Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Sarni said:
I doubt our players ran less than Brentford due to poor conditioning and besides you don’t build that by continuously running heavily either. I am pretty sure all these players were capable of running and extra 1km yesterday.

Running 14 km today would have been punishment (and a way to impress fans by the new manager) but it wouldn’t make these players more capable of running kilometers in the next game.
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Our players need to run more in games for sure, especially the two wingers on both sides.

But the reason why we lost against Brentford had little to do with not running as much as them. And the manager himself had a lot of blame on himself with the formation and players starting the game.
 
I must admit that I don't like some of his decisions. In fact they could be indicators that he is not ready for this team and challenge. But then again one of his strengths is that he has been able to squeeze production from players and find solutions. He is flexible and very strong schematically. So some of these decisions undoubtedly were set up by poor transfer portal performance and him electing to challenge his players and see who can do what.

That feeling out period is going to last a little while. And it needs to. Start in goal for example. He's going to challenge De Gea and try to elevate his play in the areas he needs him to perform. It may come to pass that he cannot play well enough in the usage the coach requires. But he also might overcome the challenge and emerge on the other side a stronger and more confident goalkeeper. Midfield I have to think someone is brought in. There are clearly no miracles that will alleviate those issues in-house.

Way I look at it this the team was badly in need of someone to elevate the knowledge of the organization. He wasn't hired to turn the team around immediately. He was hired to be the core of the team's business model so allowing him time and beginning the build around his vision is the key here I think.
 
The United said:
Our players need to run more in games for sure, especially the two wingers on both sides.

But the reason why we lost against Brentford had little to do with not running as much as them. And the manager himself had a lot of blame on himself with the formation and players starting the game.
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We definitely were not 4-0 down after 35 minutes because we didn’t run, I agree.
 
dinostar77 said:
Apparently there are people in the utd infrastructure who are quite annoyed and pissed off with how recruitment it going this summer. They did all their work on the targets, but someone somewhere at the club decided to ignore all that and directly go with recommendations from ETH personally. There was an Athletic podcast which mentioned this last week.
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I posted this is another thread but may as well go in here.

Although I have little faith in our scouting and recruitment department, I do think ETH has to be at least slightly responsible for how bad this window has been.

I suspect this narrative that the club had no targets so ETH has been reluctantly forced to identify transfer targets himself is blatantly false. I think ETH saw an opportunity to have more control over transfers than he ever could have dreamed this summer and has took it, to the point where the club's targets and Ralf reccomendations have been largely dismissed so ETH can pick and choose players he's worked with or is familiar with from Eredivisie. Timber/Martinez instead of long term target Pau Torres being an example.

With Ralf here I get the feeling ETH would have less influence which would benefit us, but ETH wouldn't see it that way. His attitude is going to be since he's the one who has to work with the players, he should have most influence on who is signed.

Here are some questionable decisions we've made so far, and some of them surely has to be down to ETH influence.
- Decided to wait it out on De Jong and forego targetting other midfielders earlier in the summer. Only since the season have started have we seemed to realise we need more than just a possible De Jong in midfield and now we're scrambling with the likes of Rabiot/Savic who could have been pursued months ago if the manager had pushed for it.
- Prioritised left back and not right back. If the club was willing to sign a left back at Ten Hag's request when we already had Telles and Shaw (which I'm all for) then I'm sure we similarly could have brought in a right back early in the window. Right back seems to be treated as an afterthought which is criminal given how weak it is. Barely any links to right backs.
- Primarily target ETH ex-players and Eredivisie players which is not a winning strategy and as I said, very likely a strategy ETH has pushed for to some extent.
- Signed a 5ft9 centre back that the club would never have dreamed of signing purely on the manager's say so. It remains to be seen if this works out but I suspect it's an error in judgement as his physical limitations will be shown up.
 
Castia said:
Fair enough

Can’t believe your supporting the players over this though mate. Let Ole down , Rangnick down and it looks like they give zero shits about ETH as well so feck em.
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I am not supporting the players at all. They have been horrible and effort has been poor. Most of them should not be here anymore.

