It upsets them because a lot have been more than happy to ignore the damage the Glazers have done to the club and make out that we're only this bad because Ten Hag is a terrible manager.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
- Status
It upsets them because a lot have been more than happy to ignore the damage the Glazers have done to the club and make out that we're only this bad because Ten Hag is a terrible manager.
I'm likely to be completely wrong here, but seeing klopp's post match got me thinking. Klopp mentioned that he went crazy on the touchline because his back 4 dropped deep, causing a lot of space in the hole which lead to an attack and subsequent panic in his defence. This is essentially our most glaring problem throughout the season in that our front 5 almost ALWAYS press high all game and our back 5 ALWAYS drop. It's the same issue described by klopp but we see it for majority of games.
This lack of compactness between front and back is the root cause of all our problems; the non-existent midfield, the high number of shots conceded, the high number of cutback goals conceded, the high number of corners conceded as our back 4 is isolated in a deep block, causing many one on ones which lead to corners, even the high number of injuries due to recovery runs. I would even argue its the reason why casimero and bruno lose the ball so much because when we do recover the ball we are in our final third making the ball over the top harder to execute.
Pretty much all our regular cbs this year prefer the deep/mid block and are not front foot defenders. This includes varane, maguire, evans, and lindelof. Even if instructed to play a high starting position they'll revert to type as the game progresses. At the same time Ten Hag has clearly doubled down with a high block front 5 instead of compromising like last year because he knows this is how we should play long term and recognises that the players need to learn how to play this way and to get used to the intensity. Combine both these issues and we get this disjointed version that executes a simultaneous low block back 5 and a high block front 5. Add to that how utterly average our defenders are at passing from the back and how lacking in athleticism our midfielders and all the above issues are compounded.
What does all this mean? Well maybe, just maybe, the growing pains this team is going through (VERY Painful ones I might add) will have a positive impact long term? I mean we've played a low to mid block for the longest of times so could we really expect the way our players have been conditioned to play to change overnight? CLEARLY not. This would explain why players like rashford are struggling so badly; he lacks the intensity and intelligence to press and is lazy off the ball, but has importantly always played a different way and can't handle this year's transition.
What if, instead of getting rid of ten hag at the end of the season and start yet another 3 year project, we instead keep him, and supplement the squad with players suitable for this way of playing. I have no doubt ten hag would play the exact same system next year. If, say, we bring in two athletic cms ( as pool did with macallister and zsabozlai), a front foot cb to play along matrinez as rcb, and we get shaw back (or even malacia) and a forward in the mould of tony who can harry and press well, I think the system would come together much better and we would see far more cohesion in how we play. I look back at how badly arteta's arsenal played when the players he had didn't suit the high intensity football they now play and think maybe this applies to our situation too,
This clearly goes against conventional cafe wisdom and could all be wishful thinking but food for thought I guess.
This lack of compactness between front and back is the root cause of all our problems; the non-existent midfield, the high number of shots conceded, the high number of cutback goals conceded, the high number of corners conceded as our back 4 is isolated in a deep block, causing many one on ones which lead to corners, even the high number of injuries due to recovery runs. I would even argue its the reason why casimero and bruno lose the ball so much because when we do recover the ball we are in our final third making the ball over the top harder to execute.
Pretty much all our regular cbs this year prefer the deep/mid block and are not front foot defenders. This includes varane, maguire, evans, and lindelof. Even if instructed to play a high starting position they'll revert to type as the game progresses. At the same time Ten Hag has clearly doubled down with a high block front 5 instead of compromising like last year because he knows this is how we should play long term and recognises that the players need to learn how to play this way and to get used to the intensity. Combine both these issues and we get this disjointed version that executes a simultaneous low block back 5 and a high block front 5. Add to that how utterly average our defenders are at passing from the back and how lacking in athleticism our midfielders and all the above issues are compounded.
