Ronaldo has been awful this season when on the pitch. His legs have truly gone now. Fans need to move on. He's been a tremendous player, one of the best of all time, but his involvement today wouldn't have changed anything.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Ronaldo has been awful this season when on the pitch. His legs have truly gone now. Fans need to move on. He's been a tremendous player, one of the best of all time, but his involvement today wouldn't have changed anything.
I think, you are reading too much into my statement. Some people on here said, that tactics don't matter and that tactics don't have to be adjusted because we are supposed to play a different way. That is why I reacted saying even Fergie adapted in certain games. And if you say, Fergie didn't do it in his early days, than that doesn't make it right, he then just made the same mistake. And I am sure nobody here is expecting him to throw all his ideas away for one game, but today he didn't seem to adjust to the opponent at all. And we paid for it. It can happen, early days for sure.
Maybe lets not start with that kind of talk again. Didn't really help back then with another manager, won't really help here. Some people might be more critical than others, lets not make it personal if not needed.
And a game like today could just as well used to learn about the capabilities of our players in a high pressure game against a superior opponent. Don't really understand, what exactly it is, what you are defending. It isn't like we tried to press very decisively or anything. It was a mishmash some trying to pressure and some stepping back. I guess, the criticism would be different, had we tried a high line and an actual press but we didn't.
How does one win long term ^^ ? I guess I know what you mean, but come on, you act as if we are asking him to throw all his materials out of a window and do 2-hour-course in Mourinho'ism. Just be more reserved, use one out of Eriksen and Bruno to add Fred or Casemiro, bring Elanga from the start to add some legs. If it doesn't work out, he could still move to what he started with.
How do you know, they are not
?edit: might have misunderstood your point. I guess you are right, players need to be put in certain situations to evaluate them. I think though, ETH could have done it in a way today, that wasn't so "blunt". But I guess, the two of us estimate the impact of certain changes in approach differently.
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What you say only makes sense if players are given instructions and managers can't try to teach them a new approach. And it's not as if right now, he has a lot of quality options that are ready for possession football, so today the best course of action is to try to change the players that we actually have.
Your never going to be technically dominant against this city side though. Against these teams you need to get to half time without conceding, stay in the game and hope to hit them on the break or with moments of magic. We were never ever ever going to out play city right now. We’re so far off that if ETH thought for one minute that could happen, he’s in for a shock .
only Fulham, bournemouth, Nottingham and leicester have conceding more goals than us this season (two of them are rock bottom in the table) Our ability to lose games by big margains is a massive red flat at the moment which needs to be addressed. I understand it’s not the long term game we want or the fun football we want to see being played.. but we can’t concede this many goals. Last season it was our downfall and it will be this season again.
I was listening to Ten Hag's post game press conference, where he blames the players for their lack of belief -- in game where the average Redcafe poster can see the flaws in the setup. Do you think the players wouldn't know they should be set up more conservatively? Do they try to say anything? Does ETG listen? Giving up 6 goals isn't going to make the players think the manager knows what he's doing. Or maybe they just will lose more faith in their teammates. It's harmful.
Does Ten Hag have a coaching staff? Or is this all just Ten Hag's long term vision on display no matter what?
Ronaldo isn't playing because he's a bit shit these days though I do agree there's not much difference between him and Rashford.
But you want to know where you are, you want to know what your players have. Interestingly for me your defeatist stance strengthen the idea of trying to play your game and see what you have or don't because if you go the negative way and lose the game, you lost everything, you wasted an entire game out of cowardice.
My bad then, watched from the tele which just showed frames of him sulking at the bench - but I see that might not be the full picture.
this isn’t Sunday league, this is the best league on the planet playing against the best team in the world (arguably). Experiments are okay but we were never going to beat city with that midfield. We can’t afford to fall too far behind the top 4 but if we keep experimenting as you suggest, we will. No CL next season will be a disaster.
I understand that, but his size and slowness is there for us to see early on, people go past him fairly easily. He is not a scholes type give it to the forwards (no shit) and hes definatly not a carrick either. Its a total waste of money and i pray he proves me wrong.
He was instead of Rabiot. His agent approached us after Rabiot deal fell through.
I'm curious what the correct expression would be sitting on the sidelines watching us in that game. Would it be better if he was texting? joking with people in the adjacent seats?
I remember Ronaldo's 2 footed tackle in a loss at City. Probably a good idea to leave him out, except something like that would have showed someone cared about the result....
We don't play City every weeks and a game way to City is an expected loss. So your stance don't make much sense. It's not a game that you expect to win, it's not 3 expected points, if anything it's exactly the kind of game where you can and should take risk. The games that we need to win in order to make top 4 are the vast majority of games against teams that are outside of the top 5/6 in the league. A game against City at the Etihad is not where you play for top 4.