I think it is the case of players being extremely bad and the manager being absolutely horrendous so far as well, whereas most people are trying to blame it on the one or the other. Both are at fault.
 
Sarni said:
I doubt our players ran less than Brentford due to poor conditioning and besides you don’t build that by continuously running heavily either. I am pretty sure all these players were capable of running and extra 1km yesterday.

Running 14 km today would have been punishment (and a way to impress fans by the new manager) but it wouldn’t make these players more capable of running kilometers in the next game.
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If they are capable of it why do we constantly cover less ground than practically every team we play? It's been the case for years. In fact there's a thread titled work rate which was created in 2019 showing a table in which we were second to bottom in km covered. Either the players are incapable or they are lazy. Either way there's no excuse for players who are amongst the best paid in football
 
AndySmith1990 said:
If they are capable of it why do we constantly cover less ground than practically every team we play? It's been the case for years. In fact there's a thread titled work rate which was created in 2019 showing a table in which we were second to bottom in km covered. Either the players are incapable or they are lazy. Either way there's no excuse for players who are amongst the best paid in football
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That is because we have been playing without tactics for the last 3 years. Our buildup consists of 45 seconds of players lazily passing to each other with everyone barely moving around. That alone puts us like 5 km behind the other team.

Our attacking plan yesterday was to try and get the ball to a full back to hoof the ball into the box to try and hit one of the players, or have Ronaldo shoot from literally everywhere. No wonder they don’t run.
 
Dominos said:
I posted this is another thread but may as well go in here.

Although I have little faith in our scouting and recruitment department, I do think ETH has to be at least slightly responsible for how bad this window has been.

I suspect this narrative that the club had no targets so ETH has been reluctantly forced to identify transfer targets himself is blatantly false. I think ETH saw an opportunity to have more control over transfers than he ever could have dreamed this summer and has took it, to the point where the club's targets and Ralf reccomendations have been largely dismissed so ETH can pick and choose players he's worked with or is familiar with from Eredivisie. Timber/Martinez instead of long term target Pau Torres being an example.

With Ralf here I get the feeling ETH would have less influence which would benefit us, but ETH wouldn't see it that way. His attitude is going to be since he's the one who has to work with the players, he should have most influence on who is signed.

Here are some questionable decisions we've made so far, and some of them surely has to be down to ETH influence.
- Decided to wait it out on De Jong and forego targetting other midfielders earlier in the summer. Only since the season have started have we seemed to realise we need more than just a possible De Jong in midfield and now we're scrambling with the likes of Rabiot/Savic who could have been pursued months ago if the manager had pushed for it.
- Prioritised left back and not right back. If the club was willing to sign a left back at Ten Hag's request when we already had Telles and Shaw (which I'm all for) then I'm sure we similarly could have brought in a right back early in the window. Right back seems to be treated as an afterthought which is criminal given how weak it is. Barely any links to right backs.
- Primarily target ETH ex-players and Eredivisie players which is not a winning strategy and as I said, very likely a strategy ETH has pushed for to some extent.
- Signed a 5ft9 centre back that the club would never have dreamed of signing purely on the manager's say so. It remains to be seen if this works out but I suspect it's an error in judgement as his physical limitations will be shown up.
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The thing is none of that is Ten Hag's fault. Murtough's job is to buy players, Joel has the final say on transfers. Ten Hag is the coach, and one who was busy during the summer training his new team for a new league.

Sure, he suggested poor signings but it's not his fault that people listened to him. If Murtough and our scouting team were confident in their own work they wouldn't be relying on what the coach recommends. It's their job remit to choose targets that fit our strategy, but we don't have a strategy either. Putting the blame on Ten Hag for the poor transfer window (which was also done with all of our other managers after Fergie btw) is like blaming the secretary at your local garage for fecking up your MOT when the mechanic was sitting in the back office all day tugging himself off to Sugababes music videos.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
The thing is none of that is Ten Hag's fault. Murtough's job is to buy players, Joel has the final say on transfers. Ten Hag is the coach, and one who was busy during the summer training his new team for a new league.

