Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Any chance he’s seen the rumours about Southgate and is putting a message out there to Ineos about why he shouldn’t be a United manager?
 
captaincantona said:
Think ETH is overplaying his hand. Have INEOS actually made a statement on this whole debacle? They are negotiating with him to stay on because on balance - there has been some groundwork done and to walk away now would mean a full reboot - but it’s not unthinkable that INESO could be pissed about some of those comments and tell him to do one -

Jesus, on the basis of the fact that they bought the right to manage the football side of the club for hunderds of millions they are completely entitled to consider if they want their own manager - ETH knows he was not their choice.

all in all I think Ten Hag is putting his ego before the team. These comments are not helpful to anyone.

- his Transfers were poor
- his style of play did not evolve to deal with clear issues
- his results were poor and we have been embarrassed beyond acceptability on a number of occasions
- his medical staff and him have made poor decisions
- there is no indication that he is loved by the dressing room and therefore carries significant favour with key members of the squad

So his bargaining chips are limited.
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Devils advocate.

his Transfers were poor - Agreed but an organisation size of United allowed the manager to scout, negotiate transfer fees and wages is more to do how bad the club is.
- his style of play did not evolve to deal with clear issues - Agreed
- his results were poor and we have been embarrassed beyond acceptability on a number of occasions - Agreed
- his medical staff and him have made poor decisions - Did he bring his personal medical staff paid by him?
- there is no indication that he is loved by the dressing room and therefore carries significant favour with key members of the squad - There is no indication that they dont like him. In fact the way they played for him in matches this season including the final suggests they are behind him.
 
Dan_F said:
Any chance he’s seen the rumours about Southgate and is putting a message out there to Ineos about why he shouldn’t be a United manager?
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Does he need to? Ineos just need to watch the drizzling shit on display every time England take to the field.
 
AjaxCunian said:
It is a fact, it is not made up "achievement".
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It's a weak achievement because the main criteria to assess cup performance, by far, is "which stage did you exit in." An R16 exit is not good.

You can view it as a positive if you want but the general perception at the time was not positive. See here.
 
I think the Laurie Whitwell article in the Athletic, whilst playing well to the narrative that the players are the problem, is really worrying.

I've seen managers in various jobs walk in and alienate staff and have to fight constant battles to get people onside and I can't say I've ever seen departments that were particularly unmanageable before that; it has, in my experience, almost always been a failure of management.

In the media ten Hag comes across as prickly, uncharismatic and robotic, and the glimpses we get behind the scene seem to support that picture. Being a manager is as much about getting players on board as it is about having a fantastic tactical plan, and whilst I am sure there are bad eggs in the squad that need to go, it's yet more reports of senior players unconvinced by his methods and by him as a manager.

I think the problem with this INEOS decision is that there is only one possible way that ten Hag can be a success here, and that's by an almost complete cull of the remaining senior players who either have, according to Whitwell, undermined him or just don't fit. Casemiro will have to follow Varane, Rashford will have to go and Maguire too.

The obvious question is do INEOS trust a man they clearly were quite willing to get rid of if they could find a better option to carry out a ruthless cull and retool the squad with younger and more pliable players who won't push back? Because, even if you do that, you're left with the distinct possibility that the reason Varane and Casemiro were running around telling people that ten Hag's tactics don't work is because they've won it all and know that ten Hag's tactics don't work.

I think this summer is going to be instructive, and I can't see us emerging well from it.
 
Insanity said:
People usually don't want to give up power. And why would he when he thinks that INEOS and people they have hired are neophytes. He is not wrong either: INEOS don't have a stellar record running football clubs, this would be Berrada's first CEO job, Wilcox's previous jobs have been academy related and Ashworth, the most experienced of the lot, is engaged in a battle with the Saudis. It's not a surprise that he trusts himself and his agency more than these guys.
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Well, if that's how he's thinking, he's extraordinarily shortsighted. Because the power lies with INEOS, whether he trusts them or not. They can fire him any time they want. He won't dictate the club strategy (and thank heavens for that). He can just decide if he wants to be a part of it or if he wants to be an obstacle. The latter choice rarely ends well. Including for the club.
 
captaincantona said:
Think ETH is overplaying his hand. Have INEOS actually made a statement on this whole debacle? They are negotiating with him to stay on because on balance - there has been some groundwork done and to walk away now would mean a full reboot - but it’s not unthinkable that INESO could be pissed about some of those comments and tell him to do one -

Jesus, on the basis of the fact that they bought the right to manage the football side of the club for hunderds of millions they are completely entitled to consider if they want their own manager - ETH knows he was not their choice.

all in all I think Ten Hag is putting his ego before the team. These comments are not helpful to anyone.

