Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Plant0x84 said:
It still happened! It wasn’t a goal but it was still a shot. What a nonsense. :nono:
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Believe it or not, if the referee stops the play cause of an out, foul, penalty, or whatever, and then some player continues running and scores, it does not count as a goal. It also does not count as a shot.

Same for offside. Whatever happens after offside, nothing counts afterwards.
 
Could be a style for the top of the league but it requires exceptional players in every position.
Young, mobile DM and backline competent with the ball in their feet will do wonders for this system.
Also, needs a killer striker, predator.

This season we just lack the player quality to play the way ETH wants. We are set in a very unforgiving way, every bad pass leads to chance for opponents.

The mistery for me is why does he keep giving Rashford chance after chance.

Anyway, I doubt the next manager after ETH will play the same system.
Inviting pressure in order to create quick transition areas is just too dangerous in a physycal and quick league like the prem.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
to me to you, football we play right now forces teams down to our level in the gutter, and then it’s a street fight.
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we are 6th, 11 points off of 5th with goal difference in overdraft.

the street fighter:

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One thing he deserves credit for is getting us to play without fear.

Yes we may be often shite and even more often chaotic but the players don’t seem to play like they have PTSD any more.
 
Unam333 said:
I agree. I would stick with Ten Hag and give him the first three months of the new season, but I'm in the minority.
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That's just wasting another year. They either believe he's the man for the job and give him another season, or replace him this summer if they don't.
 
What baffles me is his refusal to change the midfield tactics.
Weve had record breaking numbers of chances/shot’s against us due to teams cutting through our open midfield at will in nearly every game but he refuses to change it.
Our build up in possession is similarly odd.
 
Catalandevil said:
ETH is not to blame for any of the last 3 penalties. We were winning with 10 minutes to go, it is normal to make a defensive sub. This year, individual errors have really cost us, both in the league and in Europe.

I still don't think changing the manager will solve our problems. I think we simply need to change our club's culture, and INEOS are the ones who can do that now.
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I would argue he is at fault and it’s a fault that has severely hindered our season and that is his substitutions, taking off garnacho killed the energy in the stadium we dropped back and the pressure built, he done the same with hoijlund in the champions league, it’s constant bad subs at the worst possible timing.
 
Nas-JR said:
I'm likely to be completely wrong here, but seeing klopp's post match got me thinking. Klopp mentioned that he went crazy on the touchline because his back 4 dropped deep, causing a lot of space in the hole which lead to an attack and subsequent panic in his defence. This is essentially our most glaring problem throughout the season in that our front 5 almost ALWAYS press high all game and our back 5 ALWAYS drop. It's the same issue described by klopp but we see it for majority of games.

This lack of compactness between front and back is the root cause of all our problems; the non-existent midfield, the high number of shots conceded, the high number of cutback goals conceded, the high number of corners conceded as our back 4 is isolated in a deep block, causing many one on ones which lead to corners, even the high number of injuries due to recovery runs. I would even argue its the reason why casimero and bruno lose the ball so much because when we do recover the ball we are in our final third making the ball over the top harder to execute.

Pretty much all our regular cbs this year prefer the deep/mid block and are not front foot defenders. This includes varane, maguire, evans, and lindelof. Even if instructed to play a high starting position they'll revert to type as the game progresses. At the same time Ten Hag has clearly doubled down with a high block front 5 instead of compromising like last year because he knows this is how we should play long term and recognises that the players need to learn how to play this way and to get used to the intensity. Combine both these issues and we get this disjointed version that executes a simultaneous low block back 5 and a high block front 5. Add to that how utterly average our defenders are at passing from the back and how lacking in athleticism our midfielders and all the above issues are compounded.

What does all this mean? Well maybe, just maybe, the growing pains this team is going through (VERY Painful ones I might add) will have a positive impact long term? I mean we've played a low to mid block for the longest of times so could we really expect the way our players have been conditioned to play to change overnight? CLEARLY not. This would explain why players like rashford are struggling so badly; he lacks the intensity and intelligence to press and is lazy off the ball, but has importantly always played a different way and can't handle this year's transition.

What if, instead of getting rid of ten hag at the end of the season and start yet another 3 year project, we instead keep him, and supplement the squad with players suitable for this way of playing. I have no doubt ten hag would play the exact same system next year. If, say, we bring in two athletic cms ( as pool did with macallister and zsabozlai), a front foot cb to play along matrinez as rcb, and we get shaw back (or even malacia) and a forward in the mould of tony who can harry and press well, I think the system would come together much better and we would see far more cohesion in how we play. I look back at how badly arteta's arsenal played when the players he had didn't suit the high intensity football they now play and think maybe this applies to our situation too,

This clearly goes against conventional cafe wisdom and could all be wishful thinking but food for thought I guess.
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Well said.