Sure, he suggested poor signings but it's not his fault that people listened to him. If Murtough and our scouting team were confident in their own work they wouldn't be relying on what the coach recommends. It's their job remit to choose targets that fit our strategy, but we don't have a strategy either. Putting the blame on Ten Hag for the poor transfer window (which was also done with all of our other managers after Fergie btw) is like blaming the secretary at your local garage for fecking up your MOT when the mechanic was sitting in the back office all day tugging himself off to Sugababes music videos.
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Why is it always about picking sides so we can place the blame 100% at their feet? It's possible when things go wrong, multiple people are at fault. The club are at fault. ETH is also at least slightly at fault.

If ETH has dismissed the club's targets and Ralf's recommendations and told the club they need to let him pick his own targets, and the club has gone along with it, the club are stupid. But, you can't say it's not Ten Hag's problem that he convinced the club to pursue a bad transfer strategy. He shouldn't have suggested a bad transfer strategy in the first place, and the club shouldn't have appeased him.

If for example, the club had overruled Ten Hag on the Timber/Martinez signings and chose their own option at CB instead, and it came out in the media that Ten Hag wasn't getting his targets, the club would still be getting slaughtered. So they can't really win from a public perception stand point.
 
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Sarni said:
We definitely were not 4-0 down after 35 minutes because we didn’t run, I agree.
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It seems like you have set your stalls out and whilst I respect that, I question your disdain for what you see as bad coaching.

Do you think for example that Conte would not run his players into the ground after a performance like that against Brentford?

These players earn 100s of thousands of pounds per week. A fine doesn't cut it, they did not follow manager instructions, they did not earn their wage, how do you want them punished?

It may not MAKE them run in the next game, but it will ensure players are aware of consequence. On top of that it is additional fitness.

These sort of methods are used in Germany at Bayern (where Ten Hag learned his trade) in the military where service men who earn a fraction per year of what these players earn in a week.

The manager is the manager, the players need to get on board.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I'm just wondering because didn't Rangnick have the same problem? Players stopped following instructions and did their own thing.

The players could want Scarlett Johansson, completely nude if not for the lathers of strawberry jam smeared on her, to be their manager and I still wouldn't care. They're players, their job shouldn't be to dictate who their boss is!
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Exactly and if the players who are on multi million pounds a year cant follow instruction and learn to adapt then get them out the club. Absolute disgrace the lot of them.
 
Dominos said:
Why is it always about picking sides so we can place the blame 100% at their feet? It's possible when things go wrong, multiple people are at fault. The club are at fault. ETH is also at least slightly at fault.

If ETH has dismissed the club's targets and Ralf's recommendations and told the club they need to let him pick his own targets, and the club has gone along with it, the club are stupid. But, you can't say it's not Ten Hag's problem that he convinced the club to pursue a bad transfer strategy. He shouldn't have suggested a bad transfer strategy in the first place, and the club shouldn't have appeased him.
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I'm not saying that ETH isn't to blame for making shit decisions but it's literally not his job to make these decisions. In any business there's a hierarchy, and Ten Hag shouldn't be making strategic decisions like this. He can suggest, sure, but any DoF is able to look at those suggestions and determine whether or not they fit the overal strategy. Our problem has been that for years we've treated the manager's choices like gospel, and exacerbated the problem by replacing each manager with someone with a completely different playing style. Under Fergie it was fine because he had so much experience in all aspects of the club but it hasn't changed since he retired and we have failed to modernise our structure.

Simply put, the strategists at our club don't seem to know what they're doing. Pep and Klopp, for example, might recommend players to Txiki and Edwards (before he left) but those DoFs are responsible for ensuring that there's continuity and structure to the signings/incomings/outgoings. Any DoF worth their salt would say "no" and they have the authority to tell Ten Hag "no" so there's no excuse for them being pushed by the coach to sign "X" or "Y" player.

