Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[pcaming]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ed-game-model-jason-wilcox-identity-transfer/

Ducker's article is interesting, identifying the "Frankenstein squad" as the key problem. ETH simply cannot impose a coherent style of play on such a disparate group, any more that Frankenstein's Monster can ballroom dance. So he's left trying to high press with defenders who can't push up, as one example.

Which is not to say he hasn't made a litany of errors while trying to fix the unfixable. But it does not mean he would be a bad manager in a well run club.

Him not adjusting to suite, as he did last year, tells me he could still be a bad manager in a well run club. He has made systematic changes, on observation of what he has available, that are horrendous.

I have no doubt many of this squad need dumping on the side of the street, as I have no doubt Ten Hag should be next to them.

 

[pocco]

Indeed. A serious club gets rid of him months ago

That's the crazy thing. Yet look at the absolute lengths certain posters go to in order to defend him. Now they're desperately hoping beyond hope that this audit saves him. Any other serious club would have binned him ages ago, and would have binned the previous managers probably sooner too. I think I read that Bayern have had more managers than us since 2013, and yet we have posters saying it's not normal to do what we do.

You don't just settle on a failed manager because all the previous ones failed, and claim it must just be something wrong with the club. The hierarchy has changed twice in the last 10 years, with a new structure put in place with Murtough/Fletcher etc. Woodward left and was replaced by Arnold. And it is changing again, so it's not like one structure has just failed them all - it's not a common denominator. The money has been there tenfold in recent years also, recent managers have been well backed. The coaching staff has changed a lot over the last 10 years, and two of those hounded out are looking like potentially very good managers. These two were blamed by Ole's apologists, and look like they're better managers than him! The players have changed massively over 10 years, so again, tough to claim these are the common denominator.

For me, we just simply make bad choices when we pick our managers.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Theres a ton that neither you nor I know.

For example you are assuming he wanted full control because of his own ego, and not because he didnt trust a club that sacks their global head scouts. You are assuming the medical staff operate well, and that the politics among players is manageable for the coach. You're assuming the way our transfer targets were set in the summer is consistent with Ten Hag's methods and preferences.

We actually dont know anything - we watch games and hope journalists punt on the right stuff. The people who will know are the guys making an audit and deep diving into the situation. I trust their judgement more than any other.

I didn't assume that. I never once said he wanted full control. Credible reports stated he wanted a say in transfers. Do you dispute that?

2nd bold: There's been reports of players picking up injuries through the intense training sessions ETH has put them through. But either way, there's been no real report of gross negligence by the medical staff. And there's been no real report of dressing room unrest or player politics getting in the way of his coaching.

3rd bolded: There's been no report ever of a player being signed without ETH's approval. He has a reported veto. His 1st preferential signing(or 2nd if you want to argue Kane) by all reports was Mount and he was signed early on.

You genuinely listed a ton of excuses for him. You argue that we don't know anything besides watching the games, but then listed a few assumptions without any credible information backing those assumptions.

 

[pocco]

Theres a ton that neither you nor I know.

For example you are assuming he wanted full control because of his own ego, and not because he didnt trust a club that sacks their global head scouts. You are assuming the medical staff operate well, and that the politics among players is manageable for the coach. You're assuming the way our transfer targets were set in the summer is consistent with Ten Hag's methods and preferences.

We actually dont know anything - we watch games and hope journalists punt on the right stuff. The people who will know are the guys making an audit and deep diving into the situation. I trust their judgement more than any other.

Ten Hag described the setup under Murtough as 'perfect'.

 

[SouthMancRed]

Southampton played the same style of football from the youth teams to first team right after Wilcox arrived there last summer.

I'm surprised clubs have it any other way.

It’s because nothing changed. Glazers , for whatever reason, didn’t bother doing what INEOs are doing. There was nothing stopping these changes being made so I can only think apathy or ego maybe (not wanting to give power to other people to make football decisions?) from Glazers prevented any meaningful change taking place.

I see it as the same as “we need to change managers faster” thinking. It’s not really changing anything relating to the fundamental issues at the club , it’s just doing something else cause look at that club there doing it.