- his Transfers were poor
- his style of play did not evolve to deal with clear issues
- his results were poor and we have been embarrassed beyond acceptability on a number of occasions
- his medical staff and him have made poor decisions
- there is no indication that he is loved by the dressing room and therefore carries significant favour with key members of the squad

So his bargaining chips are limited.
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The mitigations

-He shouldn't have to propose transfer targets
-yes he has tried but squad is not adequate to play the way he / the club wanted prior to Ineos
- most of our defence has been injured and we've had other players missing, as well as a lot of individual errors in marginal moments cost us points
- he isn't a doctor and many managers have a risky approach to marginal issues
- the players have done this to every manager post Sir Alex
- he's won two trophies
 
justsomebloke said:
Well, if that's how he's thinking, he's extraordinarily shortsighted. Because the power lies with INEOS, whether he trusts them or not. They can fire him any time they want. He won't dictate the club strategy (and thank heavens for that). He can just decide if he wants to be a part of it or if he wants to be an obstacle. The latter choice rarely ends well. Including for the club.
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Yes they can fire him. But as long as they don't do that he has the amount of power in his contract that he likes (as long as he doesn't agree to a new one). And INEOS backed themselves in a corner here. So EtH can manage United the way he wants, or he can be sacked. But he doesn't need to agree to work in a way he doesn't like. Of course it's a bit of "my way or the high way" situation but I am sure he is aware of that. Why should he work in a way he doesn't like with guys he doesn't think are competent? He surely wouldn't think it's bad for the club when he can work his way, as he (rightfully) backs himself to be the right guy.

I don't agree with him that he is the right guy to lead United, but that self confidence is something every top manager has to have, so I don't criticise him for that.
 
Sarni said:
Why would he surrender his power that is currently included in his contract that only runs out next year? He wants to build his own team, he doesn’t want owners that he doesn’t seem to even have a huge degree of belief in to pick players for him.
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It's not a question of whether it's Jim Ratcliffe or Erik ten Hag deciding on transfers. They've been very clear about getting a new structure in place (Berrada, Ashworth, Wilcox etc) to handle football decisions differently - away from the dysfunctional mess we've had to put up with and more along the lines of City, Liverpool and Arsenal, which is based on a more coherent and long-term decision-making anchored in a clear and shared vision of what kind of team we are and what sort of football we play, which again requires a high level of mutual trust between the key decision makers. As evidenced by Chelsea and Brighton, that model does not work unless the manager is on board with it. It is also incompatible with a managerial contract-anchored veto for transfer decisions. If EtH is choosing to fight that model rather than embrace it, I don't see how he can survive. And if he does, that is only by obstructing the working model the rest of management wants to have. No club will be successful with such a state of affairs.
 
stefan92 said:
Yes they can fire him. But as long as they don't do that he has the amount of power in his contract that he likes (as long as he doesn't agree to a new one). And INEOS backed themselves in a corner here. So EtH can manage United the way he wants, or he can be sacked. But he doesn't need to agree to work in a way he doesn't like. Of course it's a bit of "my way or the high way" situation but I am sure he is aware of that. Why should he work in a way he doesn't like with guys he doesn't think are competent? He surely wouldn't think it's bad for the club when he can work his way, as he (rightfully) backs himself to be the right guy.

I don't agree with him that he is the right guy to lead United, but that self confidence is something every top manager has to have, so I don't criticise him for that.
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A club at odds with itself doesn't succeed. It's as simple as that. Either he's on board, or he's a problem.

That doesn't look like self-confidence to me, but rather the opposite. If he's confident, why does he think he can't live without a formal veto over transfer decisions? Pep Guardiola doesn't think he needs that, nor did Jürgen Klopp. Who both strike me as fairly confident types. They both also seem to understand the benefits of a system where they are involved in rather than call the shots on transfers.
 
