Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[crossy1686]

I keep seeing stuff about the same players not putting the effort in, they caused the sacking of ole, that we shouldn’t sack ETH until they are gone.

but, aside from Dalot, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Bruno and Rashford it’s a new bunch of his players. I’m discounting martial because he’s never bloody fit.

Maguire has actually stood up to be counted this season, Dalot has improved, my personal opinion is that AWB has too but also lots of injuries. Lindelof the usual season on season efforts from him. So realistically we are looking at Rashford and possibly Bruno with the latter being inconsistent rather than lazy.

I don’t think it’s right to always go back to it’s the players fault. 1 player seems to be a massive lazy git but then again we don’t know what individual instructions are being given.

People blaming the players are doing so with an agenda, they are under the impression the manager is being hamstrung by them and if they were to be replaced the manager would be successful. However, it's also the manager who got them playing really well last season and nothing to do with the players, they were not happy about winning games the entire time but Ten Hag dragged them kicking and screaming to cup finals and CL football.

Once you've 'picked a side' it's hard to be reasonable any more. The reason the manager gets backed is because they simply hate the players and it gives them free reign to talk down the players they don't like, but not the manager's new signings of course, they just need time.

 

[Shinjch]

I keep seeing stuff about the same players not putting the effort in, they caused the sacking of ole, that we shouldn’t sack ETH until they are gone.

but, aside from Dalot, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Bruno and Rashford it’s a new bunch of his players. I’m discounting martial because he’s never bloody fit.

Maguire has actually stood up to be counted this season, Dalot has improved, my personal opinion is that AWB has too but also lots of injuries. Lindelof the usual season on season efforts from him. So realistically we are looking at Rashford and possibly Bruno with the latter being inconsistent rather than lazy.

I don’t think it’s right to always go back to it’s the players fault. 1 player seems to be a massive lazy git but then again we don’t know what individual instructions are being given.

There is also Varane, Shaw and McTominay that could be added. None of which I would be in a massive hurry to keep at the moment, and two of which are massively overpaid for what they consistently deliver. Getting the players who are paid far too much for what their output is will be key in resetting the culture at the club and in the dressing room. That they added a year to Lindelof's contract doesn't bode well for me, I think they did the same with Wan Bissaka? I don't see the benefit to the club.

 

[VP89]

There is also Varane, Shaw and McTominay that could be added. None of which I would be in a massive hurry to keep at the moment, and two of which are massively overpaid for what they consistently deliver. Getting the players who are paid far too much for what their output is will be key in resetting the culture at the club and in the dressing room. That they added a year to Lindelof's contract doesn't bode well for me, I think they did the same with Wan Bissaka? I don't see the benefit to the club.

I know it's big wages but I really like Varane for us. He's so cool and composed, calming at the back and he's stayed a tad fitter than I expected.

If we moved on Lindelof & Maguire, brought in Tosin on a free + say Todibo - we'd have CB choices including Tosin, Todibo, Licha, Varane, (Evans). I suppose we could move on Varane for Branthwaite if Saudi paid good money.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

There is also Varane, Shaw and McTominay that could be added. None of which I would be in a massive hurry to keep at the moment, and two of which are massively overpaid for what they consistently deliver. Getting the players who are paid far too much for what their output is will be key in resetting the culture at the club and in the dressing room. That they added a year to Lindelof's contract doesn't bode well for me, I think they did the same with Wan Bissaka? I don't see the benefit to the club.

Problem with taking up extra year options is if someone actually fancies buying them, also one year of contract what sort of price would you get for them. Not every team is run as stupidly as ours.

 

[crossy1686]

I know it's big wages but I really like Varane for us. He's so cool and composed, calming at the back and he's stayed a tad fitter than I expected.

I like him also but like you said, his wages are a massive concern considering he misses a third of the season every season. He really has to play almost every week to be a top earner, and his recent concussion comments have got me very concerned about his state of mind and playing at this level.

 

[JPRouve]

Absolutely my views are what they are due to feelings, none of us are on the training ground every day and seeing the interactions that go on to lead to the outcomes. Those feelings have been informed by what I have seen going around the club for the last number of years, but all we have on the matter are feelings over facts really.