Lets face it Casemiro was not a good signing for 70 million pounds. I thought we would of learning our lesson of signing players 30+ coming to the end of their current club but obviously not. Caicedo, Gravenbach, wirtz, Rice, Guimarez, Lamar, Bellingham, Bissouma would of all been better options. Until we sort the midfield out I don't think we have any hope of competing whatsoever, the wingers are not getting proper service whatsoever. I hate to say it but don't think Bruno will work in a midfield trio, the whole midfield needs to be gutted and started again.
Tbh with you I never said the requirement was to control the game in possession against City. But we should look to go away to Man City and show some endeavour on the ball where we look to impose ourselves on the game to some extent. Because to evolve as a team we must look beyond one or two games and not revert to going into our shells when faced with a Man City or Liverpool away, like we've done for several years and accepted our underdog role in the game. Liverpool were thrashed 5-0 away to Man City in 2017, but it didn't deter Klopp from his ideals. Arteta at Arsenal was thrashed 5-0 by Man City at the start of last season but it didn't deter him from working towards his ideals and making Arsenal a more dominant team.
Klopp and Arteta are coaches who like ten Hag have a clear and defined way of playing the game and will look to coach their teams to show some endeavour on the ball. And sometimes when you're trying to coach/teach your players to play a more expansive game, teething problems will arise because training the brain to control zones positionally with and without the ball isn't straight forward. And along the way there will be times where things will go wrong, but for me it's important to carry on working towards playing a more dominant brand of football because it will likely imo lead to better performances in the long run and expose the weaker players to ten Hag from a physical, technical and mental POV.
In the past we've reverted to type and it's preserved the careers of a number of players who just aren't good enough. I think it's important to have a vision on how you want your team to play which will then expose the players who don't fit that vision. And when those players are exposed to a play-style which requires more from them both technically and physically, then the decision to either keep them or move them on is easier.
Ive yet to see a manager as lucky as ole was.
If fergie had ole's luck as a manager he'd have a couple more cl medals to his name.
So having learned that today, what do you propose we do the next time we play a top team away? Say, if we draw City away in the Cup this season? Do we ‘chop and change’, given that we have now learned that some of these players are not up to it? Or do we just ‘stick to the plan’ because we have an identity and hope for the best? If it is the former, it is interesting that it took today to learn that Scott McTominay or Bruno Fernandes are not adept at keeping the ball at the highest level, or that Marcus Rashford cannot hold it and find a teammate under pressure.
For me, there is nothing noble about how we set up today. It’s not even as if we went down swinging and ‘went out on our shield’ so to speak. We didn’t get a shot off in the first half. We barely got into the penalty box. We didn’t exactly sacrifice defensive solidity for the sake of some sort of attacking principles. We were just lost. In the context of putting a team out to get a result in a football match, it is difficult to argue we went about it the wrong way. @Adnan post would be more applicable IMO if we resembled Liverpool of a few years ago who had a brilliant attack but pre-Allisson and VDV, were open and poor at the back. Perhaps they would go down 4-3 and it would be worth it, pending improvement in the market which they subsequently got. However, our attacking approach was seemingly on lieu of capable attackers, let alone capable defenders. We’be barely managed a shot on target all season, even against teams like Leicester and Sherriff. Clearly we were not ready to just play City off the park. Our approach was irresponsible today. We were not even defiantly playing to our strengths. We were playing to our weaknesses.
That was like the least contentious part of today and the last thing we should have the manager second guessed on. Rashford has goals and assists this season from playing the cf position better than Ronaldo, Martial has 2 goals and an assist in a little over 1 hour of play. They also achieve it without needing the gameplan bent around them so we can actually win games when they don't play well.
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Strangely, I don't really care about losing this, even with that score. It's early of the season, and I'd take a pasting in a few games if we're improving in general. EtH has lots of brownie points for me to still believe in him. No time to over-analyze everything.
And Rashford at #9 is the answer, is he?
Another awful performance from him.
I'll say it now, persistence with Sancho, Fernandes, Rashford and McTominay?
It will cost him his job.
Agree with this. The mentality of shutting up shop needs to go from this club. The manager can’t say trust the game plan only to abandon it v City imo. Test yourself and see where you are. We can play right v Leicester or big games at home every week and look good but we need to see where we are in the big games as well.
Let’s be honest, if we went to City and played well today we would be one of the best teams in Europe. That’s just not where we are at the minute
You are completely right. The question though is, should we really be as strict in a game against City when we didn't even manage to play expansive football against any of the other opponents this season? I get your point, and yes we shouldn't turn away from teething problems, but I argue that we wouldn't have done that (certainly not in a harmful way) had we adjusted at least a little today.
Even the most proactive manager will face situations from time to time where he has to adjust and get a bit more defensive. This should still be in line with the overall approach, sure, but at for me, I am not asking him to leave that line. But he didn't even get more defensive for his standards today. And that seems to be topic for some people.