Again, Ten Hag has shown in the past that he's not the best at making decisions on signings. Which is why Ajax have Van Der Sar and had Overmars. Who do we have?
 
He can't actually drop underperformers. We didn't replace any of the squad options that left. We kinda put all our eggs in the "form" and "coaching" basket reviving so many.

Plus let's be honest, the kids are most likely also overhyped. Now 2 coaches who deem them not ready for the first team. We're just playing musical chairs blaming the next result on who played or who didn't play when there's no easy winning combination. Even imagine if that was kids getting twonked 4-0 in the first half.
 
The United said:
Our players need to run more in games for sure, especially the two wingers on both sides.

But the reason why we lost against Brentford had little to do with not running as much as them. And the manager himself had a lot of blame on himself with the formation and players starting the game.
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I think the lack of running was a significant factor in the defeat.

Generally, lack of running is a factor in why our players are often out of position. It is a factor in why teams seem to have time on the ball against us. It is a factor in our lack of chance creation as there is not enough movement creating space etc.

You can look at individual goals and say they weren’t directly caused by lack of running but if we don’t run, our chance of conceding increases and our chance of scoring decreases.
 
Sarni said:
We definitely were not 4-0 down after 35 minutes because we didn’t run, I agree.
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True. Games such as Brentford happen, even to Liverpool it happened not too long ago. But most of these games we lose because the players are not giving it their all and that much is obvious. I can't recall how many times I've seen our players just taking a stroll on the pitch, refusing to close down people and generally being very lackadaisical when it comes to the ball. SAF wasn't too long ago for me not to remember how our players used to run like madmen in every match, in every second and minute of it. Even the players that weren't quite good like Cleverley or Buttner or whoever, they gave it their all always. Now we have passengers and that has to change.
 
Sarni said:
I doubt our players ran less than Brentford due to poor conditioning and besides you don’t build that by continuously running heavily either. I am pretty sure all these players were capable of running and extra 1km yesterday.

Running 14 km today would have been punishment (and a way to impress fans by the new manager) but it wouldn’t make these players more capable of running kilometers in the next game.
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it would maybe drill into them though that if they don't put the effort in that they're capable of they'll have to do running? which i'm pretty sure they won't want to do on their day off

either way i'm happy with it. Shows he has demands and if they don't meet them he'll bring them down a peg or 2
 
AdNani said:
it would maybe drill into them though that if they don't put the effort in that they're capable of they'll have to do running? which i'm pretty sure they won't want to do on their day off

either way i'm happy with it. Shows he has demands and if they don't meet them he'll bring them down a peg or 2
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Exactly. He should basically force them to work harder. Anyone who doesn't like it can either work harder in games or feck off.
 
OrcaFat said:
I think the lack of running was a significant factor in the defeat.

Generally, lack of running is a factor in why our players are often out of position. It is a factor in why teams seem to have time on the ball against us. It is a factor in our lack of chance creation as there is not enough movement creating space etc.

You can look at individual goals and say they weren’t directly caused by lack of running but if we don’t run, our chance of conceding increases and our chance of scoring decreases.
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Being able to run will help us greatly in general, I agree.

But almost none of the goals we conceded had anything to do with not running enough. Strangely enough, I thought we were in control for most of the game aside from those moments (crazy individual mistakes) obviously. Now the bigger problem to fix so far this season has been not being able to score.
 
AdNani said:
it would maybe drill into them though that if they don't put the effort in that they're capable of they'll have to do running? which i'm pretty sure they won't want to do on their day off

either way i'm happy with it. Shows he has demands and if they don't meet them he'll bring them down a peg or 2
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Again, very little evidence that the effect it will have on them is making them run more in the next game because they are terrified of having to run during training again. It is beyond pointless. Maybe we should have them do sudoku or another logic based game so they don’t lose concentration during next game, and then make them clean training facilities so they can keep a clean sheet in the next game.