What does all this mean? Well maybe, just maybe, the growing pains this team is going through (VERY Painful ones I might add) will have a positive impact long term? I mean we've played a low to mid block for the longest of times so could we really expect the way our players have been conditioned to play to change overnight? CLEARLY not. This would explain why players like rashford are struggling so badly; he lacks the intensity and intelligence to press and is lazy off the ball, but has importantly always played a different way and can't handle this year's transition.
What if, instead of getting rid of ten hag at the end of the season and start yet another 3 year project, we instead keep him, and supplement the squad with players suitable for this way of playing. I have no doubt ten hag would play the exact same system next year. If, say, we bring in two athletic cms ( as pool did with macallister and zsabozlai), a front foot cb to play along matrinez as rcb, and we get shaw back (or even malacia) and a forward in the mould of tony who can harry and press well, I think the system would come together much better and we would see far more cohesion in how we play. I look back at how badly arteta's arsenal played when the players he had didn't suit the high intensity football they now play and think maybe this applies to our situation too,
This clearly goes against conventional cafe wisdom and could all be wishful thinking but food for thought I guess.
Ask your defenders to defend against 30+ shots a game which naturally means quick bursts and stretching trying to block shots or close someone down and we wonder how they keep getting hurt. Footballing malpractice currently. Nevermind the fact that we are playing a defensive mid who is either injured or in need of a wheelchair. Maguire or Kambwala will surely be injured within a week or two.
So his contract expires end of next season. I don’t see a club with a serious structure go into a season with a manager running down his contract - it doesn’t look like they trust him for a start and sends the wrong message to everyone. Suppose he turns it around and we start playing this style he insists we should be seeing - he could walk away and then we are shafted.
West Ham have highlighted how poor a position this is to be in this season, I don’t see us following suit.
Therefore this summer he either gets the sack or a new contract. Can there be another route?
West Ham have highlighted how poor a position this is to be in this season, I don’t see us following suit.
Therefore this summer he either gets the sack or a new contract. Can there be another route?
Any system that results in a player like Mainoo only having 14 passes is not a system worth continuing. The guy is clearly a player who benefits from tight interplay among teammates and he is completely isolated in the middle of the field asked to make long sprints which is the one thing he is not good at. I get we have injuries, but maybe part of the reason for them is how we are asking our players to play.
He gets neither?
Playing two RBs as LB has cost us two penalties in two consecutive games. Their positioning and mind to body connection is thrown off, making them do stupid decisions.
In fairness he’s a bit limited with anyone to play LB. The only alternative was a youngster with no PL experience - could have ruined him.
How?
The back four is something everyone at the club has to live with until the summer. Once you remove Martinez is basically the pre-EtH back four just 2 years older.
Eriksen and Casemiro improved the midfield last season but they have aged since and taken a step back.
There is no DM or CB fit at the club who can improve things. Simple.
It's annoying and frustrating but the season is closing to an end and then the problems can be looked at.
Eriksen and Casemiro improved the midfield last season but they have aged since and taken a step back.
There is no DM or CB fit at the club who can improve things. Simple.
It's annoying and frustrating but the season is closing to an end and then the problems can be looked at.
Two things can be true at the same time. However, this notion that the Glazers are affecting us on the pitch needs to stop. It's truly illogical. There are far worse teams in the league who do not concede 20+ shots per game. He's the one in charge of setting up the team. If this were any other club you were watching, you would have been asking why he hadn't been sacked. Yet United have this thing where players are blamed and called stupid despite constantly bailing these managers out. You can't set up our team to fail consistently and expect players to be coming out of it shining. The gaps are too big, the rotations around the back are too much and its quite clear our attacking play throughout his tenure has been atrocious. I'm sorry, you can't convince me that these players who can produce consistent moments of magic in attack can't set out to fulfill an attacking plan that consistently produces chances. Ten Haag simply isn't good. We're in April now. We've played like this all year. It's not acceptable. The irony of this is, the damage the Glazers have done has been in not stepping in and being more active, leaving the footballing side of the club in the hands of the manager. Not sacking managers earlier is actually one of the things we've done over the years that has hurt us. We've essentially told players that their play and their careers don't matter regardless of how poor the managers they have to deal with have been. We don't have strong standards anymore and this has allowed poor managers to stay on at the club and take stupid tactical risks without needing to perform on the pitch. Ten Haag's suicidal 4141 is in line with LVG's 352 for me. The difference being that he's been so clueless that he hasn't even bothered to change it.