You could also add ignorance.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

That's the crazy thing. Yet look at the absolute lengths certain posters go to in order to defend him. Now they're desperately hoping beyond hope that this audit saves him. Any other serious club would have binned him ages ago, and would have binned the previous managers probably sooner too. I think I read that Bayern have had more managers than us since 2013, and yet we have posters saying it's not normal to do what we do.

You don't just settle on a failed manager because all the previous ones failed, and claim it must just be something wrong with the club. The hierarchy has changed twice in the last 10 years, with a new structure put in place with Murtough/Fletcher etc. Woodward left and was replaced by Arnold. And it is changing again, so it's not like one structure has just failed them all - it's not a common denominator. The money has been there tenfold in recent years also, recent managers have been well backed. The coaching staff has changed a lot over the last 10 years, and two of those hounded out are looking like potentially very good managers. These two were blamed by Ole's apologists, and look like they're better managers than him! The players have changed massively over 10 years, so again, tough to claim these are the common denominator.

For me, we just simply make bad choices when we pick our managers.

I don't understand.

Now some are hoping the audit will 'prove them right' and they're okay with that decision either way. That speech of SAF telling people to back the manager seems to have been fully ingrained in some supporters. Or they're pining for SAF 2.0 yet again. It's remarkable to me.

@Skills has an opinion of our fanbase that some people here criticize, but I genuinely think he's right. We have the most lenient fanbase of any top level sports franchise/club in the world. It's remarkable to me.

 

[pocco]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ed-game-model-jason-wilcox-identity-transfer/

Ducker's article is interesting, identifying the "Frankenstein squad" as the key problem. ETH simply cannot impose a coherent style of play on such a disparate group, any more that Frankenstein's Monster can ballroom dance. So he's left trying to high press with defenders who can't push up, as one example.

Which is not to say he hasn't made a litany of errors while trying to fix the unfixable. But it does not mean he would be a bad manager in a well run club.

Why can't our defenders push up? It's just clear nonsense and tells me straight away that Ducker is, for whatever reason, not being honest. Even when we have our first choice defence we still look the same and there's no getting away from that.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Why can't our defenders push up? It's just clear nonsense and tells me straight away that Ducker is, for whatever reason, not being honest. Even when we have our first choice defence we still look the same and there's no getting away from that.

Our defensive line with our back 4 last season(our 1st choice back 4) was apparently lower than it was under Ole. I can't remember the source for this though.

At this point, people are just chatting nonsense about ETH. Some are actually convinced he's a Messiah-like manager.

 

[stefan92]

Why can't our defenders push up? It's just clear nonsense and tells me straight away that Ducker is, for whatever reason, not being honest. Even when we have our first choice defence we still look the same and there's no getting away from that.

Yep. It's simply a choice. Sit deep behind that high front line and you give away control, but can at least defend the goal itself -> leads to high amount of not great chances for the other team.
The alternative is to push the defence high, control the match much better, but be vulnerable as these defenders aren't the best at defending space in their back -> would lead to fewer but better chances against.

It's either a deliberate tactical choice or EtH has lost the team a long time ago.

 

[pocco]

Our defensive line with our back 4 last season(our 1st choice back 4) was apparently lower than it was under Ole. I can't remember the source for this though.

At this point, people are just chatting nonsense about ETH. Some are actually convinced he's a Messiah-like manager.

Yep. It's simply a choice. Sit deep behind that high front line and you give away control, but can at least defend the goal itself -> leads to high amount of not great chances for the other team.
The alternative is to push the defence high, control the match much better, but be vulnerable as these defenders aren't the best at defending space in their back -> would lead to fewer but better chances against.

It's either a deliberate tactical choice or EtH has lost the team a long time ago.

Ducker comes across like an ETH mouthpiece, coming out with some the things he does. Henry Winter the same. Apparently ETHs agent is actively feeding journos.

 

[crossy1686]

No one in the United hierarchy would have told him to play this way. I doubt Arnold, Murtagh or one of the parasites sat him down and went into great detail on how they expect him to play.