My feeling is that the culture in the dressing room has been rotten for years and years now, and we won't get anywhere until that is turned around. Hopefully the next manager we get is elite, but even if he is I don't think that we will then be on a linear path to titles again, I think there will be ups and downs for a few years before we get that culture in the dressing room right.

But your feelings don't align with logic. Whether we are talking about the fact that we are a team between CL and EL which has nothing to do with being mentally fragile and also because your feelings rely on very different groups of people being particularly irrational.

The correct answer is generally the simplest and most logical. A team that is expected to finish in spots that either lead to being the last team to qualify for the CL or the first team to qualify for the EL, will some years be in the CL and others in the EL. You would need to be in a different tier in order to either be always out of the CL or always out of the EL. And that's due to a combination of the quality of our squad and the quality of our managers, it's not based on either deciding to flick a switch and be good enough managers or players depending on the team's CL status.

 

[Shinjch]

I know it's big wages but I really like Varane for us. He's so cool and composed, calming at the back and he's stayed a tad fitter than I expected.

I don't dislike him, but he would need to be taking a big pay cut to stay I would have thought. You just can't be giving 300k a week to a player that you can't build around due to fitness issues. His track record is what it is.

Problem with taking up extra year options is if someone actually fancies buying them, also one year of contract what sort of price would you get for them. Not every team is run as stupidly as ours.

I think we are in agreement? There will be no queue of top clubs waiting to pay Lindelof and Wan Bissaka what we are paying them on their current contracts. I see zero chance we are getting fees for them in the summer, hopefully I am proven wrong, but that is my feeling.

 

[crossy1686]

Problem with taking up extra year options is if someone actually fancies buying them, also one year of contract what sort of price would you get for them. Not every team is run as stupidly as ours.

No one is paying a decent fee and matching the wages we're paying players that haven't done anything in their entire time here.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I’ve forgotten that

Thankfully I missed the 7-0 and have never seen a single goal from the game. I can just pretend it never happened

 

[VP89]

I don't dislike him, but he would need to be taking a big pay cut to stay I would have thought. You just can't be giving 300k a week to a player that you can't build around due to fitness issues. His track record is what it is.

I have a man crush on him, so I'm probably not being reasonable

 

[Shinjch]

But your feelings don't align with logic. Whether we are talking about the fact that we are a team between CL and EL which has nothing to do with being mentally fragile and also because your feelings rely on very different groups of people being particularly irrational.

The correct answer is generally the simplest and most logical. A team that is expected to finish in spots that either lead to being the last team to qualify for the CL or the first team to qualify for the EL, will some years be in the CL and others in the EL. You would need to be in a different tier in order to either be always out of the CL or always out of the EL. And that's due to a combination of the quality of our squad and the quality of our managers, it's not based on either deciding to flick a switch and be good enough managers or players depending on the team's CL status.

Just from watching the team every week my feeling is that they are mentally fragile, do you not think they could improve in that regard? My feeling on their mental fragility definitely aligns with logic to me. Even in the games that we win there are moments of total lack of composure and collapses. Of course it isn't the only reason why we are where we are, but a team isn't going to get proper consistency of performance without being more robust in mentality and character.

There are likely tens and tens of factors that are leading to the underperformance this season. I am not saying that it is purely down to one thing or the other, just mentioning things that will need to be improved upon if we are to get back to being a top performing team. Just as changing manager won't turn us into a proper team overnight either.

 

[Lash]

Think ETH needed to be here with the right structure already in place. That is not his fault. Trouble is we could keep him and see what happens, but how long with it take to get everything up and running. I know we keep harping on about City, but they got the structure sorted ready for Pep coming in, so he could more or less hit the ground running.

But like with @sugar_kane says, changing multiple things at once doesn't really help you find the real issue. City went through loads of iterations though Mancini, Pellegrini and then pep went through signing a load of players to get the right ones. There were always jokes on the defence spending of City was bigger than that of the DRC.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Just from watching the team every week my feeling is that they are mentally fragile, do you not think they could improve in that regard? My feeling on their mental fragility definitely aligns with logic to me. Even in the games that we win there are moments of total lack of composure and collapses. Of course it isn't the only reason why we are where we are, but a team isn't going to get proper consistency of performance without being more robust in mentality and character.

There are likely tens and tens of factors that are leading to the underperformance this season. I am not saying that it is purely down to one thing or the other, just mentioning things that will need to be improved upon if we are to get back to being a top performing team. Just as changing manager won't turn us into a proper team overnight either.

