Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Rista]

I’ll never understand people that just wilfully write off winning stuff. The only reason for our club to exist is to win trophies. That’s the purpose of a football team.

Sure, you can make an argument that winning a league cup or FA cup is not an indicator towards eventually winning the League or CL but it’s still a worthwhile endeavour, should be celebrated and should also garnish the manager some credit.

It always has to be taken in the wider context of our other expectations of course but I’d rather win stuff and finish 5th-7th than finish 3rd and trophyless. In Spurs’ glorious decade they’ve won nothing while we’ve won 4 trophies. It matters.

In a one off season, sure, winning a cup may seem like a decent achievement compared to finishing 2nd. But I would much rather be Arsenal right now and build towards something bigger and mount a decent title challenge than win a domestic cup and be a laughing stock in Europe and the PL. Let's be real, nobody really remembers domestic cup winners except their fans. Especially true for the League Cup.

 

[DSG]

One big factor here is the impact of sacking yet another manager on our dressing room culture, which is broken.

Regardless of how good or bad he has done, sacking him says to the players

1. you can be as shit as you want and get away with it, again
2. the manager will always take the fall
3. you get yet another chance under a new manager, who by the way you can also get sacked if you don't like

Even if Ten Hag is not the right man for the job, and even if it means another mediocre season - keeping him in place and telling the players you need to play for this manager - or any manager for this matter, holds power and can be part of the solution for our broken dressing room.

If I was in charge I'd say we recognise he has been operating under extremely challenging circumstances so will support him going him into next season, and we expect you to do the same. That doesn't guarantee his safety for the season and we are keeping our options open, but nor does it guarantee any of your futures at this club either.

Excellent post.

We should refuse to purchase any new players as well.

Also, those gits in the footballing structure who have created this mess, they should stay too.

I’m also for no alcohol sales at OT, and removing stadium seats. We should all be standing.

Finally, we should refuse all televised league and cup games.

The way forward is backwards.

 

[stevoc]

I thought the guy is a Chelsea fan?

Not sure to be honest, I assumed he was talking about Ten Hag. It would be a strange thread to make that claim about Pochettino without clarifying.

 

[Posh Red]

I thought the guy is a Chelsea fan?

Think you’re mixing him up with another poster called The Shed End

 

[Berbaclass]

Think you’re mixing him up with another poster called The Shed End

Yes

 

[VP89]

I know that in your heart of hearts you know Ten Hag is a bust. I know that every morning when you wake up and look in the mirror and prepare for an arduous day of typing up stuff in this thread that you don’t really believe in, you take a deep sigh. I know that when you watch us play you often thing to yourself “fecking hell”. But I get it, you in too deep and got to commit to it til the end, it’s almost admirable. But just know that I know you know it’s over.

You have some weird fantasies dude

 

[Leftback99]

It's funny how people seem to completely forget how bad we are in these breaks between games and somehow convince themselves he's worth more time.

 

[Red Royal]

Turning point for me was the Fulham game at home. Before then we had scraped some results. You either need results or an at least an appearance of improving. We have had neither. Of course we fans don't know what goes on in the training ground, which players are really trying and who has checked out but the most annoying thing for me is that EtH has rarely tried anything different. Against Pool in the cup he was forced to play Amad and it worked. Despite all the full back injuries he still seems to have messed that up.
Surely he could try 3 at the back, a false 9, rest Bruno or just something to stop the last few months of chaos ball. It is the acceptance of mediocrity that gets me, and I was happy when we hired him, last season and even first 10 or so games of this season.

 

[sugar_kane]

Excellent post.

We should refuse to purchase any new players as well.

Also, those gits in the footballing structure who have created this mess, they should stay too.

I’m also for no alcohol sales at OT, and removing stadium seats. We should all be standing.

Finally, we should refuse all televised league and cup games.

The way forward is backwards.

No offence but I genuinely have no idea how you got from what I said to what you said.

That's like the third time that's happened with someone today on this forum (taking something I've written, applying some strange leap of logic with no grounding in what I actually said, and trying to shut down my argument by association with the stupid premise they've come up with) but this is the most bizarre of the lot.

Basically it seems with some people if you try and apply a bit of nuance and reason you'll get shot down because it doesn't involve screaming sack the manager.

So you want a clean sweep across the tea ladies, the canteen staff, the security guards, the kit man, the maintenance men and the ground staff?

not sure what other “staff” you are referring to here as ETH brought his own coaches.