I am happy that you are happy with it, as it was basically the only reason it happened in the first place and why it was leaked to press. For me things like this are extremely worrying, if this is the idea our current coaching has to fix the issues with the team then I am pretty sure they won’t last long.
 
Stinkypete said:
It seems like you have set your stalls out and whilst I respect that, I question your disdain for what you see as bad coaching.

Do you think for example that Conte would not run his players into the ground after a performance like that against Brentford?

These players earn 100s of thousands of pounds per week. A fine doesn't cut it, they did not follow manager instructions, they did not earn their wage, how do you want them punished?

It may not MAKE them run in the next game, but it will ensure players are aware of consequence. On top of that it is additional fitness.

These sort of methods are used in Germany at Bayern (where Ten Hag learned his trade) in the military where service men who earn a fraction per year of what these players earn in a week.

The manager is the manager, the players need to get on board.
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I have no idea what Conte would do but I have seen Conte have success with Juventus, Chelsea, Italy, Inter and now Tottenham.

I have also seen Conte struggle at Chelsea and put in poor European performances at all the clubs he’s been at with very little improvement, he’s far from perfect. There is lots of things I don’t like about Conte but his record is very good and he’s yet to fail at any club.
 
Sviken said:
True. Games such as Brentford happen, even to Liverpool it happened not too long ago. But most of these games we lose because the players are not giving it their all and that much is obvious. I can't recall how many times I've seen our players just taking a stroll on the pitch, refusing to close down people and generally being very lackadaisical when it comes to the ball. SAF wasn't too long ago for me not to remember how our players used to run like madmen in every match, in every second and minute of it. Even the players that weren't quite good like Cleverley or Buttner or whoever, they gave it their all always. Now we have passengers and that has to change.
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I think footballers generally tend to put in more effort when they buy into a concept of what the team is trying to do. We have a few players who wouldn’t put in effort no matter what, and it’s been that way for a while, but we also have a few players who have proven they can work hard and fight (not many). It is very hard to put any effort in at 4-0 down though, and basically all goals we conceded clearly showed they have absolutely zero idea what they were doing and no amount of effort and running would have made it better. Similarly against Brighton. We have played 180 minutes of football without a single decent attacking play which is just as bad as our defending. It’s been Moyes United all over again.
 
Ten Hag is in a situation where he can't win, he's at a club that's simply unmanageable, no one could do it. He's got shit players who aren't up to it, don't listen and don't perform, and then he also can't get the club to bring in the players he wants.

Making them run more and not allowing them days off isn't going to improve the situation, because these players are soft, and all they'll do now is leak to the press, and throw Ten Hag under the bus. We've seen it all before.
 
OrcaFat said:
I think the lack of running was a significant factor in the defeat.

Generally, lack of running is a factor in why our players are often out of position. It is a factor in why teams seem to have time on the ball against us. It is a factor in our lack of chance creation as there is not enough movement creating space etc.

You can look at individual goals and say they weren’t directly caused by lack of running but if we don’t run, our chance of conceding increases and our chance of scoring decreases.
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Or the difference in miles covered could be just down to the fact that we had 66,7% possession and they where chasing the ball.
 
I came here after avoiding this forum like for a good 1 year.
U can change all the managers, all the players and we still will be shit because the problem is not one or the another, problem is mentality.
Basically, in the Fergie days we were buying (except few players) good but not wc players or young promising starts and all of them (again except of very few players) instantly after joining improved because there was winning mentality in the club which lifted those players.
Nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if we put out all stars team full of wc players and we would be just as shit as we are now. Every player that joins us become worse than he was before joining and it only goes down which is the worst thing.
Ten Hag deserves a chance to try change mentality but I doubt he will be successful without full club structure overhaul. I was very excited at the start of last season when Varane and C.Ronaldo joined because I thought they will bring that winning mentality and if they couldn't do it I doubt Ten Hag will succeed.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I'm not saying that ETH isn't to blame for making shit decisions but it's literally not his job to make these decisions. In any business there's a hierarchy, and Ten Hag shouldn't be making strategic decisions like this. He can suggest, sure, but any DoF is able to look at those suggestions and determine whether or not they fit the overal strategy. Our problem has been that for years we've treated the manager's choices like gospel, and exacerbated the problem by replacing each manager with someone with a completely different playing style. Under Fergie it was fine because he had so much experience in all aspects of the club but it hasn't changed since he retired and we have failed to modernise our structure.

