Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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I don't know how to respond to your posts, buddy.

Are you still in character or is it genuine? :lol:

Anyway, Liverpool have lost their iconic manager at the end the last season and have a new guy in-charge. Spurs have been a bit better but the 'Aggites don't miss an opportunity to go into the Ange thread and mock him even if they draw a game, so he must be shite. And there is always a different team pulling above their weight every season - Villa last season, Brighton the season before last, etc. etc.

It’s genuine. League is much stronger now than it was in 22-23 when many of top teams with vast resources were in disarray for different reasons.
 
It's hard to know when you are joking here, but I'll respond anyway.

Our squad was much better than 8th place last year, so that shouldn't be the argument for this season either, we are missing in some position but overall we have more than capable squad of reaching top4, especially if we sign one or two more players.

We have better squad than Liverpool, Villa, Newcastle at least, and they all have finished above us last year.

It was an underwhelming season for sure but we aren’t really at the level where I would confidently say we are better than all of those teams.
 
The squad is also very weak thanks to decisions of the manager in charge.
Won’t disagree with that but it has to be said that the club at the same time gave him all the power but also failed to deliver his top targets year after year, like FDJ. Seems we might once again struggle with that and not deliver de Ligt this year either (though I certainly hope we do).

Probably should not have relied on him at all in the first place though as recreating his Ajax team is not a viable strategy.
 
This myth that we always play incredible football when Martinez and Shaw are fit is amazing. Didn’t we lose 7-0 to Liverpool with both of them playing? We were also absolutely dreadful to Wolves at home with both of them playing in the first game of the season. So injuries or not, football has to get substantially better and we need to score way more goals.
Yes you’re right. If we do well this season maybe it’s Ruud and Hakes doing. His style of play needs improving massively
 
Won’t disagree with that but it has to be said that the club at the same time gave him all the power but also failed to deliver his top targets year after year, like FDJ. Seems we might once again struggle with that and not deliver de Ligt this year either (though I certainly hope we do).

Probably should not have relied on him at all in the first place though as recreating his Ajax team is not a viable strategy.
FDJ stated over and over he didn’t want to leave Barca so TH and Murtough shouldn’t have wasted a whole window chasing him .
 
This thread just reminds me of Shaggy
Bought Antony for 86 mill (It wasn't ETH)
Finished 8th in the league (It wasn't ETH)
Have no style of play (It wasn't ETH)
Continually conceding 20 shots with no midfield (It wasn't ETH)
Can't get us playing good football (It wasn't Ten Haag)

There's a flipside to this where any good that he's done gets totally discredited. As is usually the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
 
Won’t disagree with that but it has to be said that the club at the same time gave him all the power but also failed to deliver his top targets year after year, like FDJ. Seems we might once again struggle with that and not deliver de Ligt this year either (though I certainly hope we do).
The player he claimed in an interview was being pushed by the club and not himself?
 
Irrelevant to the point being made.

The point is if I knew that we were going to be drastically light up front then I'm not having that Ten Hag was blindsighted in some way.

You claim you knew more than him and that's a issue, everyone could see Utd would be light up top with only one fit striker. It was hardly some genius insight.

Do you not think ETH knew that was going to be the case and if a deal could have been done for a player it would have been?
 
This myth that we always play incredible football when Martinez and Shaw are fit is amazing. Didn’t we lose 7-0 to Liverpool with both of them playing? We were also absolutely dreadful to Wolves at home with both of them playing in the first game of the season. So injuries or not, football has to get substantially better and we need to score way more goals.
You've singled out a handful of matches and completely ignored about 3/4 of the 22/23 season just to make a point.
 
You claim you knew more than him and that's a issue, everyone could see Utd would be light up top with only one fit striker. It was hardly some genius insight.

Do you not think ETH knew that was going to be the case and if a deal could have been done for a player it would have been?

I don't really care whether he knew or not. Either way it was incompetent to go into the season that light.

Maybe he shouldn't have spent so much money on Mount before addressing priority areas.
 