This isn't a philosophy or the beginnings of implementing one, those suggestions are nonsense. It's blind stubbornness, incompetence or sabotage to persevere with such an amatuerish setup. I don't think Ten Hag or his coaches can't see what the problem is so it likely isn't incompetence. Sabotage sort of but it's probably more dogma. My guess is he thought he could make this work and invested a lot into saying this will work but is too proud/stubborn to admit he's wrong and change things.

It was obvious by December/January things weren't being changed, but there was no one in place who could pull the trigger on him. And the whole season got flushed down the shitter as a result, going forward under Ineos I hope they get everything in place so that managerial changes can be made mid-season when things aren't working.

I also doubt that, but I heard Les Ferdinand speak a few weeks ago, and as the former Director of Football for QPR he said he and the manager would have a long term plan and even if that meant short term failure on the pitch, as long as the manager stuck to the plan his job was safe. He said managers only got sacked when they went against the club plan and started doing their own thing.

So what I meant with Ten Hag is that there is a chance him and Murtough decided that this was the way to play and to stick to it so they could identify which players need to be moved on if they can't grasp it this season. None of that matters any more because Murtough has gotten the boot, and I'm sure Ten Hag will follow regardless.

For me there were obvious issues with the way we were set up last season, and in the pre-season I predicted this season would happen exactly the way it has unless he changed his approach. It's been fairly obvious to a lot of people that whatever he's trying to do just doesn't work in the PL and never will. We should steer well clear of these 'philosophy' managers.

 

[golden_blunder]

Frankenstein squad - of which he built at least 50% off

 

[NLunited]

So I'm 'whining in hindsight' am I, because I disagree with your statement, and came up with an alternative view.
Check my previous posts if you think I'm only saying this because of what happened Sunday.
Oh, at the bottom of this page it mentions being respectful to other posters, which I don't think you were.

Are you saying you aren‘t one of those who criticizes decisions in hindsight? If Mainoo went off injured in the 90th minute, would you have said „that‘s too bad, it was the right decision to keep him on“.

Nah, I stand by calling you out.

 

[crossy1686]

Ten Hag described the setup under Murtough as 'perfect'.

Total control, zero accountability, massive transfer budget, no scrutiny on your desired transfers, full backing. Sounds pretty perfect to me.

 

[NLunited]

Total control, zero accountability, massive transfer budget, no scrutiny on your desired transfers, full backing. Sounds pretty perfect to me.

That quote has to not be taken out of context. It‘s like calling Frankenstein perfect.

 

[Ubik]

Ducker comes across like an ETH mouthpiece, coming out with some the things he does. Henry Winter the same. Apparently ETHs agent is actively feeding journos.

This is the actual line in the article, as far as I can tell

While there is an acceptance internally United have not had the defenders to play a high line, Ten Hag has persisted on operating with a high press that has left the team routinely exposed in midfield and Wilcox is likely to provide feedback on all of these sorts of questions for his superiors.

So it's not actually particularly flattering on ten Hag.

 

[Fallon d'Floor]

Ducker comes across like an ETH mouthpiece, coming out with some the things he does. Henry Winter the same. Apparently ETHs agent is actively feeding journos.

Goldbridge is only pro ten Hag because he's on good terms with ten Hag's camp. It's how he got his interview with Hojlund.

 

[VP89]

I didn't assume that. I never once said he wanted full control. Credible reports stated he wanted a say in transfers. Do you dispute that?

No - but a lot has been said about his stubbornness in wanting this, which I don't quite understand. I'd be surprised if any coach rocked in knowing the shitshow the club was and didn't want to review the transfers with a veto.

2nd bold: There's been reports of players picking up injuries through the intense training sessions ETH has put them through. But either way, there's been no real report of gross negligence by the medical staff. And there's been no real report of dressing room unrest or player politics getting in the way of his coaching.

There's also open frustration from Ten Hag toward his medical staff in pressers.
Youre relying too much on reports to be 1) accurate and 2) give a full deep dive in the situation. In reality they dont know whats underneath sea level of the iceberg. There are often reports of player frustration too, by the way.