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Telsim said:
He is finally entering the Walter White act proper.
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I'll judge it on matchweek 1 and see how he reacts to the inevitable crazy VAR call against us. I want him to finally call it out properly rather than accept it with grace.
 
romufc said:
Devils advocate.

his Transfers were poor - Agreed but an organisation size of United allowed the manager to scout, negotiate transfer fees and wages is more to do how bad the club is.
- his style of play did not evolve to deal with clear issues - Agreed
- his results were poor and we have been embarrassed beyond acceptability on a number of occasions - Agreed
- his medical staff and him have made poor decisions - Did he bring his personal medical staff paid by him?
- there is no indication that he is loved by the dressing room and therefore carries significant favour with key members of the squad - There is no indication that they dont like him. In fact the way they played for him in matches this season including the final suggests they are behind him.
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Medical staff in the sense that there is clearly a disconnect between the gaffer and the med staff with so many injuries and it is the manager’s responsibility to sort that and ensure that ultimately he makes the right decisions on fitness. He clearly clearly hasn’t - it’s not just bad luck. Shaw has already said he was asked to play when on the verge. Martinez is another case in point I reckon. My view is that ETH was desperate at points during the season and gambled on fitness. This was in the context of choosing not to adapt his low block high press lunacy and perhaps using the players he did have available in a more conservative formation.

min terms of the dressing room, my only point was that it’s unlikely the players would be so distraught with him leaving the INEOS would have to take it into consideration before telling him to pack his bags.
 
justsomebloke said:
A club at odds with itself doesn't succeed. It's as simple as that. Either he's on board, or he's a problem.
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Yes. But it's also possible that INEOS approach is a problem, not his approach. Both being add odds with each other is however definitely worrying and hopefully this will be resolved soon.
 
ArmaDino said:
Our worst ever season was under Moyes. We went from a title winning squad to 7th while being utterly humiliated by all our rivals home and away. The only reason we even finished 7th that season is because Giggs got us a couple of wins which bumped us up the table. Everything else is just mental gymnastics.

And the new norm is that we are not a title winning team and haven't been one since SAF retired.


It's funny how you pick a small sample of 2 years just to prove a point while disregarding the previous 3 were we finished 6th, 2nd and 6th again. Mind you, that 2nd place Mourinho said at the time was the biggest achievement of his career. A lot of people(myself included) thought he was bigging himself up to look good. Now I realize with all the disfunction behind the scenes, he actually meant it.

While we are at it let's ignore the fact that the season before our 2nd and 3rd place finish we also finished 6th and that was inspite of Ole's winning run of 10 wins in a row or something crazy like that.

The fact that the season before ETH took over we were playing some of the most horrendous football somehow also gets disregarded. Or the fact that the players completely downed tools and refused to listen to Ragnick's pressing tactics. Let's ignore that as well. Or the fact that oppo teams would bypass our midfield as if it wasn't there and score 4 or more goals on multiple ocasions somehow gets memory holed. This season was a repeat of that season compounded by injuries. The only thing that made our season even worse is Casemiro's legs giving out completely. Hence we got way more exposed in the middle than normally.

Last season when we finished 3rd, was a honeymoon season with a manager bounce and Casemiro being in top form. Towards the end we already could see that the wheels were coming off simply because we were going back to our normal performance aka other teams bypassing us through the middle and scoring for fun. Yet only ETH gets blamed for a problem that we've been having since the early Ole days.

Now Ole did play a more robust double pivot of McFred to avoid this, but once we moved to a more controlling style of play, we got fully exposed. This cost him his United job. And it almost did ETH's as well. With the emergence of Mainoo, it looks like we have 1 piece in a 2 piece jigsaw puzzle. However we are in need of another top class midfield to shore up our midfield without losing the creativity. Rice would have been a very good option, but alas we went with Casemiro.

But yeah, sure let's ignore all these issues because we are a top class club that never finishes below 3rd. So anyone that does should be automatically sacked and then wonder why we haven't fixed our issues that we had since the Mourinho days. Maybe because we need to give the managers time to actually fix them?

Granted, now that we supposedly have a football structure and a potentially competent DoF, this issue shouldn't even be on the manager's radar. A DoF should take care of it. But of course having clowns like Woodward and Arnold run things, and lackeys like Murtough run the footballing department got us were we are. ETH clearly identified our midfield woes from day 1 when he tried signing De Jong/Rice with Casemiro for that extra robustness/creativity from the middle. So the man clearly knows what's the issue.
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Realy good post.
 
Ichabod Ferguson said:
I think the Laurie Whitwell article in the Athletic, whilst playing well to the narrative that the players are the problem, is really worrying.

I've seen managers in various jobs walk in and alienate staff and have to fight constant battles to get people onside and I can't say I've ever seen departments that were particularly unmanageable before that; it has, in my experience, almost always been a failure of management.

In the media ten Hag comes across as prickly, uncharismatic and robotic, and the glimpses we get behind the scene seem to support that picture. Being a manager is as much about getting players on board as it is about having a fantastic tactical plan, and whilst I am sure there are bad eggs in the squad that need to go, it's yet more reports of senior players unconvinced by his methods and by him as a manager.