Expectation for the third season should be predicated on results. United haven't performed well consistently under ETH's tenure barring a three month period from the new year to the Barcelona home / away fixtures. Soon as the carabao cup was accomplished the team dropped off a cliff failing to recover. United are not going to be the team that plays good football under the current regime, we've seen managers implement such instances in far less time with considerably less resources.

For a largely inconsistent team, pre season will also be a telling factor for how the team perform over the opening 10 games. The only way I can see top four happening is if INEOS over-deliver in the market and amass a team that is of sufficient quality to mask the managers tactical insufficiencies.

The narrative for last season hasn't really changed it was poor performance metrics that was even more detrimental than the negative score lines. It's not something that's going to vanish away, it will take much accountability from the manager to self-reflect and make adjustments in his preparations.
 
I don't really care whether he knew or not. Either way it was incompetent to go into the season that light.

Maybe he shouldn't have spent so much money on Mount before addressing priority areas.

It's hardly straight up incompetence. It's a squad building process which sometimes has to be done incrementally.

Obviously choices had to be made about which areas to prioritise. Midfield needed reinforcements so he brought in Mount and Amrabat. Mainoo was earmarked to play, but he was injured. Needed a new GK so he brought in Onana. Defensively he was left with bringing Evans in on a free and Reguilon in on loan.

I can only assume ETH / the club chose not to sign another striker because they thought Martial could have some use (he did play 19 games last season) and there was no one who could be brought in with the funds available.

Now he's added Zirkzee and Yoro, 2 or 3 more players in a few more out and the squad will look a bit better.
 
"Inexcusable" :lol:

Carry yourself on.

There's a lot to bash ETH with, but the FA Cup final was a very well set up and organized performance. It just clearly shows your agenda that you find problems even with that game.

Alleged "best team in the world" Real Madrid were dominated by City for 210 minutes, probably even more, than we were in that final.

No team "outplayed" City in the last few years, other than maybe Arsenal last season and Klopp a few times. Oh and I forgot a one-off game vs Aston Villa last autumn. But other than a few games, every loss they suffered still saw them dominate their opponent.
 
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There's a lot to bash ETH with, but the FA Cup final was a very well set up and organized performance. It just clearly shows your agenda that you find problems even with that game.

Alleged "best team in the world" Real Madrid were dominated by City for 210 minutes, probably even more, than we were in that final.

No team "outplayed" City in the last few years, other than maybe Arsenal last season and Klopp a few times. Oh and I forgot a one-off game vs Aston Villa last autumn. But other than a few games, every loss they suffered still saw them dominate their opponent.

My agenda? My agenda is that I want Utd to do well. I have doubts about Ten Hag being the man to do that after his poor performance last season.

I think the ones with the agenda are the ones who wish to pretend that last season was the cup final and everything else is forgotten. I just like to remind those people that even that required a fluke goal.
 
You've singled out a handful of matches and completely ignored about 3/4 of the 22/23 season just to make a point.
There were other matches, especially in the latter half of that season where both of them played but we were still dreadful. Is 1/4th of a season not sufficient to make the point valid? Either way, we did not score an amazing number of goals even in 2022/23, so I’m not sure where this confidence that we’ll be suddenly amazing going forward if those two are fit comes from.

It’s also funny that I’m criticized for highlighting a few one-off games when Ten Hag was primarily not sacked for the FA Cup final win, and we’re told we can just ignore the league position last season because injuries justify it.
 
the manager is good enough but he's too stubborn....he's not adapting the system to suit the personnel, that's his biggest issue
 
Please talk about Erik ten Hag, not each other. I just warned a few posters and the beatings will continue until morale improves.
 
My agenda? My agenda is that I want Utd to do well. I have doubts about Ten Hag being the man to do that after his poor performance last season.

I think the ones with the agenda are the ones who wish to pretend that last season was the cup final and everything else is forgotten. I just like to remind those people that even that required a fluke goal.