3rd bolded: There's been no report ever of a player being signed without ETH's approval. He has a reported veto. His 1st preferential signing(or 2nd if you want to argue Kane) by all reports was Mount and he was signed early on.

That doesnt mean it's a system that works.

How do you know, objectively, that for Hojlund for example - Ten Hag didn't want better targets? According to The Athletic he was provided Ramos and Kolo Muani as alternatives, and he chose to sign off on Hojlund. Does that mean he's supported? Or does that suggest we dont have a good framework for identifying talent that can overlay and support a manager? We also spent £70m on him knowing he was told he can leave for £52m. Is that support and backing? or is that just dumbass moves by a DoF out of his depth?

You genuinely listed a ton of excuses for him. You argue that we don't know anything besides watching the games, but then listed a few assumptions without any credible information backing those assumptions.

I'm not excusing him for anything. I'm saying there's a lot that you and I don't know. I've said this constantly in our sub debate - nothing I say is an excuse for Ten Hag. I literally said the words "if the audit thinks he should go, I'll back that". But you still think I'm excusing him. There's a problem with you here.

 

[Rightnr]

Interesting for me is that Tuchel seems to have fallen out with the Chelsea hierarchy because he wanted to focus on a coaching role, as opposed to also having to deal with transfers.

It fits well with INEOS's rumoured vision for the job of first team 'manager' going forward.

If we win the FA cup, it gives both parties a great way to get what they want, including briefing to the press.

 

[stevoc]

I also doubt that, but I heard Les Ferdinand speak a few weeks ago, and as the former Director of Football for QPR he said he and the manager would have a long term plan and even if that meant short term failure on the pitch, as long as the manager stuck to the plan his job was safe. He said managers only got sacked when they went against the club plan and started doing their own thing.

So what I meant with Ten Hag is that there is a chance him and Murtough decided that this was the way to play and to stick to it so they could identify which players need to be moved on if they can't grasp it this season. None of that matters any more because Murtough has gotten the boot, and I'm sure Ten Hag will follow regardless.

For me there were obvious issues with the way we were set up last season, and in the pre-season I predicted this season would happen exactly the way it has unless he changed his approach. It's been fairly obvious to a lot of people that whatever he's trying to do just doesn't work in the PL and never will. We should steer well clear of these 'philosophy' managers.

I'm sure it happens but he'd be a complete buffoon to persevere with a stupid system imposed on him by Arnold/Murtagh when it's been obvious for months they were getting the boot.

It's genuinely baffling trying to make sense of what has made him persist with this shit.

 

[Plant0x84]

Should be compulsory viewing for everyone at Ineos, and any fan who still tries to delude themselves that there's some plan hidden in the chaos.

Having had a few days to consider the game, I have a few issues with this video as follows.

1. This guy is clearly pushing an Anti-ETH agenda because it gets him clicks and likes. United sacking a manager and then the search for a replacement is always going to sell magazines and papers. He’s literally begging for it to happen. Absolutely no mitigation is considered at all. It’s a very biased take.
2. Not isolated to this video, but there seems to be a total over exaggeration of ‘how bad our game was’. It wasn’t. We were cruising for 70 mins until Robins matched up our formation and went full court press. (And more importantly we lost our out ball to Garnacho and our MF resistance in Mainoo - no doubt those subs weakened our team) First goal is a good move and a great finish. Our defending was woeful and they capitalised on this. But my god, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They levelled up the game with an enormous flukey deflection and a really weak penalty that should have been over turned by VAR. We had a similar incident in there box but of course we can whistle for a pen. No conspiracy theories or paranoia but that just shouldn’t have been a penalty. I don’t know where Aaron was supposed to put his arm?!
3. This dude bangs on about how bad our defensive positioning is, and he’s right. It’s pretty poor. Why is that? Could it be because we had a RB at left back (whose positioning in his natural position isn’t always spot on) and an aging CM in defence? Could it be because Casemiro was staying deep to cover the fact he moves like he’s towing a caravan these days? We were patched up to hell, but that’s nothing to do with it. It MUST be the managers tactics and how shite our players are. Obvs.
4. Poor little Coventry were robbed, we got a lucky VAR call to overturn the ‘goal’ in ET. We scrapped through etc. Guess what, VAR and offside is part of the game. He was offside as per the current rules. It was a correct call to disallow the goal. It’s not unlucky - it’s poor play from the forward who should be looking across the line. It’s literally the rules of the game. Sorry, not sorry.

