I can't see us spending 150m+ in the Jan window, plus we must move on some of the remaining deadwood (I'd include Ronaldo in that). And as much as I love how we are bouncing back, fancying us for the title this season is just setting yourself up for disappointment and the team for an unfair backlash. That's just not how this stuff happens. CL qualification this season would be a massive achievement as it is.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Not too much of a surprise from watching us but we've had the lowest defensive line in the league so far by this measure.
If we had a proper transfer meaning Erik had got the players he wanted before pre season And no Ronaldo drama, we would certainly be among the favourites to win the title.
We would not have started with the two losses.
City are big favourites of course. But we can see United beat anyone else comfortably.
Being ok with Top 4 is conditioning. This is what the Glazers want. They do not want to spend the extra money to win the title.
You can see EtH going all out to win games. He certainly is not settling. And as long time United supporters neither should we.
We should always be competing for the title.
But it is more than that.
Restoring the stadium, training facilities and investing in the future of the club is equally important.
This season? It is not a stretch to expect us to win the title.
City have their usual tumble. Would we be ready to take advantage?
I too do not expect us to spend huge amounts in January.
But getting FdJ is doable. It is unfinished business.
If you believe we are going to sign 3 players in the January window I don’t know what to say to you.
We will probably sign Tielemans for around £10-12 million and that will be it in January. Its already being reported that glazers and Murtough have vetoed any spending in January and this will be the 'surprise' signing they will get in for TH to keep him happy.
We can finish top 4 and maybe even runners up again, but think Haaland will nail on another title for City.
We can finish top 4 and maybe even runners up again, but think Haaland will nail on another title for City.
See my post above
To me, it looks like the fdj money was spent on casimero, or possibly the extra needed to land Antony.
It should be our ambition to win the prem of course. But it our immediate goal must be consistent CL qualification. That's the kind of platform we need and have been unable to achieve since fergienleft. We shouldnt be talking about winning titles before we are able to demonstrate consistent title challenges. Especially when you look at City, who are years ahead of where we are. We have to do this right, build a machine not a one off wonder.
I think this is why the club should back the Manager in January. There is actually a little window where there is a chance for United to be challenging for the title this year.
It's only a small chance, and we would need to be lucky with injuries, but we need to put ourselves in a place to capitalise if the other teams continue to be inconsistent.
We shouldn't do a Mourinho and pay loads for older players, but if we can get in the right players we could kick on and be more resilient to injuries.
This season is going to be weird because of the world cup, and it's possible that we could make more of a challenge than we probably would have the right to expect because of it.
Of course the wheels could come off before January if we get some injuries, but if we have some luck we need to be ready to exploit it.
I don't think we should be spending a load of money on a chance of capitalising on the small chance of other teams messing up. It's just a bad use of money. We should be building a machine for consistent challenges not one offs
Well we need striker, rb and goalkeeper. We should get two of those at least.
Don’t think we’re consistent enough yet to beat all the teams we should be beating. I’m more confident against the spurs and the Chelsea’s. City will be about 12 points in front come January I think. If by some miracle though we’re not that far of top then we should defo be looking at bringing in a player that can have the Bruno effect on us and make us unbeaten for the rest of the season.
Palace, Bournemouth and Fulham.
There you go. Both Palace and Bournemouth have a similar defensive line to us.
Fulham a bit of an outlier. They really took it to Arsenal and Liverpool. Fair play to them.
I'd go for keeper and striker out of those three.
I think Dalot is improving under ten hag and we need a sweeper keeper to play how ETH wants and also clear we need a striker on par with the other top clubs (Haaland, Lew, Benzema etc). Rashford is doing it for now, but still think we need a poacher to lead the line.
If EtH is really here to transform the club for the long term then I don't think the Glazers should waste money in January. The only exception would be if United are within 6 points of league leaders and an obvious signing (such as CF if United aren't scoring much) would close the gap.
Newcastle have played Liverpool and City.
The teams with proactive keepers are playing the highest lines. I expect we'd be even lower since the first 2 games.
Maybe. Either way, with such a small sample of games it’s hard to make any definitive conclusions about tactics or approach. The fixture list so far will be much more influential.
It's because we don't really put teams under sustained pressure through out the game, not because we play a low block or anything like that.
First: As soon as we went 1-0 up we go into counter attacking mode even against the lesser teams. We almost got burned against Arsenal and Southampton because of this.
Second: We just kick it long as soon as we win possession and other teams are still able to play out from the back under our pressure.
The data definitely doesn't back up our form but I'm hoping the confidence will improve and we actually [;ay well.
He really has transformed our team. Dalot is the best he's ever been and Rashford seems to be back in form. Bruno was inevitable, but it's nice to see him back as well.