Simply put, the strategists at our club don't seem to know what they're doing. Pep and Klopp, for example, might recommend players to Txiki and Edwards (before he left) but those DoFs are responsible for ensuring that there's continuity and structure to the signings/incomings/outgoings. Any DoF worth their salt would say "no" and they have the authority to tell Ten Hag "no" so there's no excuse for them being pushed by the coach to sign "X" or "Y" player.

Again, Ten Hag has shown in the past that he's not the best at making decisions on signings. Which is why Ajax have Van Der Sar and had Overmars. Who do we have?
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The truth is nobody knows who's doing what. For all we know, ETH could have said we would only come to the club if he had final say on we signed.
My theory is that we had a transfer list scouted because he came in but decided to go in another direction.
 
The United said:
Being able to run will help us greatly in general, I agree.

But almost none of the goals we conceded had anything to do with not running enough. Strangely enough, I thought we were in control for most of the game aside from those moments (crazy individual mistakes) obviously. Now the bigger problem to fix so far this season has been not being able to score.
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Yeah we could be running more than anyone but still concede through silly mistakes.

But I do believe running more reduces the likelihood of these mistakes because it reduces the incidence of risky scenarios. If everyone runs more, the man on the ball has better options to make a pass, and passes are less likely to put the receiver under pressure. Players are harder to mark if they run about more. It has to be intelligent running, yes.

The big problem you mentioned- that of us not scoring enough, is also affected by lack of running, lack of movement, resulting in limited passing options. We don’t move the opposition around enough.

This is why it is not acceptable to run less than the opponents. There is never a time when you don’t need to run. Even if you are bossing possession, it’s hard to make it count if you don’t run.

The reasons we don’t do it are laziness and lack of game intelligence.

Confidence is completely lacking but the attitude is appalling as well. If Brentford can score four times in 30 minutes so can we and yet nobody played as though they were interested in making that happen.

Getting it through to them that they have to run more is absolutely critical. It was almost the first thing Ole said when he came in but he couldn’t get them to sustain it. (There’s a whole other debate there which we’ve all moved on from.) It has been said for as long as I can remember football existing, that you have to outwork the opponents.

So it’s not really relevant to say this or that goal had nothing to do with running. The lack of running is a major root cause of losing matches. Even a goal that slips through the goalie’s hands could probably have been stopped earlier by closing down better.
 
Leftback99 said:
Is there any proof that longer distance ran = better results?
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Pretty sure distance ran bleeds into the pressing stats which all top teams do to a high level these days.
Lack of running equates to lack of pressing
 
If we are not going to give him time, at least 2 more transfer windows then we might as well shut down the club. I know fans are frustrated, stressed, angry and even depressed so it's understandable for people to lose hope and be negative. Ten Hag has all the right ideas a great coach has to succeed and needs to be backed and supported by fans simply because it's going to take TIME.

My phone broke the day of the Brentford defeat and I am glad it did because I couldn't be online or on the CAF to witness the chaos. It helped me mentally as a human because we are all going through something in our personal life that is making us stressed, anxious and depressed. To be so consumed about something we can not control like soccer, definitely contributes to our mental health and I believe makes it worse.

We are all disappointed but one thing I will say is take a break, go out with loved ones, go eat, go walk your dog, go take a drive, doddle etc JUST GO DO SOMETHING other than thinking Manchester United always.
 
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