Look, I’m not saying we weren’t at fault, I’m not saying it acceptable for our team to implode when Kobbie and Alejandro are rested (even though we know Antony is shite, and Eriksen has seen his best days and hasn’t played football in forever), I’m not saying our defense is great, our positioning correct or the tactics don’t need looking at - but there is absolutely no context being put on the game and it’s bizarre how this is being spun as our worst game in the history of the universe. All things considered it really wasn’t that bad, and we know this team is exceptionally fragile mentally - goals were inevitable when the first one went in, but we were very unfortunate to end up playing ET and penos.

@hobbers, I’m replying to the video not your post so don’t bother replying - we already know it’ll be terrible ten hag this and sack kill destroy that. Save us the misery.

 

[Roboc7]

Frankenstein squad - of which he built at least 50% off

It is a Frankenstein squad but as you point out he has just continued that issue with the recruitment and made it worse. The tactics are also Frankenstein and almost nonsensical which is his biggest issue as it undermines a lot of the excuses/mitigation.

 

[The Hilton]

Frankenstein squad - of which he built at least 50% off

This is pretty disingenuous, it only works if you include youth players that have been promoted under him, and that only works if you ignore various members of the squad that are out on loan (Sancho, etc).

There are plenty of sticks to beat ETH with, but the squad clearly isn't one that he can rely on yet, especially once injuries kick in.

 

[Ubik]

Having had a few days to consider the game, I have a few issues with this video as follows.

1. This guy is clearly pushing an Anti-ETH agenda because it gets him clicks and likes. United sacking a manager and then the search for a replacement is always going to sell magazines and papers. He’s literally begging for it to happen. Absolutely no mitigation is considered at all. It’s a very biased take.
2. Not isolated to this video, but there seems to be a total over exaggeration of ‘how bad our game was’. It wasn’t. We were cruising for 70 mins until Robins matched up our formation and went full court press. (And more importantly we lost our out ball to Garnacho and our MF resistance in Mainoo - no doubt those subs weakened our team) First goal is a good move and a great finish. Our defending was woeful and they capitalised on this. But my god, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They levelled up the game with an enormous flukey deflection and a really weak penalty that should have been over turned by VAR. We had a similar incident in there box but of course we can whistle for a pen. No conspiracy theories or paranoia but that just shouldn’t have been a penalty. I don’t know where Aaron was supposed to put his arm?!
3. This dude bangs on about how bad our defensive positioning is, and he’s right. It’s pretty poor. Why is that? Could it be because we had a RB at left back (whose positioning in his natural position isn’t always spot on) and an aging CM in defence? Could it be because Casemiro was staying deep to cover the fact he moves like he’s towing a caravan these days? We were patched up to hell, but that’s nothing to do with it. It MUST be the managers tactics and how shite our players are. Obvs.
4. Poor little Coventry were robbed, we got a lucky VAR call to overturn the ‘goal’ in ET. We scrapped through etc. Guess what, VAR and offside is part of the game. He was offside as per the current rules. It was a correct call to disallow the goal. It’s not unlucky - it’s poor play from the forward who should be looking across the line. It’s literally the rules of the game. Sorry, not sorry.

Look, I’m not saying we weren’t at fault, I’m not saying it acceptable for our team to implode when Kobbie and Alejandro are rested (even though we know Antony is shite, and Eriksen has seen his best days and hasn’t played football in forever), I’m not saying our defense is great, our positioning correct or the tactics don’t need looking at - but there is absolutely no context being put on the game and it’s bizarre how this is being spun as our worst game in the history of the universe. All things considered it really wasn’t that bad, and we know this team is exceptionally fragile mentally - goals were inevitable when the first one went in, but we were very unfortunate to end up playing ET and penos.