With 5 new players in the starting eleven(I'm counting Casemiro already) and Ronaldo on the bench, he's basically changed half the team in a matter of months. All for the better too! Getting Eriksen, Martinez and Malacia for 63 million combined is starting to look like a genius piece of work.
With 5 new players in the starting eleven(I'm counting Casemiro already) and Ronaldo on the bench, he's basically changed half the team in a matter of months. All for the better too! Getting Eriksen, Martinez and Malacia for 63 million combined is starting to look like a genius piece of work.
So what are the mitigating factors here, first two matches a write-off, then we're setting up in a counter attacking fashion against Liverpool, Arsenal too if we're being honest.
I'm not surprised by the lack of a high line. It definitely does put into focus the keeper situation and the problem with all the other centre backs bar Varane+Martinez at the club. But the press intensity is a bit surprising. Would have thought we'd be a lot higher up.
We've not really pressed that intense over long periods or spurts other than the occasional times as a team so both the defensive line and pressing are not really surprises for me.
I really like what ETH has done so far but we've been more organised and effective/practical rather than expansive and high pressing as the 1 or 2 min highlight clips would show. It's not an issue for me as I realise it's still a massive work in progress.
To play a higher line, a team needs:
1. A goalkeeper who can pass - we don't have one.
2. CBs who have pace - we sort of have this with Varane, but neither he nor Martinez have blistering pace.
3. A midfield with tight ball control that can be trusted in not losing possession under pressure - we only have Eriksen with neither McT nor Bruno being possession midfielders (Casemiro perhaps will be).
4. Forwards who can keep the ball up the pitch - Rashford and Ronaldo can't, but I am hopeful a front 3 of Martial, Sancho, Antony will.
Apart from a new goalkeeper, EtH will still have to go for a de Jong type midfielder next season. You simply cannot play a possession based, high-line system with the players we have at the moment unless they dramatically alter their individual attributes.
1. A goalkeeper who can pass - we don't have one.
2. CBs who have pace - we sort of have this with Varane, but neither he nor Martinez have blistering pace.
3. A midfield with tight ball control that can be trusted in not losing possession under pressure - we only have Eriksen with neither McT nor Bruno being possession midfielders (Casemiro perhaps will be).
4. Forwards who can keep the ball up the pitch - Rashford and Ronaldo can't, but I am hopeful a front 3 of Martial, Sancho, Antony will.
Apart from a new goalkeeper, EtH will still have to go for a de Jong type midfielder next season. You simply cannot play a possession based, high-line system with the players we have at the moment unless they dramatically alter their individual attributes.
We also played Maguire in our first two games so that's 4 out of 6 games where you'd expect us to not have had a high line so far. Will be more interesting to view this at the end of the season.
Yes, would have been interesting to see the pattern only for the last 4 games, but considering two of them were against Liverpool and Arsenal, nothing conclusive may emerge from it anyway.
I'm not sure this is a key requirement. Guardiola has had plenty of CBs that aren't that fast.
There are built in risks with a high line that you're accepting when you use it, namely that you're going to get done on the counter sometimes. The idea is to compress the play so that your players are close to the ball so they can press quickly when they lose it. If the opponent has time to look for the through ball and pass it accurately then the press isn't working and it doesn't matter who the CBs are.
Edit: tidied it up a bit.
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You are right. I guess I should have said they have to be at least quicker, both on their feet and in their mind, than somebody like Maguire and Lindelof. That is something Varane and Martinez are already bringing to this team, and they are not really the reason for us not playing a high line.
We almost have a team for that style, but a few key ingredients of GK and the right kind of midfielders and forwards are still missing (Casemiro and Martial could resolve their respective positions this season but a new GK is a must).
Actually United do press a lot considering the circumstances, it's just harder to apply pressure when you drop deeper and leave the usable pitch bigger. If you put a trend line through that you will see United well above it, just like Wolves, Leeds, Chelsea and Liverpool. If United keep that up and just move higher you will naturally see their PPDA stats as well.
The big question is of course if the team is able to move there without creating a disaster.
If anything I'd guess we played a higher line in the first two games but it was a disaster.
Good point. It's a natural reaction to the shock of the first and second games and the teams we were playing. It was also the right thing to do by Ten Hag and Varane/Martinez.
I reckon you'll see us push up as the season progresses.
We were fifth in terms of highest line in defence in 19/20 and 20/21 with the likes of Lindelof/Maguire with De Gea/Henderson in goal.
So I'm not gonna blame this on personnel. Its strictly a tactical move from Ten Hag.
So I'm not gonna blame this on personnel. Its strictly a tactical move from Ten Hag.
What people have to realise is that we are at the beginning of our development.
The first thing we need to make sure is that our defensive line works, thereafter we need a functioning midfield. Once that gets ironed out, we can as a team start to push higher.