Think a lot are confidence players and that is where good man management comes in.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

But like with @sugar_kane says, changing multiple things at once doesn't really help you find the real issue. City went through loads of iterations though Mancini, Pellegrini and then pep went through signing a load of players to get the right ones. There were always jokes on the defence spending of City was bigger than that of the DRC.

That is where the charges come in isn't it, boosting the sponsorship deals falsely to boost spending power. Us it is we had the spending power just no structure to spend it wisely. The won the title under Mancini didn't they. We had started to go off the rails by then. The spending after the Ronaldo sale apart from RVP was criminal.

 

[Shinjch]

Think a lot are confidence players and that is where good man management comes in.

Absolutely, I wouldn't want to have confidence players on 300k a week though. When you are at that level of salary it should be because you are giving reliable and consistent outputs, and you can dig yourself out of confidence slumps quickly enough. Obviously I would want more from the manager in that regard too though.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Absolutely, I wouldn't want to have confidence players on 300k a week though. When you are at that level of salary it should be because you are giving reliable and consistent outputs, and you can dig yourself out of confidence slumps quickly enough. Obviously I would want more from the manager in that regard too though.

Agree with that. You pay 300k to strong characters not ones who slightest drop in form they go to pieces.

 

[Lash]

That is where the charges come in isn't it, boosting the sponsorship deals falsely to boost spending power. Us it is we had the spending power just no structure to spend it wisely.

Yep, I don't think anyone can argue we've wasted a hell of a lot of time not getting this structure in place. We are where we are now though and are starting for 3 steps back because we failed to address it. Ten Hag could be our Mancini or Pellegrini and we find the next manager who could be the Pep for us. He could end up being the long term manager too, but I think we have to at least give him until the end of his contract.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I know it's big wages but I really like Varane for us. He's so cool and composed, calming at the back and he's stayed a tad fitter than I expected.

I would only keep him on massively reduced wages. I think he'll opt for semi retirement in Saudi on mega money.

 

[JPRouve]

Just from watching the team every week my feeling is that they are mentally fragile, do you not think they could improve in that regard? My feeling on their mental fragility definitely aligns with logic to me. Even in the games that we win there are moments of total lack of composure and collapses. Of course it isn't the only reason why we are where we are, but a team isn't going to get proper consistency of performance without being more robust in mentality and character.

There are likely tens and tens of factors that are leading to the underperformance this season. I am not saying that it is purely down to one thing or the other, just mentioning things that will need to be improved upon if we are to get back to being a top performing team. Just as changing manager won't turn us into a proper team overnight either.

If they were mentally fragile, then no I don't think that you could improve in that regard. And if they were mentally fragile, they wouldn't be a top half PL team, professional Footballers(or any professional athletes) aren't mentally fragile even the ones that at some point may have issues such as Deisler or Enke who are extreme examples, these people aren't mentally fragile, they push themselves beyond stress, injuries, fatigue and fierce competition from teenage as amateurs to the top of their sport.

What I do see is a team that compared to better teams lacks elite technique and elite athleticism, I also see managers that lacks elite tactical and coaching nous. That's why I agree with anyone suggesting that we need to improve the squad where I disagree is with the idea that clearly deficient managers should be excused for illogical reasons or talking about players being lazy or mentally fragile.

I have for years said that our current most important players aren't good enough and put a glass ceiling on this club, those players are Bruno and Rashford, this season I would add Casemiro and Shaw(because he can't stay on the field). But my issue with the manager is that his setup and coaching see us perform like the 10th best team instead of performing like the 5th best team and that's not excusable.

 

[Shinjch]

If they were mentally fragile, then no I don't think that you could improve in that regard. And if they were mentally fragile, they wouldn't be a top half PL team, professional Footballers(or any professional athletes) aren't mentally fragile even the ones that at some point may have issues such as Deisler or Enke who are extreme examples, these people aren't mentally fragile, they push themselves beyond stress, injuries, fatigue and fierce competition from teenage as amateurs to the top of their sport.

What I do see is a team that compared to better teams lacks elite technique and elite athleticism, I also see managers that lacks elite tactical and coaching nous. That's why I agree with anyone suggesting that we need to improve the squad where I disagree is with the idea that clearly deficient managers should be excused for illogical reasons or talking about players being lazy or mentally fragile.