@hobbers, I’m replying to the video not your post so don’t bother replying - we already know it’ll be terrible ten hag this and sack kill destroy that. Save us the misery.

You can't ask for context to be made in terms of the game but ignore the context of our season. The performance and collapse was extremely predictable and in line with how we've been playing for going on a year. People are annoyed because it's not a one-off thing, it's what this team is now.

 

[hobbers]

Having had a few days to consider the game, I have a few issues with this video as follows.

1. This guy is clearly pushing an Anti-ETH agenda because it gets him clicks and likes. United sacking a manager and then the search for a replacement is always going to sell magazines and papers. He’s literally begging for it to happen. Absolutely no mitigation is considered at all. It’s a very biased take.
2. Not isolated to this video, but there seems to be a total over exaggeration of ‘how bad our game was’. It wasn’t. We were cruising for 70 mins until Robins matched up our formation and went full court press. (And more importantly we lost our out ball to Garnacho and our MF resistance in Mainoo - no doubt those subs weakened our team) First goal is a good move and a great finish. Our defending was woeful and they capitalised on this. But my god, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They levelled up the game with an enormous flukey deflection and a really weak penalty that should have been over turned by VAR. We had a similar incident in there box but of course we can whistle for a pen. No conspiracy theories or paranoia but that just shouldn’t have been a penalty. I don’t know where Aaron was supposed to put his arm?!
3. This dude bangs on about how bad our defensive positioning is, and he’s right. It’s pretty poor. Why is that? Could it be because we had a RB at left back (whose positioning in his natural position isn’t always spot on) and an aging CM in defence? Could it be because Casemiro was staying deep to cover the fact he moves like he’s towing a caravan these days? We were patched up to hell, but that’s nothing to do with it. It MUST be the managers tactics and how shite our players are. Obvs.

Look, I’m not saying we weren’t at fault, I’m not saying it acceptable for our team to implode when Kobbie and Alejandro are rested (even though we know Antony is shite, and Eriksen has seen his best days and hasn’t played football in forever), I’m not saying our defense is great, our positioning correct or the tactics don’t need looking at - but there is absolutely no context being put on the game and it’s bizarre how this is being spun as our worst game in the history of the universe. All things considered it really wasn’t that bad, and we know this team is exceptionally fragile mentally - goals were inevitable when the first one went in, but we were very unfortunate to end up playing ET and penos.

@hobbers, I’m replying to the video not your post so don’t bother replying - we already know it’ll be terrible ten hag this and sack kill destroy that. Save us the misery.

Are you sure you even watched the video? If you did you'd know it is only critical of how we played after Coventry made their subs at 3-0 down. And how we continued to play despite conceding and letting them back into the game. So you can drop all this ranting on about "no mitigation" and "crazy pills" and "no context".

The fundamental point is that if Ten Hag was a competent manager and understood this system, then he would easily pivot away from this system in situations where we just need to see out games. But we dont. Because he is either a clueless manager or so bad at preparation and communication that his ideas dont get through to the players.

And Coventry just followed the exact same blueprint as what happened against Brentford and Liverpool and Chelsea and Fulham etc. If you cant spot the patterns by this point there's no hope.

 

[PeteReDevil]

7 games left of the season. The only way I'd bother watching is if he's gone. None of our previous managers gave me that feeling.

 

[Plant0x84]

You can't ask for context to be made in terms of the game but ignore the context of our season. The performance and collapse was extremely predictable and in line with how we've been playing for going on a year. People are annoyed because it's not a one-off thing, it's what this team is now.

Fair, I get that and agree but again I have to bring it back to 65 injuries. It’s just ridiculous. We weren’t seeing these huge gaps last year when our best players were all fit.

 

[Jev]

Just said the reaction from the media to the Coventry game was ‘embarrassing’ and ‘a disgrace’. He’s gone fully in denial and self-preservation mode, sounds more and more delusional by the day.