As above, I'm fairly certain you know I don't mean the tea ladies.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

Poll added
Would you be prepared to give ETH one more full season to prove himself?
* assuming new structure in place with no excuses for ETH
* it would be he his last season should he not earn a new contract

Absolutely not. He’s proven that he cannot coach a competent style of play in this league based on 14 months worth of evidence.

 

[pocco]

I'm not sure our manager is underperforming though. Villa and Spurs have better players than us, as do Arsenal and City.

If I'd have asked you at the start of the season if Villa and Spurs have better players than us, you'd have fecking laughed. Everyone would. I bet we could go back to the season prediction thread and there's probably absolutely nobody talking about them finishing above us. It's just revisionism, and has come about because Emery has continued his good work, and the impact of Postecoglu. Which is the crux of this argument ie the impact of a good manager.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This has to be the most damning stat in relation to his ability to take this squad forward.

Absolutely. Shocking stat.

 

[DutchSerb]

I don't think I have it in me to watch another year of Ten Hag ball.

 

[tjb]

If I'd have asked you at the start of the season if Villa and Spurs have better players than us, you'd have fecking laughed. Everyone would. I bet we could go back to the season prediction thread and there's probably absolutely nobody talking about them finishing above us. It's just revisionism, and has come about because Emery has continued his good work, and the impact of Postecoglu. Which is the crux of this argument ie the impact of a good manager.

He's still wrong even with that. Villa nor Spurs would expect to concede 20 shots per game. It's not that results are just terrible, it's that our performances are even worse. This is why this Ten Haag discussion is so frustrating. People keep diverting the conversation from what the issues really are.

a. You have people bringing up transfer failures
b. You have people bringing up players downing tools
c. You have people bringing up poor results
d. People blaming injuries
e. People blaming structure

The fact of the matter is our team has performed terribly in almost every game this season. The team should never perform that badly. It's also quite clear that it's this bad due to the tactics we are employing in every game consistently. No structure would fix what's happened on the pitch this season. No top club would accept how the team has performed under Ten Haag this season. The fact that people are even coming up with these excuses just shows how far we are as a club in our thinking of modern football. The whole point of the structure is to have a figure who understands football to hold the manager and the recruitment team accountable without us having to restart a rebuild every time we have a manager departing. That's why this conversation is so funny. Some fans are using the excuse of not having the structures in place to validate Ten Haag. When the reality is this structure is meant to protect the club from managers like him, so that money is spent responsibly, managers are assessed effectively and decisions are quick and decisive (including terminations).

 

[MrMarcello]

All of the above post can be true with our without a bad manager in place. Unfortunately, it's all true along with a manager not cut for this club or league.

He had my vote of confidence but I gave up that hope by end of December and it just seems nothing is going to progress from here on. If the club is restructuring everything else might as well bring a new manager and assistant staff to work with the new ethos and philosophy, so long as it's not uninspiring dross like Potter and Southgate or the club is just taking a sidestep or worse, going backwards.

 

[Paul778]

All of the above post can be true with our without a bad manager in place. Unfortunately, it's all true along with a manager not cut for this club or league.

He had my vote of confidence but I gave up that hope by end of December and it just seems nothing is going to progress from here on. If the club is restructuring everything else might as well bring a new manager and assistant staff to work with the new ethos and philosophy, so long as it's not uninspiring dross like Potter and Southgate or the club is just taking a sidestep or worse, going backwards.

It's fine. The only reason he is still here is because when we sack him we want to agree a termination fee without any of his performance related bonuses included in the discussion. Even thought it's nigh on impossible to get CL now until it's mathematically impossible it would be a point of negotiation.

Zero possibility that we build a magnificent new footballing with a new CEO, TD, DoF all with huge amounts of experience in the game at the top level, and they then sit on their hands and let ETH have another season like this where we have dominated zero games all season.

 

[Rista]

Creeping towards 1 in 3 having an ingrained loser mentality.

And then people get upset when you say the fanbase in general has a manager cult problem. We could literally be 10th or 12th right now, as we should be, and nothing would change. We have people saying with a straight face that we are not underperforming this season.

 

[Rightnr]

Creeping towards 1 in 3 having an ingrained loser mentality.

It would be nice to have a public poll. It was fine for the Qatar takeover or previous new manager polls.

And before anyone else says I want to target people, I mean to see how many oppo fans are voting for him to stay in.

 

[stevoc]

It would be nice to have a public poll. It was fine for the Qatar takeover or previous new manager polls.

And before anyone else says I want to target people, I mean to see how many oppo fans are voting for him to stay in.

All of them probably.

 

[The Cat]

All of them probably.

Can't argue with them.

 

[andypaps28]

If he is given one more season serious questions have to be asked of Ratcliffe and company. He definitely won't be given one more season. Also if Southgate comes in I'll be boycotting all Utd games and burning my season ticket.