I have for years said that our current most important players aren't good enough and put a glass ceiling on this club, those players are Bruno and Rashford, this season I would add Casemiro and Shaw(because he can't stay on the field). But my issue with the manager is that his setup and coaching see us perform like the 10th best team instead of performing like the 5th best team and that's not excusable.

Of course "mental fragility" is relative, I hope you didn't think that I was comparing these elite atheltes with the mentality of the average pub team player. I believe a lot of them mentality fragile when compared with other teams who are competing for top honours to be clear.

I don't disagree with your post anyway. So much at the club needs fixing.

 

[JPRouve]

Of course "mental fragility" is relative, I hope you didn't think that I was comparing these elite atheltes with the mentality of the average pub team player. I believe a lot of them mentality fragile when compared with other teams who are competing for top honours to be clear.

I don't disagree with your post anyway. So much at the club needs fixing.

The issue is the simple fact that you keep putting it at the top of your list, even if it was relative. But I'm willing to accept after you answered these questions, do you think that our squad is technically and athletically equal to the best teams in the league and the CL? Do you think that our manager is of the same caliber than current elite managers?

 

[Doracle]

If they were mentally fragile, then no I don't think that you could improve in that regard. And if they were mentally fragile, they wouldn't be a top half PL team, professional Footballers(or any professional athletes) aren't mentally fragile even the ones that at some point may have issues such as Deisler or Enke who are extreme examples, these people aren't mentally fragile, they push themselves beyond stress, injuries, fatigue and fierce competition from teenage as amateurs to the top of their sport.

What I do see is a team that compared to better teams lacks elite technique and elite athleticism, I also see managers that lacks elite tactical and coaching nous. That's why I agree with anyone suggesting that we need to improve the squad where I disagree is with the idea that clearly deficient managers should be excused for illogical reasons or talking about players being lazy or mentally fragile.

I have for years said that our current most important players aren't good enough and put a glass ceiling on this club, those players are Bruno and Rashford, this season I would add Casemiro and Shaw(because he can't stay on the field). But my issue with the manager is that his setup and coaching see us perform like the 10th best team instead of performing like the 5th best team and that's not excusable.

Only at United would we have this bizarre situation where we say that the best players are the problem. If we got to a position where we had a CF who scored 25 goals a season and a RW who contributed 30+ GA, had two fullbacks of Shaw’s quality who could stay fit, a Rodri level DM and world class CBs, do you honestly think having Rashford in the side would somehow create a “glass ceiling”?

I’m absolutely convinced that if we got a sensible structure and the correct level of player around him then Rashford would not be “a problem”. I’m less keen on Bruno as a player but he’s also shown that he can do a job when given a more defined role and for Portugal. As such, I’d definitely fix the manager first before making any decision on either.

 

[Shinjch]

The issue is the simple fact that you keep putting it at the top of your list, even if it was relative. But I'm willing to accept after you answered these questions, do you think that our squad is technically and athletically equal to the best teams in the league and the CL? Do you think that our manager is of the same caliber than current elite managers?

I don't think I have made a list, let alone put it at the top of the list. Definitely think it is something worth mentioning though.

Technical and athletic level - The squad is miles off the clubs competing at the top, in this regard. Needs an overhaul.
Manager of same calibre as current elite managers - He certainly hasn't shown it this season, if he is.

 

[Fortitude]

If you want a really wild ride, read your first 5-10 posts in this thread and your last 5-10. It’s like bunnies in meadows into a post-apocalyptic Mad Max wasteland of misery.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

1:20 onwards exactly the same response as Ten Hag.

So if Klopp (who I think we all reluctantly agree knows what he’s doing) suggests that is what has to happen….. maybe…. Just maybe…. Ten Hag might know a thing or two if he’s saying the same sorts of things.

 

[Lash]

Only at United would we have this bizarre situation where we say that the best players are the problem. If we got to a position where we had a CF who scored 25 goals a season and a RW who contributed 30+ GA, had two fullbacks of Shaw’s quality who could stay fit, a Rodri level DM and world class CBs, do you honestly think having Rashford in the side would somehow create a “glass ceiling”?