 

[Jev]

This is pretty disingenuous, it only works if you include youth players that have been promoted under him, and that only works if you ignore various members of the squad that are out on loan (Sancho, etc).

There are plenty of sticks to beat ETH with, but the squad clearly isn't one that he can rely on yet, especially once injuries kick in.

How many players does a manager have to sign before you can reasonably start expecting things of him?

 

[redshaw]

Having had a few days to consider the game, I have a few issues with this video as follows.

1. This guy is clearly pushing an Anti-ETH agenda because it gets him clicks and likes. United sacking a manager and then the search for a replacement is always going to sell magazines and papers. He’s literally begging for it to happen. Absolutely no mitigation is considered at all. It’s a very biased take.
2. Not isolated to this video, but there seems to be a total over exaggeration of ‘how bad our game was’. It wasn’t. We were cruising for 70 mins until Robins matched up our formation and went full court press. (And more importantly we lost our out ball to Garnacho and our MF resistance in Mainoo - no doubt those subs weakened our team) First goal is a good move and a great finish. Our defending was woeful and they capitalised on this. But my god, I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. They levelled up the game with an enormous flukey deflection and a really weak penalty that should have been over turned by VAR. We had a similar incident in there box but of course we can whistle for a pen. No conspiracy theories or paranoia but that just shouldn’t have been a penalty. I don’t know where Aaron was supposed to put his arm?!
3. This dude bangs on about how bad our defensive positioning is, and he’s right. It’s pretty poor. Why is that? Could it be because we had a RB at left back (whose positioning in his natural position isn’t always spot on) and an aging CM in defence? Could it be because Casemiro was staying deep to cover the fact he moves like he’s towing a caravan these days? We were patched up to hell, but that’s nothing to do with it. It MUST be the managers tactics and how shite our players are. Obvs.
4. Poor little Coventry were robbed, we got a lucky VAR call to overturn the ‘goal’ in ET. We scrapped through etc. Guess what, VAR and offside is part of the game. He was offside as per the current rules. It was a correct call to disallow the goal. It’s not unlucky - it’s poor play from the forward who should be looking across the line. It’s literally the rules of the game. Sorry, not sorry.

Look, I’m not saying we weren’t at fault, I’m not saying it acceptable for our team to implode when Kobbie and Alejandro are rested (even though we know Antony is shite, and Eriksen has seen his best days and hasn’t played football in forever), I’m not saying our defense is great, our positioning correct or the tactics don’t need looking at - but there is absolutely no context being put on the game and it’s bizarre how this is being spun as our worst game in the history of the universe. All things considered it really wasn’t that bad, and we know this team is exceptionally fragile mentally - goals were inevitable when the first one went in, but we were very unfortunate to end up playing ET and penos.

@hobbers, I’m replying to the video not your post so don’t bother replying - we already know it’ll be terrible ten hag this and sack kill destroy that. Save us the misery.

You bring up the context of the game and players available but what about the context of the season. We've had better players in their positions being open all season losing leads. This is just another example that's been happening, with the personnel available it was more comical at the end of the game but we see it all season regardless who is there, just chaos and huge gaps. If we'd been fairly solid most of the season and Coventry was game was more about the injuries I could understand.

When we played Brentford they had their back four out.

There's been a whole season to prepare our players to close games out.

 

[Plant0x84]

Are you sure you even watched the video? If you did you'd know it is only critical of how we played after Coventry made their subs at 3-0 down. And how we continued to play despite conceding and letting them back into the game. So you can drop all this ranting on about "no mitigation" and "crazy pills" and "no context".

The fundamental point is that if Ten Hag was a competent manager and understood this system, then he would easily pivot away from this system in situations where we just need to see out games. But we dont. Because he is either a clueless manager or so bad at preparation and communication that his ideas dont get through to the players.

Which is also exactly what happened against Brentford and Liverpool and Chelsea and Fulham etc. If you cant spot the patterns by this point there's no hope for you.