That doesn’t work mate, too many people on here regurgitating the Sky Sports / Pundits narrative about shots conceded or xG, or some other tom kite because they lack the wit to interpret what they see with their own eyes.
Instead they consume the latest hot take du jour and repeat ad-infinitum .
We were broke when Erik took over, and are clearly on a long-term journey to correct 10 years of mis-management. I don’t know if he is the messiah, but I’d rather try and get somewhere methodically than throw enough sh*t and hope some of it sticks.
Eat shit Weetabix-Teeth!
A draw is more than I expected. A come back and more or less controlling the game until the more defensive subs was also answering a lot of critics who said Ten Hag doesn't know when to shut up shop.
But, as per usual, when he follows up on that, some here just find new things to criticise. Indeed, if you do not want to be convinced Ten Hag might not be so bad as you think he is, why spend time in this here forum?
With this squad, the form run, how come a draw at LFC does not make you happy?
But, as per usual, when he follows up on that, some here just find new things to criticise. Indeed, if you do not want to be convinced Ten Hag might not be so bad as you think he is, why spend time in this here forum?
With this squad, the form run, how come a draw at LFC does not make you happy?
Correct.
Playing out of position is not what caused them to make stupid decisions, that's just these players, they are prone to making stupid decisions when on their own side.
You let a player into the box and you are asking for trouble, get wrong side or dive in and you risk giving away a penalty. That's what's happened the last 2 games.
Its just not the result. Its the way we play which doesn’t give me any confidence that things will improve next season if we stick with him.
Some decisions are also baffling, like why Amad didnt see a single minute in last 2 games despite scoring the winner against Liverpool in FA cup
Some decisions are also baffling, like why Amad didnt see a single minute in last 2 games despite scoring the winner against Liverpool in FA cup
A couple of decent games against a team that almost always shits the bed at OT doesn't answer his critics.
Will a couple of good games in the rest of the season from Rashford answer his critics?
If we play very well (I don't even hope for wins anymore) in every game left except Arsenal at home and the FA cup final, then ETH will rightly get credit. If we roll up and get walloped by Bournemouth again, then these famous draws and one win against Liverpool will have meant feck all in answering his critics.
A lot of words to argue against something I hadn't said.
I think this job is too big for him, but he's still a decent manager.
There are people who want him to fail after he's gone because they've underpinned every criticism they've had of him with the idea that he is solely to blame for the state of the club, which simply isn't true.
I don't think he's going to Italy, Germany, wherever, and sweeping the league year after year, and I don't expect we'll see him lifting a Champions League, but at the same time, I wouldn't be overly surprised to see him enjoy some success away from Manchester United.
Can’t trust him in the transfer market..bought afew duds and that was always gonna cost him his job.
What exactly did you see on the pitch that you think should convince people that EtH is the man for the job? First half, we were nowhere to be seen and lucky to be just one goal down.
Second half, we scored a couple of worldies but were still getting countered three against five.
He went defensive but he removed one of the most potent threats. There were other ways he could have made us defensively solid without losing the attacking threat (for e.g., sub Casamerio and Hojlund).
If you think this performance, or the performance against Brentford or Chelsea are a sustainable way to build something meaningful, then you are deluding yourself.
I think he seems a decent bloke and the criticism gets a bit much when he's called a "wanker" as one of our fans has said in here today.
However, he's absolutely failed this season and I don't see any logic with sticking with him beyond the summer. We may mess up our next appointment, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep an underperforming manager. It feels surreal that 3 or 4 years ago we were talking about only being good in moments, yet nothing has changed in that respect.