He has got some things wrong, criticism is fair for now, i am sure with time we will improve. Also, i cannot be a pessimist all time, we haven't been only shit this season. I will take these 4 wins from 7 in the league even if you cant. yeah, you should read this thread more then, if you think there aren't people who are saying he is not good enough or we have been served the same shit.
Some excellent posts by @JPRouve and @Adnan, and I think @sullydnl had some a while back (in terms of thread pages, anyway) as well. A bit of context and perspective!
It's rare that City lose that way though, so it's no more useful than what Ten Hag tried. As has been said, it also undermines his approach, basically telling the players that they're not good enough to play his way for real. Long-term, that would not have been more helpful mentally than today's game.
But ... do you set up your team the same way vs City and vs Leicester? That's a bit naive I think.
In the first half, our three players at the top (Rashford, Antony, Sancho) did not help the defence, they were doing nothing at all. Both Dalot and Malecia were alone and couldn't cope.
Feckin hell guys! Let go of your obsession with Ole. You can defend ETH without having a go at Ole, esp. inventing evidently untrue things. I’d love to see the evidence of “ They failed to score at least 5-6 100% chances each game.”
What happens when you play negatively against City and lose 3-1? What did you achieve, what did you learn?
How many people are talking about closing shop though? Is it closing shop when you start with 2 CMs and 1 AM for example McFred plus Eriksen? Or a DM, a CM and a AM in Casemiro, Fred or McTom and Eriksen? No it isnt. We started with 1 CM plus 2 AMs asking one of those to play in the centre of the pitch. Plus we played Sancho AND Rashford who didn't really stand out in workrate, didn't they?
I agree - of course we shouldn't park the bus in a game vs City. But today seemed like as if we were unprepared or didn't even had an idea what City was good at.
Weren't most of not all our positive results against City when United set up defensively but agressive and physical in the centre while trying to go for fast counter attacks? So more or less the same receipe we applied a couple of weeks ago against Arsenal and Liverpool? Seems like a promising plan to me. And if you insist of lessons learned: I'd like to know if we could do vs a team like City with a player like Haaland.
And what would you say we learned and achieved today?
He was very naive with his team selection. Should’ve played with Case and McT + dropped Bruno, and played Fred to man mark De Bruyne. Killed them on the counter.
Everyone played badly, from defenders to attackers. Not a single player gave a decent performance. We only played better when City subbed almost half of their team, and they were leading 4 goals with 25 minutes left on the clock.
So what's there to learn (player wise)? Get rid off every player?
The only learning curve is tactic wise, it was not the right one with these set of players against City's set of players and tactic.
So what's there to learn (player wise)? Get rid off every player?
The only learning curve is tactic wise, it was not the right one with these set of players against City's set of players and tactic.
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I think he was the best midfielder they were going to get and ETH took him over not getting anyone. A lot like the Fred and Donny Van De Beek signings.
I have no doubts about this manager at all. He'll get this right over time. His post match puts conference was one again excellent.
Is anybody actualy saying we should be technically dominant against them though?
We should though be somewhat competitive in that regard. The gap should be closer.
Today we looked like we were in a division below.
And did it help us in any way? Ten Hag learned that his instructions and possibly the players he gave those instructions to weren't good enough for that kind of approach. Trial and Error.
And what did you learn today after losing 4-0 in the first half?
The only thing I learned is that it is a better idea to keep it 0-0 in the first half if you are facing a better team. At least, you may have a chance in the second half.
Did you learn something else?
Ronaldo being left out is nothing to do with pressing. It's because he's finished.
Ten hag knows it, everyone who watches football knows it and I'm sure deep down even Ronaldo knows it.
ok, so next game Maguire up top und Martinez in goal? Trial and error?Honestly, I get your point. But I think, it gets a bit polarized now. You are argueing against people voting for a more negative approach today. Got it. I can say for me personally, what I would have liked would have been a less positive approach. So not as strong of a contrast. Apart from that, I guess, this point wouldn't be so controversial, if we would have anything to show for based on the decision to stay "positive". I can tell you, I'd be happy going into halftime 4 goals down when we would have had two or three good chances of scoring ourselves. But that wasn't the case. That is what I meant, the plan didn't work full spectrum. Get as positive as you want ETH, draw games 4:4, lose them 5:6 - I'll happily take that as progress but don't be angry if I question some decisions if you choose a plan that doesn't work in terms of chance creation nor chance prevention.
I don’t think we are far along enough to not park the bus and hope for a result. If we became more pragmatic and came out with a close loss then it’s a bluff that doesn’t do us any good. Now Ten Hag 100 percent knows what’s missing and where we lacked so we can take it on against Everton next week.
It’s not like we set out to lose 6-3. Now we know Martial deserves to start, Sancho needs dropped and Casemiro has to come in.
I do think Ten Hag loses his vision a bit if he starts chopping and changing AM to DMs etc etc. I’m not saying it’s worth the loss but that way holds us in better stead than losing a closer match that doesn’t really tell us anything imo.
What’s weird is that our first half performance last year was better than this
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