Progress isn't linear. Fergie went 12th - 2nd - 12th in his first 3 seasons.

Ten hag needs to be allowed to bring in better defenders and blood through more prospects.

Garnacho and Mainoo handled superbly. Got a tune of Dalot and AwB now too. People forget how bad they were on ten hags arrival. Look at Maguire now too.
 
Revan said:
Believe it or not, if the referee stops the play cause of an out, foul, penalty, or whatever, and then some player continues running and scores, it does not count as a goal. It also does not count as a shot.

Same for offside. Whatever happens after offside, nothing counts afterwards.
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But the offside isn’t called until after the ball hits the net. Smarty pants!
 
Unam333 said:
I agree. I would stick with Ten Hag and give him the first three months of the new season, but I'm in the minority.
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Problem is the club can't go into a season with the mentality of "ah we'll give him 3 months and see how he does". If that's the thinking then club wouldn't really have much faith in him really. So once they realize that there's only one choice to make. You can't waste a season and risk having to change manager mid season.

Come July the club have to either back him (new contract) or sack him. At this stage I reckon it would take a miracle end to the season for the club to decide on the former.
 
SteveCoppellFan said:
I was very ETH in but i am starting to drift away from that opinion.

A proper manager will find a way to get performances out of his squad even when injuries etc kick in.

Just feel with have been awful all season.

I remember going into the first game of the season vrs Wolves full of optimism and thinking we could really kick on this year, I still remember how shocked I was as to how poor we played that day.

We really have not improved since that day.

I do think the squad has way too many average / poor players and that really has hindered him, most of them are just players that we just could not get rid of and he's been stuck with them.

But a top manager needs to find a way to get top performances from average players if needs be and he has not done that at all.

A part of me thinks he should get one more year with better players and see how it goes but a bigger part of me thinks we would be better getting a new manager go with these new players.

He also talks a load of nonsense in his press conferences, sounds like a man talking BS to save his job, its not a good look.
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You've summarised my point of view almost exactly.

I don't want to be ETH-out. But I watch all United games and a lot of other PL games, and we're one of the most disorganised, dysfunctional teams in the league. Nearly every team has a structure, game plan and the players all seem to know their job. We're always all over the shop. We have no control in any of our games, it's always a case of hoping someone produces a "moment" and our gk/ defence don't make a f**k up.

Injuries can't explain all of it.

The only reason we're as high as 6th is that unlike most PL teams, we have players who can produce moments of individual magic that can dig us out of holes and earn undeserved wins.

What I'd like to hear from the ETH backers, genuinely, is what is it they see in our performances and development that gives them such faith in the man? Because I ain't seeing it.
 
Plant0x84 said:
But the offside isn’t called until after the ball hits the net. Smarty pants!
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Everything that happens until when the offside happens (not when the referee whistles) does not count.

Similarly, if you score a goal, but VAR overrules if for a foul on the other side of the pitch, the goal does not count. Neither does the shot.
 
Plant0x84 said:
Sod off being sarcastic. I’m old and grumpy tonight and a disallowed goal should still count as a shot.
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Why are you grumpy tonight? It was a very ropey performance in the first half especially but a draw was a lot better than I expected and a lot better than it could have been and could be very costly for Liverpool.
 
RORY65 said:
Why are you grumpy tonight? It was a very ropey performance in the first half especially but a draw was a lot better than I expected and a lot better than it could have been and could be very costly for Liverpool.
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My kids mostly. :lol:
I am conflicted about that game though. If it wasn’t for AWB’s stupid lunge…. Kobbies goal deserved to be the winner too!
 
The fact is that the 2-2 draw flatters us and our league position flatters us. The players are clearly giving it their all except Rashford but there is no structure in the team, no identity, no style of play. We rely too much on moments in attack and defence as well as on opponents not taking their chances. The problem has been pointed out repeatedly by everyone and their dog; there is a chasm between the attack and the defence allowing opponents free runs towards our goal.
Yet there seams to be no change on the pitch.

Ten Hag says he wants us to be the best transition team but surely he doesn't mean that we want to be the easiest team to be transitioned against which is what it looks like.

The apologists say he needs better players but surely if he was a good manager, he'd adopt to his team first.