Last season was definitely a passable first season and we actually looked pretty good at times. It feels like it's all been downhill since the LC Final, though.
However, he's absolutely failed this season and I don't see any logic with sticking with him beyond the summer. We may mess up our next appointment, but that shouldn't be a reason to keep an underperforming manager. It feels surreal that 3 or 4 years ago we were talking about only being good in moments, yet nothing has changed in that respect.
Last season was definitely a passable first season and we actually looked pretty good at times. It feels like it's all been downhill since the LC Final, though.
In a world where everything needs a tactical system and every fan knows all the buzzwords and has all the stats, there’s something glorious about how we play at the moment. We’ve had some awful decisions against us and are lacking in key areas of the pitch but the chuckle brothers, to me to you, football we play right now forces teams down to our level in the gutter, and then it’s a street fight.
Outrageous hate?
Take it down a notch there chief. I don't think he's received that much personal stick at all. Compared to some of the vitriol directed at Louis, Jose and Ole. He's actually had it easy on here.
We don't win as often as I'd like but at least the games are a laugh. That counts for a lot. City are the best team in the world but it's like watching paint dry.
I kind of agree, it is never dull of late…but it’s also ridiculous and unsustainable and so so stressful to watch
This is where the intelligent guys that Ineos are bringing in will hopefully be able to decide if Ten Hag just needs another push and a bit more help in the transfer market, along with some more time to implement whatever it is we are going through so much pain for this season, or if it's a lost cause and we need a change.
Wouldn't be surprised either way tbh.
Top Red over here
I don't know how anyone can enjoy watching us. I suppose neutrals can enjoy watching our games but as a fan, each game I watch just confirms how far off we are from competing. I see holes in our team, structure and players all through the game.
We just look like a team getting by on a game by game basis. It's so scrappy and chaotic and it's been like this all season.
Ole was called a PE teacher as a way of degrading his credentials as our manager but even he never had the team setup anywhere near this bad.
We just look like a team getting by on a game by game basis. It's so scrappy and chaotic and it's been like this all season.
Ole was called a PE teacher as a way of degrading his credentials as our manager but even he never had the team setup anywhere near this bad.
Quite similar according to that
Correct. We didn't deserve it either. We played chaotic football and created nothing up until our first shot on goal after 50 minutes which came from a mistake and ended up a goal. Just moments later Nunes could have easily scored to take the lead again.
We had zero shots on goal at home at half time, Liverpool had 15.
We stole a draw with moments not tactics, playing chaotic rubbish football again. Nothing has changed.
This. Its baffling.
Revisionism really. The games against Liverpool have been a laugh.
Those and a handful of 3-4s that are almost always in the other teams favour.
Vast majority of our games are like the 2-1 win vs Luton, 1-1 vs Brentford and 1-2 vs Fulham. The football is shite, we create feck all, ship 20-30 shots and deserve to lose by 3 or 4.
It'd be utterly unthinkable to extend the contract.
Even if they decide to carry on with him, there's utterly no risk of him going to a rival, so no need to renew unless we put an absolutely ridiculous long run of superb displays in.
11 points I think, from both 4th and 5th. Truly horrendous season, and you have to wonder how such a failure could be rewarded with another season. At a club considered one of the biggest clubs on the planet. Not to mention how we went out of the Champions League, in a group that consisted of Copenhagen and Galatasaray.
11 points from 5th. But now only 10 points from 13th. Progress.
2 more defeats and 10 fewer goals scored then Chelsea.
Chelsea have scored 10 more than us with a front 3 of Jackson, Sterling and Mudryk........
Chelsea have scored 10 more than us with a front 3 of Jackson, Sterling and Mudryk........
Fulham and Brentford games at home really killed us and stuck in my mind we don't have what it takes this year.
That's not Chelsea's front 3 though is it. Palmer is definitely the RW.
- Status