Ten Hag is working on these principles in training but we still need to get results, we are playing a hybrid of Ten Hag / Counter attacking at the moment.
The first thing we need to make sure is that our defensive line works, thereafter we need a functioning midfield. Once that gets ironed out, we can as a team start to push higher.
Ten Hag is working on these principles in training but we still need to get results, we are playing a hybrid of Ten Hag / Counter attacking at the moment.
Not sure ETH has been considered the type of coach who's relentless in the press ? I haven't seen enough of Ajax to understand this but when Klopp / Pep arrived this was implemented almost at an instant.
It’s interesting seeing the arguments in here - if De Gea and Maguire are reasons why we have the deepest back line in the PL (Maguire has started 2 games ffs) then how did we have the 5th highest in 20/21 under a manager who apparently only played counter attacking football (despite consistently coming from behind to win - could be the reason…) and De Gea, Lindelof and Maguire as our core back 3? For the record I love ETH and have zero issue with playing however we need to until we adjust and get what he needs - but you have to love the agenda pushing.
Well, it didn't really work, did it? If ETH is the first manager to recognize that you can't play a high line with those guys so be it.
We finished 2nd. Unless you think that wasn’t getting the best out of that squad?
So if Ole got us 2nd and Europa final with a higher line and it "didnt work", Ten Hag surely has to better than a 2nd and Europa finalist to show that his low block can work.
Tbf the underlying numbers seem to agree with the eye test. We have generally been a bit stale all season.
I don't think we were that bad against Brentford as well - 2 of those goals were just freak shows. It happens, but obviously everyone lost their shit because of the optics of it. I don't think we were that great in any of the games after but for once in over a year, we got a break going out way and some positive momentum too and we've kinda just rolled on that.
I'm not too concerned though - get the results for now. It's like what Fernandes said in his interview - confidence is almost everything. You're not going to get a mentally shattered group of players (like the one Rangnick inherited) to immediately adopt new ideas and play out of their comfort zone. Build them up with a few results then introduce new ideas. If Liverpool put a few past us at OT there was no coming back from that, instead that result became a key part of the shift in confidence.
Now, i still believe this group is a bit fragile from last year's thrashings so I hope city don't break them again like they did at Etihad.
I don't think we were that bad against Brentford as well - 2 of those goals were just freak shows. It happens, but obviously everyone lost their shit because of the optics of it. I don't think we were that great in any of the games after but for once in over a year, we got a break going out way and some positive momentum too and we've kinda just rolled on that.
I'm not too concerned though - get the results for now. It's like what Fernandes said in his interview - confidence is almost everything. You're not going to get a mentally shattered group of players (like the one Rangnick inherited) to immediately adopt new ideas and play out of their comfort zone. Build them up with a few results then introduce new ideas. If Liverpool put a few past us at OT there was no coming back from that, instead that result became a key part of the shift in confidence.
Now, i still believe this group is a bit fragile from last year's thrashings so I hope city don't break them again like they did at Etihad.
It was one of the lowest point totals for second place in the last seasons, so while second place sounds nice he wouldn't have achieved that if other clubs would have performed on the usual level.
So yes my benchmark for ETH would be to beat the points achieved, let's see which position that would mean. Demanding success in cup competitions is always tricky, especially in the latter EL stages you might just have to play against an unlucky CL club, so I wouldn't see this as a benchmark.
And it was mentioned how often United got back in games when the went behind, which shows that they weren't that bad in attack as many often say, but so many comebacks are only necessary if the defense isn't great.
Of course, it didn't work. We conceded 44 goals in the league that season and we had a GD of +24. We shipped in more goals than Liverpool's decimated defence.
The outlier is the 9-0 thrashing of Southampton. Every other clean sheet we kept that season was either against sides who would take the initiative and allow us to sit deep or tight affairs against sides we were expected to win. Slow and ponderous in the build-up, passing the ball backwards and sideways waiting for someone to cook up something.
Not even Mou's fanboys celebrated a meaningless second place that much. Just let the man work. He has basically redesigned the defensive line and, soon enough, we'll have a new midfield partnership in front of them. But, yeah, he's obviously seen the light and he's copying the two masterminds that finished second. Jesus Christ...
The outlier is the 9-0 thrashing of Southampton. Every other clean sheet we kept that season was either against sides who would take the initiative and allow us to sit deep or tight affairs against sides we were expected to win. Slow and ponderous in the build-up, passing the ball backwards and sideways waiting for someone to cook up something.
Not even Mou's fanboys celebrated a meaningless second place that much. Just let the man work. He has basically redesigned the defensive line and, soon enough, we'll have a new midfield partnership in front of them. But, yeah, he's obviously seen the light and he's copying the two masterminds that finished second. Jesus Christ...
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