I think the problem with this INEOS decision is that there is only one possible way that ten Hag can be a success here, and that's by an almost complete cull of the remaining senior players who either have, according to Whitwell, undermined him or just don't fit. Casemiro will have to follow Varane, Rashford will have to go and Maguire too.

The obvious question is do INEOS trust a man they clearly were quite willing to get rid of if they could find a better option to carry out a ruthless cull and retool the squad with younger and more pliable players who won't push back? Because, even if you do that, you're left with the distinct possibility that the reason Varane and Casemiro were running around telling people that ten Hag's tactics don't work is because they've won it all and know that ten Hag's tactics don't work.

I think this summer is going to be instructive, and I can't see us emerging well from it.
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I wonder if perhaps you're somewhat exaggerating the level of disenchantment in the squad, and also the level of turnover required? But other than that, these are excellent points.
 
stefan92 said:
Yes. But it's also possible that INEOS approach is a problem, not his approach. Both being add odds with each other is however definitely worrying and hopefully this will be resolved soon.
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The way I see it, this is part of the learning curve for INEOs. For people who think “ETH needs to shut up and do what INEOs say”, it really isn’t that simple. He has a contact , he has another year, he doesn’t need to do anything INEOs want to do or change.

Not just that, we’ve seen it with Jose, Conte and other managers where they don’t have to quit but you can see they need to be moved on. So ETH can suit himself for the next 12 months. My point is that INEOs will learn that it’s better to work with a manager then go half in or make demands you really aren’t in a position to make.

I have no issue with ETH coming out fighting or maybe just being bluntly honest. Part of the healing process at United, for me, is fans hearing honest assessments of what’s going on that isn’t sugar coating waffle that you generally get.

I’ve said it before, most of what managers or players say in media counts for little. The pundit stuff is amusing, but some people are trying to make it into something more important, maybe cause they are bored ?
 
Absolutely fascinating situation. Ratcliffe (and his think tank, some lodged in gardens) thinks themselves awful smart. They are not. They have certain strengths, including liking fooball, that puts them ahead of the American clowns. I supported INEOS and SJR against the oil people, hoping for sanity and dilution of the Glazer influence. But it has gone rapidly downhill. It's not over, and could yet come good, but some very bad signs. How stupid to make it known they wanted him before agreeing terms of his new contract? I think he should shut up now, by the way, having made all his points. Now we need a great, not a good, but a fecking outstanding transfer window. Everyone quit with the PR. We need rid of moaners like Rashford and get in some players who do what is asked of them. That's all.
 
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stefan92 said:
Yes. But it's also possible that INEOS approach is a problem, not his approach. Both being add odds with each other is however definitely worrying and hopefully this will be resolved soon.
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INEOS haven't exactly covered themselves in glory so far, for sure. But if those two are at odds, there's ultimately only going to be one who's got to budge, and that's ten Hag. Also, a revamp and strategy can only come from one place, and it's not ten Hag. He can obstruct, he cannot create. And an obstructed strategy is even worse than a bad one.

In any case, I think we must hope that when Berrada and Ashworth is in place, that's where the shots will get called. Not having managed that by the start of the window is perhaps INEOS' worst failure.
 
El Zoido said:
Does he need to? Ineos just need to watch the drizzling shit on display every time England take to the field.
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No but it does also keep it in the spotlight and brings fan opinion on Southgate to the fore. I’m not against it, anything to keep Southgate further away from the United job is fine with me!
 
Sell all players who don't want to stay. Sell those whose wages don't match their performance.

Buy one or, at most, two key players. Let Ten Hag show how capable a manager he truly is. The expectations would be lower, and he would get to work with a squad he knows well.

If we again buy players for hundreds of millions, the pressure will rise once more, and everything will go wrong as soon as there are a few poor results.

A young squad, a Ten Hag who can truly put his mark on the team without extra pressure, and a board that handles everything off the pitch while focusing on well-scouted players for the 25/26 season.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It's a weak achievement because the main criteria to assess cup performance, by far, is "which stage did you exit in." An R16 exit is not good.

You can view it as a positive if you want but the general perception at the time was not positive. See here.
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From made-up achievement, to weak achievement, what will your next term be? Sounds like a true Real Madrid fan by the way, some clubs there main target is to reach the group stage. Others to qualify to knockouts etc. It was disappointing to exit vs Benfica in a quite even match-up that could have gone either way, but that group stage is something that no Ajax fan will forget any time soon. Beating Dortmund with Haaland/Bellingham home and away, was one of the most exciting moments for Ajax fans in the past 5 years.
 