And there it is. As unwelcome as school in summertime.

We’ve seen many times this season where ETH will sub off a forward and send on the likes of McT or Amrabat to try and sure up defensively - he clearly isn’t incompetent in this regard.
I also doubt he is instructing ALL of our midfielders to play as 10’s, instructing Dalot to lose his head and continually step out from the back in the last 20 mins and be out of position defensively. There is more to this than just ETH being poor.

 

[JPRouve]

Yep. It's simply a choice. Sit deep behind that high front line and you give away control, but can at least defend the goal itself -> leads to high amount of not great chances for the other team.
The alternative is to push the defence high, control the match much better, but be vulnerable as these defenders aren't the best at defending space in their back -> would lead to fewer but better chances against.

It's either a deliberate tactical choice or EtH has lost the team a long time ago.

The other alternative is what most teams do which is to use a timer for the pressing and then you retreat. While also following coverage rules whether they are man, zonal or hybrid markings but we seem to do none of that. Something that we did last season.

I'll say it again the number one issue in the current system is that there is no logic in the pressing schemes of the front line and they are easily and quickly bypassed which logically creates chaos since the other players end up being outnumbered and attacked before they even have the opportunity to properly transition.

Personally I think that the tactic general idea is deliberate and I also think that the coaching is piss poor.

 

[The Hilton]

How many players does a manager have to sign before you can reasonably start expecting things of him?

It's reasonable to start expecting things of the manager immediately, I never said otherwise and you know it. I'm sure it was a satisfying snarky zinger to post but it's just a tired strawman.

The fact remains though that this isn't Ten Hag's squad, only Onana, Mount, and Antony can be classed as his first choice signings, the rest that have come in under him have been club signings, emergency loans, and backups.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

 

[KiD MoYeS]

He's losing it. he has labelled the reaction to Sunday as embarrassing and a disgrace.

 

[Plant0x84]

You bring up the context of the game and players available but what about the context of the season. We've had better players in their positions being open all season losing leads. This is just another example that's been happening, with the personnel available it was more comical at the end of the game but we see it all season regardless who is there, just chaos and huge gaps. If we'd been fairly solid most of the season and Coventry was game was more about the injuries I could understand.

When we played Brentford they had their back four out.

There's been a whole season to prepare our players to close games out.

Kind of disagree? (Although I acknowledge your point) When Martinez, Shaw and Varane were fit we looked a lot more assured. It’s just that those players have been available few and far between.

 

[Plant0x84]

Next best option I guess, if true.

 

[Oldyella]

Sounds good but requires patience from the fan base… get all these fundamentals in place and we should be good to go.

23% still think ETH should stay. The one thing we have is patient fans

 

[DRJosh]

Do other clubs have ‘manager in’ and ‘manager out’ camps like ours? I feel fan opinions are usually less divided in other clubs where the majority would either want a manager out or are in support of him. Whilst the polls on here suggest most want ETH sacked, the posts seem to suggest some are still firmly believing he’ll lead us to glory.

Very confusing!

 

[hobbers]

And there it is. As unwelcome as school in summertime.

We’ve seen many times this season where ETH will sub off a forward and send on the likes of McT or Amrabat to try and sure up defensively - he clearly isn’t incompetent in this regard.
I also doubt he is instructing ALL of our midfielders to play as 10’s, instructing Dalot to lose his head and continually step out from the back in the last 20 mins and be out of position defensively. There is more to this than just ETH being poor.

It just speaks to areas of preparation and coaching that he doesnt bother with. The routines are not there. The video touches on that as well, with all the frantic pointing and players racing around desperately trying to plug holes, never knowing who is responsible for what. We've seen it all season.

That doesnt happen because our players are collectively more stupid than other teams. It happens because they're left to their own devices. Having a couple of really intelligent footballers and leaders in there could obviously mitigate some of it. But our leaders are Maguire, Casemiro and Bruno, which says it all. And even if Pep has some relative geniuses playing for him, he still knows he has to drill into his players exactly what each of them should do in every imaginable situation in minute detail.