not playing Ronaldo or even bringing him on 
… what score did we beat your team mate?! 3-1! What’s Ronaldo done in the games he has played and what difference could he of made at 4-0 down?! Piers Morgan gets on my nerves.
… what score did we beat your team mate?! 3-1! What’s Ronaldo done in the games he has played and what difference could he of made at 4-0 down?! Piers Morgan gets on my nerves.Europe on Thursday, Ronny needs to be ready.Just read something about piers Morgan calling Ten Hag an arrogant deluded twerp for not playing Ronaldo or even bringing him on
Today against city I think ETH should have gone with a more defensive midfield and for once we had the personal to do it. Sancho and Antony gave little help to the defence and these are the little things that need to be worked on. We’ve played 3 of the top 6 teams and taken 6 points, 2 wins and a loss to city. Everyday is a learning day for ETH, on to the next game…..
Yeah I am starting to get that same feeling of not wanted much like Donny with Ole
Exactly, we can't really know what he will learn but now he has the tapes of his system against City with his instructions and he can compare it to what he envisioned. He can ask players why they did things a certain way and why they think it didn't work. He can adapt his instructions, change the players or change the entire framework he had in mind.
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