Nogho said:
Sell all players who don't want to stay. Sell those whose wages don't match their performance.

Buy one or, at most, two key players. Let Ten Hag show how capable a manager he truly is. The expectations would be lower, and he would get to work with a squad he knows well.

If we again buy players for hundreds of millions, the pressure will rise once more, and everything will go wrong as soon as there are a few poor results.

A young squad, a Ten Hag who can truly put his mark on the team without extra pressure, and a board that handles everything off the pitch while focusing on well-scouted players for the 25/26 season.
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We just need eleven of Antony and a giant hole in the midfield, and our boy can fly.
 
Ricardo de la Vega said:
We needed Frenkie de Jong tbh but got Casemiro instead. I got a lot of shit for saying that in the transfer threads on here when Casemiro looked golden but I stand by it.
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He wanted both. Casemiro in hindsight was a mistake, but looked damnn good in his first season.
 
Ten Hag not just a bad manager who's lacking certain skills and knowledge but a pretty embarrassing figure too. He just keeps repeating his cliché sentences like "i see we are getting better" and "i see the development" and so on and literally everyone's laughing at him (and the club) including the majority of United fans. Not to mention his extremely "succesful" signings like the worst joke Antony, Malacia (anyone remembers him?), Amrabat, whatever. Awful in every aspect.
 
Ichabod Ferguson said:
I think the Laurie Whitwell article in the Athletic, whilst playing well to the narrative that the players are the problem, is really worrying.

I've seen managers in various jobs walk in and alienate staff and have to fight constant battles to get people onside and I can't say I've ever seen departments that were particularly unmanageable before that; it has, in my experience, almost always been a failure of management.

In the media ten Hag comes across as prickly, uncharismatic and robotic, and the glimpses we get behind the scene seem to support that picture. Being a manager is as much about getting players on board as it is about having a fantastic tactical plan, and whilst I am sure there are bad eggs in the squad that need to go, it's yet more reports of senior players unconvinced by his methods and by him as a manager.

I think the problem with this INEOS decision is that there is only one possible way that ten Hag can be a success here, and that's by an almost complete cull of the remaining senior players who either have, according to Whitwell, undermined him or just don't fit. Casemiro will have to follow Varane, Rashford will have to go and Maguire too.

The obvious question is do INEOS trust a man they clearly were quite willing to get rid of if they could find a better option to carry out a ruthless cull and retool the squad with younger and more pliable players who won't push back? Because, even if you do that, you're left with the distinct possibility that the reason Varane and Casemiro were running around telling people that ten Hag's tactics don't work is because they've won it all and know that ten Hag's tactics don't work.

I think this summer is going to be instructive, and I can't see us emerging well from it.
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Well said. I would love to be proven hopelessly wrong but I feel it in my gut that the upcoming season is another write-off and ETH will be gone by Christmas. It's why I'm not really bothered if we feck up this transfer window, because I don't think anything is saving this coach anyway and the last thing we need is to add more players to the team that the next manager will have no use for.
 
Tomtattoo said:
Ten Hag not just a bad manager who's lacking certain skills and knowledge but a pretty embarrassing figure too. He just keeps repeating his cliché sentences like "i see we are getting better" and "i see the development" and so on and literally everyone's laughing at him (and the club) including the majority of United fans. Not to mention his extremely "succesful" signings like the worst joke Antony, Malacia (anyone remembers him?), Amrabat, whatever. Awful in every aspect.
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Such nuance here.
 
AjaxCunian said:
From made-up achievement, to weak achievement, what will your next term be? Sounds like a true Real Madrid fan by the way, some clubs there main target is to reach the group stage. Others to qualify to knockouts etc. It was disappointing to exit vs Benfica in a quite even match-up that could have gone either way, but that group stage is something that no Ajax fan will forget any time soon. Beating Dortmund with Haaland/Bellingham home and away, was one of the most exciting moments for Ajax fans in the past 5 years.
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Can confirm and not playing Inter because of a UEFA cock up and losing to Benfica instead was extremely sour.
 
Ricardo de la Vega said:
How is it weird? Loads of managers do it for their national TV in the off season. Its entirely normal.
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It’s unprofessional as you’re inevitably going to be asked about your club situation, as happened here, which you really shouldn’t be commenting on.

You’re also going to have to make public comments on players who may later turn out to be transfer targets. It’s an inherent conflict of interest. I’m surprised we allowed it.
 
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