I’m absolutely convinced that if we got a sensible structure and the correct level of player around him then Rashford would not be “a problem”. I’m less keen on Bruno as a player but he’s also shown that he can do a job when given a more defined role and for Portugal. As such, I’d definitely fix the manager first before making any decision on either.

Not really sure what this argument is? Rashford is our most senior and well paid player, we can't create a squad you're talking about with him on 350k a week. What are we saying will bring out the best in Rashford? If we have a Henderson style CM player who does all the running covers for him? A full back that covers the whole flank as well so he doesn't have to track back? Rashford has just lost his opportunity to have the team built around him to be honest.

We could move the manager on as well for all I care, but betting on us becoming a top team with Rashford just seems just as dumb as blindly backing Ten Hag.

 

[Chumpsbechumps]

I appreciate your post and what you're saying. We all want the same thing: United to be successful.

Football is ultimately a results based game, a meritocracy even. People can say all kinds of shit about the manager, most will take it with a pinch of salt. It's easy to see when its personal or if there's a basis for criticism, and I don't think anyone in here is swayed by LUHG2022x on Twitter or even in this forum. Absolutely no one has to defend Ten Hag because no one would be calling for his head if we were at the very least playing well or something resembling organised football. The noise around the manager only appears when you get performances and results like Brentford, Bournemouth, Fulham etc. They're completely unacceptable and the manager doesn't help things with his comments after the games.

Ultimately, what I'm trying to say is that people form their opinions based on what they're seeing, not what someone says here or on Monday Night Football. People jump on Tweets or certain comments because they say something that person is feeling but perhaps can't explain succinctly.


I agree with your entire post but this one comment means I can't take anything you've said seriously. All the excuses, which could be deemed valid, are completely void because of the context they're viewed in, from a 'soft spot'. All viewpoints should be from the position of objectivity, and that's regardless of the fact I'm not even sure what he's done to earn a 'soft spot' for anyone to be honest.

You can’t take anything I say seriously because I’m honest about a slight bias I have to him? I’d argue a lot of people are dishonest/ disingenuous / oblivious about their own biases and objectivity (or lack of) and come in here to vent rather than discuss.

One thing I’ve learned as I’ve gotten older is that even if I absolutely detest a persons view or disagree with them, it doesn’t mean that they don’t have valid points or that I can’t learn something from them.

I think by making an honest disclosure about a bias , what I say is something people can trust is an authentic position that’s had some elements of self reflection , even if they disagree with it.

With regards to your “all positions should be from a position of objectivity” comment, I don’t agree at all with this statement. Being objective, by definition , includes admitting one’s bias. Everybody has some sort of bias in these discussions, the only question is to what degree.

People not admitting certain bias’s does not mean they are more likely to be objective. Id argue the opposite, that most people don’t make any meaningful reflection on a position on the manager outside of how they feel about it and the select information that they want to promote.

Just to elaborate, I have a soft spot for him because I think our club has been a basket case and the massive spending (thats been a stick to beat managers with) has basically been a human shield to the glazers/woodward. I also think you can see what one or two years of a sh*t system (and massive money thrown at the problem) under Chelsea can do, we have had a decade of it and I dont expect a manager to be able to fix it that quickly. I mean when Boehly took over, chelsea were at least in as good as position as us and he has spent two or three times what we have spent in the same time and things have been worse for them!

And elaborating on elaboration, I tend to try and explain my position as clearly as I can. Some people interpret it as "trying to change their mind" which is not something I am trying to do. I just want my position to be heard and clear.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yep, I don't think anyone can argue we've wasted a hell of a lot of time not getting this structure in place. We are where we are now though and are starting for 3 steps back because we failed to address it. Ten Hag could be our Mancini or Pellegrini and we find the next manager who could be the Pep for us. He could end up being the long term manager too, but I think we have to at least give him until the end of his contract.

I am inclined to agree as some think it will all just fall into place next season. He will be in the last year of his contract. If it works then great, if not he has had a chance and it likely won't be any worse than it is now, but we have things in place and know exactly who we want as manager, no kneejerk appointment and have been discussing who to sign with that manager who he wants and wants rid of. If it works for ETH then we can sign further players to make his squad complete.

 

[DWelbz19]

Whether the manager stays or not should absolutely not depend on a cup result. For me he should go either way but I'd be worried if new people in charge make that decision based on a result of one game.