I'm not one of those posters. I was firmly ETH in throughout last season but towards the last few months became indifferent towards his future and accepted it might be time to go with someone else, and was very excited by the prospect of McKenna and even Tuchel.

However, it's important to be able to se both the good and bad things. There are many of both. The discussion will go nowhere if the anti-ETH brigade just shuts down anyone trying to discuss the positives. And when valid points are brought up as to how ETH could still make it work, it usually just gets shut down as well without any real counter arguments.
 
It's a clean slate for me. What's done is done and here we are now. What's important is that we set the bar reasonably but realistically high and that the club meets that bar.

For me this season it's top four in the PL and long runs in all cup competitions. I'll take attractive play on top of that but if we have to grind to get results, then we grind.
 
It's a clean slate for me. What's done is done and here we are now. What's important is that we set the bar reasonably but realistically high and that the club meets that bar.

For me this season it's top four in the PL and long runs in all cup competitions. I'll take attractive play on top of that but if we have to grind to get results, then we grind.

Personally don't see how scraping some lucky results to get top 4 is "progress" in a managers third season at all. At this point "style" and principles should be second nature to much of the squad, and we've spend 500m+ at this point. If we are still getting pinned in and battered by any decent side then that's a failure.
 
It's a clean slate for me. What's done is done and here we are now. What's important is that we set the bar reasonably but realistically high and that the club meets that bar.

For me this season it's top four in the PL and long runs in all cup competitions. I'll take attractive play on top of that but if we have to grind to get results, then we grind.
This is the most objectively balanced approach to take on this. INEOs have drawn a line in sand , they are fully backing him in a way most United managers were let down.

We are going into a season after a very positive end, no major dramas on the horizon, some managed away, some managed publicity better. No nonsense high profile signing that looks like it was made cause the numpties negotiating are out of their depth. Hopefully injuries behind us. Strong looking back room staff and professional competent people hired in all areas to make things work.

Regardless of this season; the longer term future feels very good regardless of ETH. I don’t see a bad season under him as big a setback as it might of been under the previous clowns running the circus and I feel with such a young looking squad it won’t matter much if we need to replace him.

So new slate for club , for manager , for players and promise of something great in the longer term for the fans. I think a similar first half of season to last year and it won’t be acceptable but I don’t anticipate it. Feel there’s a lot of positive momentum at the club and I’d expect results closer to season one under ETH but more fluid football.
 
Personally don't see how scraping some lucky results to get top 4 is "progress" in a managers third season at all. At this point "style" and principles should be second nature to much of the squad, and we've spend 500m+ at this point. If we are still getting pinned in and battered by any decent side then that's a failure.

Yep, if we don't play much, much better this season we should be getting rid of him.
 
There's a flipside to this where any good that he's done gets totally discredited. As is usually the case, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I think people criticise what they can see, and make assumptions based on that about what they can’t see.

It’s a weird fact of modern life that some feel massively qualified to make assertions about things they can’t possibly know.

The middle ground seems to have disappeared!
 
I'm not one of those posters. I was firmly ETH in throughout last season but towards the last few months became indifferent towards his future and accepted it might be time to go with someone else, and was very excited by the prospect of McKenna and even Tuchel.

However, it's important to be able to se both the good and bad things. There are many of both. The discussion will go nowhere if the anti-ETH brigade just shuts down anyone trying to discuss the positives. And when valid points are brought up as to how ETH could still make it work, it usually just gets shut down as well without any real counter arguments.

I don't think you come across as one.

I love that we won the FA Cup. My view is purely practical (that sounds like a statement that it is right and others are wrong because they are impractical. I just mean my method of thinking about it, I can still be incorrect).

I believe we were horrendous last season for a number of reasons. I think the biggest reason was consistent kamikaze tactics not injuries. Injuries would have effected us anyway but we could have been much better and I think a lot of managers in the league would have gotten us there.