 

[soapythecat]

Spurs last season and now this season. Villa under Gerrard and now a good manager.
Two reasons alone, beyond the absolute shore football we have played for almost 2 season, that ETH shouldn’t even be picking a team this weekend, let alone be here next season. He’s comically out of his depth.

 

[Rightnr]

All of them probably.

Yup.

Can't argue with them.

I'd do the same if I wanted us to finish bottom half next season.

 

[VP89]

Spurs last season and now this season. Villa under Gerrard and now a good manager.
Two reasons alone, beyond the absolute shore football we have played for almost 2 season, that ETH shouldn’t even be picking a team this weekend, let alone be here next season. He’s comically out of his depth.

Emery has done a sound job at Villa. However Ange is still in year one. Second season lulls are a thing, and if we want to be consistent we should look at how Ten Hags debut year was relative to Ange.

You only need to consider the likes of say, Brendan Rogers at Leicester to know how things can sour quickly after 1.5-2 seasons

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Yes, but all the evidence points to the fact that this dysfunctional setup has also been consistently choosing managers that are past it or not good enough. None of them have shown anything to suggest that they were good enough after leaving United.

INEOS (correctly) started at the top, and Murtough is already gone and EtH is next in line to be replaced. He does not have enough of a track record at the top to treat this season as an abomination, and for all the difficulties he encountered we should have done much better, both in terms of results and performances. Had he made it out of CL groups and was lingering 4-5th in the league with good performances mixed with meh and bad ones, hardly anybody would be calling for his head. But we are 7th, out of easy CL group and have overwhelmingly bad performances. It is not good enough regardless of the structure and squad he inherited.

He has been given considerable say over transfers, basically 100% of fans were behind him and only now we are getting some hints that players are losing faith, whilst until recently they were behind him. He had leeway to get rid of the likes of Ronaldo and Sancho with both club and fans also overwhelmingly behind him. In his first season he had the benefit of Rashford having the best season of his career, relatively few injuries, easy Carabao cup draw etc etc. And we had quite good results but performances were not really impressive for the most part (he was correctly given the benefit of the doubt then).
So whereas many things did get bad for him, he also had things that were good for him/conducive to him doing well. I feel that those who advocate giving him another chance also tend to cherry-pick things that went wrong.

We also have evidence that EtH was not first choice for any of the other top clubs with a better structure, and he did not even impress Spurs. So whereas he was not a bad appointment at the time and deserved to have a chance at higher level, it seems that other clubs judged that he is too much of a risk and maybe also benefitted a lot from one of the strongest generations of players in years and good transfers whilst his coaching may be good but not necessarily highest level in top leagues.

In short, I believe that “wait until we are completely sure the manager is not good enough” approach is flawed (and has been unsuccessfully applied by the old structure). The preponderance of evidence in my view points to EtH being a good coach at lower level/more familiar surroundings but is not good enough at PL level, and even with better structure and improved squad we won’t be close to competing for big trophies under him, so it makes total sense to part ways.

And even if he is a genius and everything could click - if players lose faith there can be only one outcome anyway. We are not replacing the entire squad under any structure.

Ultimately, it’s hard to see how ETH can get another year unless INEOs are sort of using it like a “Interim” manager kind of role that gives them another year to fix up the structure , that includes squad building for the longer term (over buying players for any manager).

I don’t think ETH should be kept because we can’t be sure, I can see why it might make sense if we can have a year of purging, possibly a really tough season and come out stronger next summer (for whoever might take over). Or maybe ETH works better with INEOs structure and suits what they plan.

I envisage a future where replacing managers shouldn’t really be a problem , but that could take time to gear the club for that. Why can’t there be a Avram Grant, Matteo , Mancini or a half decent manager (like the way Barca and Bayern seem to be able to throw relative unknowns in as their manager) doing well at United ?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Emery has done a sound job at Villa. However Ange is still in year one. Second season lulls are a thing, and if we want to be consistent we should look at how Ten Hags debut year was relative to Ange.

You only need to consider the likes of say, Brendan Rogers at Leicester to know how things can sour quickly after 1.5-2 seasons

Rodger’s was a Slippy G moment and stupid palace result from winning the league with Pool.

 

[Redfrog]

You just aren’t getting it Stevo. It doesn’t mater how involved ETH was in the Weghorst deal, the issue was that this was what a United manager was left with to have as our MAIN striker. Whether he bought nobody and threw in a youth player , our managers have been stuck with awful alternative players.