Best case scenario for the season is a van Gaal end. FA Cup win and P45 the same day.

 

[DWelbz19]

If you want a really wild ride, read your first 5-10 posts in this thread and your last 5-10. It’s like bunnies in meadows into a post-apocalyptic Mad Max wasteland of misery.

August 2022, I'll take them both:

He’s being let down by the players and the infrastructure around him, but I do fear he’s another massively naive Dutch league coach who thinks he can come to the Premier League and easily adapt his tactics to a side who have never played anything close to Ajax Cruijffian philosophy football (since well LVG I guess).

Squad selection, transfer targets… it’s not looking good brev.

I think the answer is somewhere in between these posts; our budget is very limited so ten Hag does have to move with some tact, but he definitely needs to move with some pragmatism and ruthlessness to distance himself with some players who are fundamentally not good enough nor do they fit the style of football he wants to play.

Assuming we end the transfer window with a whimper, ten Hag has two solutions with the current crop he has:
1. Purge as much of the underperformers as quickly as he can and give the game time to youth/fringe players who better fit the style of football he wants to play; or
2. Temper his style of football/the tactical set up to better accommodate for the fact he has a bunch of players who seem incapable of playing the way he wants.

I personally think trying to persist with the style of football we want to play, with this crop of under-performers might well be his total downfall.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Best case scenario for the season is a van Gaal end. FA Cup win and P45 the same day.

It depends who they are thinking of as manager. Potter would bring a coaching structure, but can he handle the pressure of Manchester United and big egos, although he would be well supported by the structure round him. Southgate can handle the egos, but has not shown much at club level management, was that inexperience. However until after this Euros we do not know if he has learnt to deal with expectations.

 

[Sanchez7]

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ont-train-too-hard-amid-ongoing-injury-crisis

Some good stats on injuries in the article. With all the injury talk, you would think United and Newcastle would be massive outliers but it doesn't seem to be the case for us.

 

[Fortitude]

August 2022, I'll take them both:

Ohh prescient! I feel the euphoria slowly but surely changing to degrees of despair for most, quite saddening. He really did come here with huge backing from the vast majority of fans.

 

[Sarni]

I am inclined to agree as some think it will all just fall into place next season. He will be in the last year of his contract. If it works then great, if not he has had a chance and it likely won't be any worse than it is now, but we have things in place and know exactly who we want as manager, no kneejerk appointment and have been discussing who to sign with that manager who he wants and wants rid of. If it works for ETH then we can sign further players to make his squad complete.

I don't really know about that. It could easily get much worse.

We are currently 6th and will most likely still be able to secure European football at the end of season thanks to numerous wins we got despite not deserving them. Our expected points based on performances would actually have us around 12th or 13th, which I also would agree is the level we have been playing at throughout the season.

What could quite realistically happen next season is that our luck in games will run out and we will regress back to where our performances should normally see us. There's nothing in our performances over the last 12 months that indicates we are likely to get better and be closer to top 3 teams than we currently are.

We do write off seasons very easily here though, and have been acceptant of mediocrity for a long time, so fully expecting ETH to get at least 1, if not 2 more 'free pass' seasons before we make any moves. We are the only big club in Europe that genuinely considers it completely fine to have horrible full seasons. Other big clubs usually call for change after 2-3 months of below par performances. Imagine Real, Bayern or Barcelona being OK with where we are.

 

[JPRouve]

Only at United would we have this bizarre situation where we say that the best players are the problem. If we got to a position where we had a CF who scored 25 goals a season and a RW who contributed 30+ GA, had two fullbacks of Shaw’s quality who could stay fit, a Rodri level DM and world class CBs, do you honestly think having Rashford in the side would somehow create a “glass ceiling”?

I’m absolutely convinced that if we got a sensible structure and the correct level of player around him then Rashford would not be “a problem”. I’m less keen on Bruno as a player but he’s also shown that he can do a job when given a more defined role and for Portugal. As such, I’d definitely fix the manager first before making any decision on either.