In conclusion, I think he simply isn't good enough to take Man utd back to the perch. He comes across as a good guy and I really wish he'd succeed.
 
Toshey said:
Could be a style for the top of the league but it requires exceptional players in every position.
Young, mobile DM and backline competent with the ball in their feet will do wonders for this system.
Also, needs a killer striker, predator.

This season we just lack the player quality to play the way ETH wants. We are set in a very unforgiving way, every bad pass leads to chance for opponents.

The mistery for me is why does he keep giving Rashford chance after chance.

Anyway, I doubt the next manager after ETH will play the same system.
Inviting pressure in order to create quick transition areas is just too dangerous in a physycal and quick league like the prem.
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What successful team has ever played this style?
 
Plant0x84 said:
My kids mostly. :lol:
I am conflicted about that game though. If it wasn’t for AWB’s stupid lunge…. Kobbies goal deserved to be the winner too!
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Fair, I forgot that people have lives outside of United games.
 
Nas-JR said:
What if, instead of getting rid of ten hag at the end of the season and start yet another 3 year project, we instead keep him, and supplement the squad with players suitable for this way of playing. I have no doubt ten hag would play the exact same system next year. If, say, we bring in two athletic cms ( as pool did with macallister and zsabozlai), a front foot cb to play along matrinez as rcb, and we get shaw back (or even malacia) and a forward in the mould of tony who can harry and press well, I think the system would come together much better and we would see far more cohesion in how we play. I look back at how badly arteta's arsenal played when the players he had didn't suit the high intensity football they now play and think maybe this applies to our situation too,

This clearly goes against conventional cafe wisdom and could all be wishful thinking but food for thought I guess.
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I get what you're saying but I just worry the club might not have the means to finance this or the inclination to sell some of its star players like Arsenal did.

People don't want to talk about it because they want EtH gone which i can understand but i'd like to see an explanation of how this system could work in theory with the right players and who those right players are. It seems so obvious that the team lacks a more physical presence and yet is relying on players that are either very injury prone (Shaw, Varane) or players that simply don't press very well or lack mobility (Casemiro the latter, Rashford the former).

Getting a midfielder who could dictate the tempo and know when to slow things down would be good too.
 
Plant0x84 said:
It’s stupid. Modern football, the rules, the referees and VAR are all stupid.
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It's not stupid it makes perfect sense. If play is called back for offside a shot technically didn't happen.

It's just essentially going back in time to when the offside happened. Anything after is irrelevant.
 
Matt851 said:
What successful team has ever played this style?
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I asked this and someone said the Bayern side with Ribery and Robben was a good example. I remember it being a good side but i can't remember the set up too well.

It's not the same thing besides the emphasis on counter attack but Jose's Real Madrid side could kill you within a few seconds with their counters. They were lethal at transitions but unlike us I seem to remember them having two holding players in midfield IIRC.
 
Matt851 said:
What successful team has ever played this style?
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The closest I can think of is Monaco in 16/17 and to be honest it's a bit disrespectful to that team to compare them with this United side.

That was a very good team, though they did seem a bit chaotic (City tie in particular which they won).
 
sugar_kane said:
One thing he deserves credit for is getting us to play without fear.

Yes we may be often shite and even more often chaotic but the players don’t seem to play like they have PTSD any more.
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That is true, his horrendous tactics have definitely pushed us towards the point of desperation where we will play Maguire up front and Bruno Fernandes as a centre half.
 
sugar_kane said:
One thing he deserves credit for is getting us to play without fear.

Yes we may be often shite and even more often chaotic but the players don’t seem to play like they have PTSD any more.
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Yep, it's balls out football.
 
sugar_kane said:
One thing he deserves credit for is getting us to play without fear.

Yes we may be often shite and even more often chaotic but the players don’t seem to play like they have PTSD any more.
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Agree with this, seem to remember Klopps’ second or third season being chaotic, just before it all clicked.

Granted, I am not convinced we are about to click, but i still see enough there to maintain some optimism!
 
I'm having a bit of a change of heart about this. Up until last week I thought he should be sacked, but I'm reaching a point where I'm not sure anymore.

I just keep asking myself some simple question, how different would our season be if Rashford didn't have this nightmare of a season, if Injuries weren't that horrible, if we never bought Antony, if Maino was available from the beginning, If Hojlund found his form earlier, and the list can go on. It's clear to me that as far as ETH is concerned, a lot of things went wrong. I'm not saying he isn't to blame for anything, but I just don't know anymore. Any new manager will probably have a better group of players/More luck than ETH that's for sure.
 
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