And yes whilst winning the FA Cup was great I do think it was lucky. I say that not to have a dig at Ten Hag who I find to be a very professional man, someone I badly wanted here and find no joy in seeing him do badly. I say it to point out how ludicrous it is to try and use that to paper over the fact that the way he seems to set up the team is unsustainable and "2 trophies mate" is not a sufficient response.

The semi final was embarrassing and yes I think we were lucky in a game where we had 26% of possession 10 shots to 19. We were lucky that they through a goal in their own net in a way they hadn't done all season. We did set up well defensively and court them on the counter but we all moaned about Ole doing that when he beat them like 4 times on the bounce.

We are 2 years down the line with a worse style of play than ever, further away from competing for the league than ever, still not pressing properly, still struggling to beat the press, struggling more than ever to create chances and worse control of matches, after half a billion spent. It's just unacceptable and he requires drastic improvement in his own performance immediately.
 
"Survival of the fittest" that quote from him says it all, he knows everyone has to carry their weight or you're on the chopping block.

This time it won't be only the manager, Players would be held accountable over the course of each season.
 
Personally don't see how scraping some lucky results to get top 4 is "progress" in a managers third season at all. At this point "style" and principles should be second nature to much of the squad, and we've spend 500m+ at this point. If we are still getting pinned in and battered by any decent side then that's a failure.

If we end up relying on a string of dodgy penalties to scrape results that land us no better than fourth place, I will agree that that would not be progress. A good team will have to win some games in style and some games by grinding it out.

The last few years of the Ferguson era were marked by a lot of grinding, ugly wins, but we celebrated the trophies nonetheless.

As we look at the squad right now, we just don’t yet have the players capable of a long and glorious run of wins in the PL. let’s ask for marginally improved play, starting with slightly better shot stopping, continuing with slightly better awareness on marking, slightly better progression through the lines, and at least as I see it, substantially better finishing. Do all that and I’m confident we can land in the top three and go deep in all cup competitions.

But we need to cut ETH some slack in getting his players to pull the themselves together and play like a team. Rashford in particular needs to look for the pass first, then for himself if the pass is not on.
 
It's a clean slate for me. What's done is done and here we are now. What's important is that we set the bar reasonably but realistically high and that the club meets that bar.

For me this season it's top four in the PL and long runs in all cup competitions. I'll take attractive play on top of that but if we have to grind to get results, then we grind.
Sensible. If we think the structure was poor before (which I’m sure everyone agrees on), it makes sense to assess the manager post takeover. We’ve had plenty of highly rated managers fail since Ferguson left. Personally, I will be assessing performance differently from now on. No more excuses.
 
It's a clean slate for me. What's done is done and here we are now. What's important is that we set the bar reasonably but realistically high and that the club meets that bar.

For me this season it's top four in the PL and long runs in all cup competitions. I'll take attractive play on top of that but if we have to grind to get results, then we grind.
The thing about style of play is that it matters far more than grinding out results, if the grind only gets you top 4. The grind is ONLY worth it if you win the PL or CL, otherwise you are failing as a manager, harming your actual development in favor of lesser achievements.

Focusing on us actually playing good football is how we build into actually being a top team. You don't go from grinding results to suddenly clicking. You need to grow and play better and better football and the results will eventually catch up to that style too. Only then can we continue to grow and see something worth keeping and a path to the top.
 
I don't think you come across as one.

I love that we won the FA Cup. My view is purely practical (that sounds like a statement that it is right and others are wrong because they are impractical. I just mean my method of thinking about it, I can still be incorrect).

I believe we were horrendous last season for a number of reasons. I think the biggest reason was consistent kamikaze tactics not injuries. Injuries would have effected us anyway but we could have been much better and I think a lot of managers in the league would have gotten us there.

And yes whilst winning the FA Cup was great I do think it was lucky. I say that not to have a dig at Ten Hag who I find to be a very professional man, someone I badly wanted here and find no joy in seeing him do badly. I say it to point out how ludicrous it is to try and use that to paper over the fact that the way he seems to set up the team is unsustainable and "2 trophies mate" is not a sufficient response.