If United were good at negotiating for players , we’d of had more money to back ETH that January. Maybe we’d of won Europa and done better in league. Maybe we wouldn’t have been stuck getting Amrabat/reguillon level back ups…..

We can throw Ighalo into the mix. That’s what United get its managers , sub standard options because we are a disaster at transfers.



My post wasn’t about ETH, it was about the ckub. This is what you and others are struggling to understand.





Like Ferguson bringing in Alan smith and making him into a central midfielder or Rafa using Dirk Kuyt as a winger when he was brought in as a striker? Henry was a winger when arsenal
bought him. I’ve no issue with a manager using a 6 month loan signing whatever way they think they should.



Maybe that’s the case but how can you fairly judge a manager who is working in a dysfunctional setup? And we go round and round.

Is Pochetinno so sh*t that Chelsea spending over a billion and he can only barely get above mid table ? Is that how bad Poch is ? What about Tuchel , had a savage squad , transfer kitty of £300 mill, above anything anybody else spent to improve it and he’s sacked after a very poor start to the season.. What’s more likely , that Tuchel failed because he’s bad or because a new owner came in and changed how they run things that actually affected performances?

Clubs that spend poorly and don’t have a modern structure and a modern football plan undermine managers by default.

SJR said United have let all its managers down. That’s probably why ETH hasn’t been replaced since they came in. They are focusing on fixing the structure instead of throwing another manager at the problem.,

The manager can and may be a huge part of the problem aswell, no doubt , but if they are working in toxic conditions with incompetent people and no real overall club plan, we will never know what they might of been able to achieve had things been different.

If you think “god he’s defending ETH” then don’t bother replying to this, I’m sick of some of the hysterical “sack the manager” crowd who are incapable of discussing the manager and club issues with an level of impartiality.

Don’t ever compare SAF to ETH. If you have no issues with how WW was used, you are totally blind. You may well call ETH a Messiah and we will be done with it. No need to discuss when it’s a religious matter.

 

[Oldyella]

Creeping towards 1 in 3 having an ingrained loser mentality.

Bizarre. People are terrified of change?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

The issue for me is that you are trying to force a correlation that isn't there. Our main issues this season are on the field and about tactical decisions. We had these issues during preseason and they have not been fixed by the head coach. Most clubs do not change their squad during the season, most clubs have imperfect squads and also deal with injuries but most decent head coaches find ways to fix glaring issues or mitigate them. That's by far the main issue this season, our head coach isn't performing the way you would expect any decent(not great) head coach would.

Now when it comes to reaching an elite level, the club absolutely need to also improve its structure and that improvement would include expecting significantly more from the head coach/manager when it comes to on-field performances of the team and individual players.


Edit: Also on paper who has the better team? Manchester United, Aston Villa, Newcastle, Copenhage or Galatasaray? Who was seen as the better squad in August?

I think United spends elite level funds and has
Elite level expectations with a squad that’s simply not elite level. We have a mish mash of players quality players and players just not good enough and players who have not grown up in an elite squad so just don’t know how to take things to the next level.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Don’t ever compare SAF to ETH. If you have no issues with how WW was used, you are totally blind. You may well call ETH a Messiah and we will be done with it. No need to discuss when it’s a religious matter.

I wasn’t comparing him in any other way than how they used players in different positions. Sure carrick and fletcher were playing CB in a game together.

I have an issue that Weghorst was the best the club could offer a man United manager as a starting striker. Maybe have a think about that,

 

[lex talionis]

The decision to sack ten Hag would be an easy one if a suitable upgrade were available.

What's the latest thinking on who, realistically, would be that upgrade? If anyone here is on board with Southgate or Potter, please speak up.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

With Nagelsmann signing a new contract I think I’d give him another season . Potter , Southgate and De Zerbi make me want to stop watching football

If they’re the only 3 options then I agree but I don’t buy it. I think Ineos can get someone like Enrique. Huge club in an exciting new era

Posts like this really crack me up when we're getting humiliated on a bi-weekly basis under Hag, virtually all season.

Hire one of those 3 and I guarantee you that by the end of their tenure you’ll be wishing we hadn’t

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

Conversely, I see posters who seemingly think said dysfunctional structure means you can’t reasonably expect anything from Ten Hag, and that he should be absolved of any blame. But in order to absolve him of blame for our transfer dealings, you have to assume he’s like my four-year old daughter feeding us birthday wishes with zero notion of what anything costs, or how much money my wife and I have, or if a trampoline can even fit in her tiny room. And that’s not to mention our tactics and what’s going on in training, the fact that he’s getting less out of the squad than the admittedly modest sum of its parts, showing no progress, only regression.