That's not just United. It's not uncommon for decent and sometimes very good teams to have an issue with their best players when they want to reach a higher tier, examples of that would be Ozil for Arsenal, Van Nistelrooy for United, Coutinho for Liverpool, there are players like Mario Gomez who was statistically good but was also an issue for Bayern, there is also Ibrahimovic for nearly all the teams he played for, for a long time he would essentially take too much space in your attack which is a limitation against the best teams. Many players are either not a good fit outside of very specific contexts or are soloist, they will perform at a high level individually but don't contribute to any sort of synergy and at the highest level synergy is essential.

 

[DWelbz19]

I don't really know about that. It could easily get much worse.

We are currently 6th and will most likely still be able to secure European football at the end of this season thanks to numerous wins we got despite not deserving them. Our expected points based on performances would actually have us around 12th or 13th, which I also would very much agree is the level we have been playing at throughout the season.

What could quite realistically happen next season is that our luck in games will run out and we will regress back to where our performances should normally see us. There's nothing in our performances over the last 12 months that indicates we are likely to get better and be closer to top 3 teams than we currently are.

Yep. Could easily see us having a Chelsea-tier season if he stays.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't really know about that. It could easily get much worse.

We are currently 6th and will most likely still be able to secure European football at the end of season thanks to numerous wins we got despite not deserving them. Our expected points based on performances would actually have us around 12th or 13th, which I also would agree is the level we have been playing at throughout the season.

What could quite realistically happen next season is that our luck in games will run out and we will regress back to where our performances should normally see us. There's nothing in our performances over the last 12 months that indicates we are likely to get better and be closer to top 3 teams than we currently are.

We do write off seasons very easily here though, and have been acceptant of mediocrity for a long time, so fully expecting ETH to get at least 1, if not 2 more 'free pass' seasons before we make any moves. We are the only big club in Europe that genuinely considers it completely fine to have horrible full seasons. Other big clubs usually call for change after 2-3 months of below par performances.

I would worry if we get rid of him now, then we might still under perform next season even with a new manager anyway and some will not be happy. Doubt they can get rid of all the players in one go and get all the needed players in, so it will still be a bit sketchy. The only thing would be if we can actually see what a manager is trying to do.

 

[NLunited]

I wouldn't be annoyed in the slightest,he lost 7-0 at Anfield which was utterly unforgivable. He also seems to be full of excuses and then that rubbish last Saturday about City lucky against Brentford just to put the icing on a truly awful cake

Have you watched those games? I watched one of them and he is spot on.

 

[Sarni]

Yep. Could easily see us having a Chelsea-tier season if he stays.

We have not been better this season than many of the teams that are currently below us but have got many, many wins in tight games. We have 15 wins and all but 3 of them were by a single goal. We've barely dropped any points in tight games - all three of our draws we were the inferior side and should have lost (Spurs, Liverpool, Brentford), and most of our 11 defeats were very well deserved..

 

[miliebrowndivorceattorney]

I don't really know about that. It could easily get much worse.

We are currently 6th and will most likely still be able to secure European football at the end of season thanks to numerous wins we got despite not deserving them. Our expected points based on performances would actually have us around 12th or 13th, which I also would agree is the level we have been playing at throughout the season.

What could quite realistically happen next season is that our luck in games will run out and we will regress back to where our performances should normally see us. There's nothing in our performances over the last 12 months that indicates we are likely to get better and be closer to top 3 teams than we currently are.

We do write off seasons very easily here though, and have been acceptant of mediocrity for a long time, so fully expecting ETH to get at least 1, if not 2 more 'free pass' seasons before we make any moves. We are the only big club in Europe that genuinely considers it completely fine to have horrible full seasons. Other big clubs usually call for change after 2-3 months of below par performances. Imagine Real, Bayern or Barcelona being OK with where we are.

Isn't this one of them strawman fallacies?

And actually undermine your own pov: how come Ten Hag doesn't get praise for despite all the trouble, mixed performances, he still manages us to look good, view on CL and much, much better than Chelsea and second coming Howe and his magic Newcastle band? Indeed, we should have beend P12 orso, but we ain't.

How many times didn't we (me included) write ETH's eulogy when he managed to get a good if not spectacular good performance out of the hat? Why can't he get some slack for that? Just look at what a bad run Arteta had with Arsenal had, with much more bad games and results in a row. As it is, Ten Hag's worst run is 2 losses in a row.

Really, take down ETH when he indeed gets us a P10 endresult but at the moment, by your metric, wash his car. Kiss the ring. And tonight if you are at the game, praise and back him and the team.