The semi final was embarrassing and yes I think we were lucky in a game where we had 26% of possession 10 shots to 19. We were lucky that they through a goal in their own net in a way they hadn't done all season. We did set up well defensively and court them on the counter but we all moaned about Ole doing that when he beat them like 4 times on the bounce.

We are 2 years down the line with a worse style of play than ever, further away from competing for the league than ever, still not pressing properly, still struggling to beat the press, struggling more than ever to create chances and worse control of matches, after half a billion spent. It's just unacceptable and he requires drastic improvement in his own performance immediately.

I agree with you in that the biggest reason for last season's awful results and performances was the tactics, not the injuries. ETH insisted with something that wasn't going to work with the current squad. At the same time, though, I think the centre halves and the defensive midfielder are crucial to making his system work, and we didn't really have the players available for like 90% of the season who could play those positions to the required standard. Martínez was out for most of the season. Maguire was out for several months. You can argue whether Casemiro is suited to play DM in this system, I personally don't think so, but he was out for several months as well, anyways. Amrabat isn't a lone DM, neither is McTominay IMO, and he was preferred to take up advanced positions anyways, and Mainoo isn't a #6 either.

I think it was Evans who also mentioned that all the intense training and physical work massively benefitted him, and I presume most of the squad as well. And ETH's system requires very high physical levels and athleticism that I think the squad has been lacking for years. Even Rangnick mentioned this when he was interim manager.

Regarding the FA Cup final, I still believe it was a very good and organized performance. We ceded control, yes, but as I pointed out in one of my previous posts, basically everyone does that against City. They're the best team in the world, and have been for a number of years now. However, if you look at the performance itself, we basically shut them out, and worked out some good chances for ourselves. We beat them on xG as well, so they couldn't really do all that much with all that possession. We didn't let them create that many chances and we created the better ones as well. Their one goal came from a shot Onana should've saved anyway. I think a 2-1 result is a fair reflection of how both teams played on that day.

However, I was never someone who advocated keeping him just because of a one-off game. First of all, like I said, I think the system he so stubbornly sacrificed last season for can still work, with new defenders, new midfielders, and by avoiding another injury crisis. It can also have some so far unseen benefits, like improving our physical flooring, due to the intense training levels ETH presumably deployed because of the requirements of this system.

Also, he has shown that he can revert back to his first season's tactics, which still work, suit the squad more, and we still have our base level of 2022/23 as a solid top 4 team, because I believe after the 4-0 loss to Palace, ETH decided to grind out the last few games for better results, with a more pragmatic approach that suits the squad more and was similar to what we played in his first season after the first two losses vs Brighton and Brentford. Our squad is also stronger now than it was 24 months ago, and we will sign at least 2 more players IMO, but probably more.

So I agree, the 2 trophies argument isn't a sufficient one, but that was never my reasoning.

One thing I think is important to mention is that we don't even know what the tactical plan for next season is. I would like to wait for the first few competitive matches to be played out before becoming fixated on this topic again. We might keep trying with last season's kamikaze approach, we might revert back for now, to what used to mostly work under Ole and ETH's first season, or we might start over with another, vastly different approach. The people Ineos have hired to decide both this and the manager's future, are very smart and competent footballing people, so there's enough reason to be relaxed about this for now IMO.
 
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He won't have a cup run early on in the season to save him if we start badly. This is his 3rd season, there's no bedding in time or acclimatizing, the team needs to start well and be consistent enough. We need to show a clear improvement off the bat, no excuses. Clear and consistent style of play and consistent performances to boot.
 
Starting the season poorly is one thing, if that happens with Utd playing the same idiotic midfield shape that wrecked last season then he will be a dead man walking.

I like the profile the signings Utd have been making, young, hungry, something to prove, just give them a chance by choosing a sensible shape.
 