Id originally responded earlier and my post got accidentally deleted.

Why are referencing other posters, what’s that got to do with what I’ve posted ? Where have I said everything is ok with ETH?

Id originally responded earlier and my post got accidentally deleted.

 

[fe33er]

Regarding the poll.

No. Once the manager tries telling me to see things which are not there or happening (i.e he’s talking a load of rubbish) then he’s lost me. “We played well” no we didn’t stop lying and stop trying to gaslight us. His tactics are allover the place he’s done.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

The decision to sack ten Hag would be an easy one if a suitable upgrade were available.

What's the latest thinking on who, realistically, would be that upgrade? If anyone here is on board with Southgate or Potter, please speak up.

I don’t buy that Potter and co would be our only options. I think people would be surprised at the names who came up if Ineos leaked every manager who has declared an interest in the role

 

[JPRouve]

I think United spends elite level funds and has
Elite level expectations with a squad that’s simply not elite level. We have a mish mash of players quality players and players just not good enough and players who have not grown up in an elite squad so just don’t know how to take things to the next level.

That's the entire point of good to elite managers and what separates them from the rest. Elite players and teams don't appear out of nowhere, they are coached and developed in ways that lead to reaching elite level. Most players reach or are at the door of elite level before ever being surrounded by elite players, that's what lead them to their transfer to a big club.

The way some of you talk about these things, you would think that United players and United are completely removed from the Football world. Our manager shouldn't be judged like every other manager and our players are somehow totally different to every other professional footballers including their own selves because none of the things you guys are suggesting apply to the players that we signed when they were with their previous clubs especially CL winners, CL finalists or Euro finalists.

 

[lex talionis]

Potter would be a massive upgrade by virtue of not being a proven failure at United, and he's the worst realistic option (if you dont buy Southgate link as anything more than his agent trying to drum up interest)

Fair enough. I have my doubts, but they are only doubts. I'm not prepared to argue that Potter would necessarily be in over his head at OT, but he clearly was in over his head at Stamford Bridge. It seems so long ago now, but did he even finish one season?

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

No I am getting your point, mine was and is he was heavily involved in the Weghorst deal. It was his idea.



Negotiating is part of it, but giving a manager almost complete control over transfers and allowing them to dictate targets and how long we chase those targets. Then have them dick about all summer waiting on a midfielder who obvisouly wasn't arsed about coming. Show little or no interest in wanting to sign a striker, choosing to rely on a crock and a 37 year old as his option. Only to have them hit the panic button after two opening defeats and want two expensive deadline day signings in Antony and Casemiro for a combined £150m is the bigger issue.

And this problem preceeds Ten Hag to be fair though it's just one of the most glaring examples of why that structure leads to paying way over the odds for average or past it players.

Im not disagreeing with a fair bit of that. Where we seem to differ is the level of responsibility a manager has on transfers.

I would explain how I see things this season and how I view it overall but it seems to enrage people to try and expand on the state of things outside of “ETH is not good enough”. And yet alit of people accept there’s a lot of shA*t before and during his tenure that’s made things harder.

I could list a load of things but it doesn’t seem to matter. There’s plenty of examples of quality managers were teams went to sh*t for different reasons. There’s examples of managers doing well at some clubs and not at others for different reasons.

Im not trying to convince anyone of anything. I don’t actually care if most fans want him gone but I don’t understand why so many fans in here care why some fans are not calling for his head. The glazers don’t listen to us so what we discuss in her makes no difference, so why are people saying stuff like “now wonder uniteds standards have dropped with fans still wanting him”? That makes no sense.

Ironically I feel it’s the relentless focus on managerial turnover that’s been holding us back. If we’d of hired the exact same managers the last 12 years but actually had all things right behind the scenes we would have done far far better. How could we not do better by spending less on players, less on contracts , get more on sales , move on players faster.

 

[lex talionis]

I don’t buy that Potter and co would be our only options. I think people would be surprised at the names who came up if Ineos leaked every manager who has declared an interest in the role

There are undoubtedly some brilliant young managers out there worth the gamble when asked to step up to the largest stage in British football, but who are they?

 

[hobbers]

Fair enough. I have my doubts, but they are only doubts. I'm not prepared to argue that Potter would necessarily be in over his head at OT, but he clearly was in over his head at Stamford Bridge. It seems so long ago now, but did he even finish one season?

No he didn't and he was massively over his head. I wouldnt rate him as a leader of men or motivator at all (especially all that emotional intelligence masters bullshit) but he's a far better coach and tactician than ETH.

But still, even if he's the worst we could do in the summer it'd still be an upgrade.