I agree with you in that the biggest reason for last season's awful results and performances was the tactics, not the injuries. ETH insisted with something that wasn't going to work with the current squad. At the same time, though, I think the centre halves and the defensive midfielder are crucial to making his system work, and we didn't really have the players available for like 90% of the season who could play those positions to the required standard. Martínez was out for most of the season. Maguire was out for several months. You can argue whether Casemiro is suited to play DM in this system, I personally don't think so, but he was out for several months as well, anyways. Amrabat isn't a lone DM, neither is McTominay IMO, and he was preferred to take up advanced positions anyways, and Mainoo isn't a #6 either.

I think it was Evans who also mentioned that all the intense training and physical work massively benefitted him, and I presume most of the squad as well. And ETH's system requires very high physical levels and athleticism that I think the squad has been lacking for years. Even Rangnick mentioned this when he was interim manager.

Regarding the FA Cup final, I still believe it was a very good and organized performance. We ceded control, yes, but as I pointed out in one of my previous posts, basically everyone does that against City. They're the best team in the world, and have been for a number of years now. However, if you look at the performance itself, we basically shut them out, and worked out some good chances for ourselves. We beat them on xG as well, so they couldn't really do all that much with all that possession. We didn't let them create that many chances and we created the better ones as well. Their one goal came from a shot Onana should've saved anyway. I think a 2-1 result is a fair reflection of how both teams played on that day.

However, I was never someone who advocated keeping him just because of a one-off game. First of all, like I said, I think the system he so stubbornly sacrificed last season for can still work, with new defenders, new midfielders, and by avoiding another injury crisis. It can also have some so far unseen benefits, like improving our physical flooring, due to the intense training levels ETH presumably deployed because of the requirements of this system.

Also, he has shown that he can revert back to his first season's tactics, which still work, suit the squad more, and we still have our base level of 2022/23 as a solid top 4 team, because I believe after the 4-0 loss to Palace, ETH decided to grind out the last few games for better results, with a more pragmatic approach that suits the squad more and was similar to what we played in his first season after the first two losses vs Brighton and Brentford. Our squad is also stronger now than it was 24 months ago, and we will sign at least 2 more players IMO, but probably more.

So I agree, the 2 trophies argument isn't a sufficient one, but that was never my reasoning.

One thing I think is important to mention is that we don't even know what the tactical plan for next season is. I would like to wait for the first few competitive matches to be played out before becoming fixated on this topic again. We might keep trying with last season's kamikaze approach, we might revert back for now, to what used to mostly work under Ole and ETH's first season, or we might start over with another, vastly different approach. The people Ineos have hired to decide both this and the manager's future, are very smart and competent footballing people, so there's enough reason to be relaxed about this for now IMO.
Nice post. I‘m not sure what tactics we will see this season; it is possible Ten Hag and his new staff will cook up something different. I‘m fine with the current tactics/strategy if we improve the execution and have more consistency.
 
Nice post. I‘m not sure what tactics we will see this season; it is possible Ten Hag and his new staff will cook up something different. I‘m fine with the current tactics/strategy if we improve the execution and have more consistency.

We are going to be signing another centre half on top of Yoro, as well as a defensive midfielder. These 3 arrivals should improve us even if we are sticking with last season's approach. Collyer might be able to make an impact too at DM. Him and Mainoo in a double-pivot could work IMO.
 
The thing about style of play is that it matters far more than grinding out results, if the grind only gets you top 4. The grind is ONLY worth it if you win the PL or CL, otherwise you are failing as a manager, harming your actual development in favor of lesser achievements.

Focusing on us actually playing good football is how we build into actually being a top team. You don't go from grinding results to suddenly clicking. You need to grow and play better and better football and the results will eventually catch up to that style too. Only then can we continue to grow and see something worth keeping and a path to the top.
If we languish around 7th or 8th place playing stylish but futile football ETH gets the sack. He doesn’t have the goodwill that Ferguson had in his last few seasons when we were grinding out results.

We have to learn how to win before we learn to win with style, but obviously every one of us here are desperate for both. Learning to how to win means substantial improvement in defending and it appears management agrees.
 
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