Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Luffy]

Around 2015, I used to be befogged by speculations from fans saying that we need this or that trio of players for us to WIN the title. That type of reasoning was here during the aftermath of Moyes' sacking. Strangely it was during this time that a few of the future Jose/Ole loyalists got registered as redcafe members. Anyway I thought back then, they must know something I don't. Many are natives and many even match goers.

Most of the Ten Hag supporters often say stuff I don't think is true. And the ETH outers too commit mistakes in their reasoning according to my lights.

Football goes on forever. Keeping Ten Hag will solve the problem of players not turning up, because he will keep on sinking and sinking taking us down with him, until the fans finally revolt and vote with their wallet. At the same time fans wanting to sack ETH in favor of De Zerbi (not good enough for open heart surgery time), or Inzaghi (lack of contacts in England/language and culture problems) - I see that Emery's name has been quietly dropped - obviously these fans and everyone too don't have a better clue than all 'experts' out there.

The more proactive thing is to keep ETH till everyone can see the glass is totally empty. If a messianic manager can't be grown or got for love or money, then for want of options we'll have shock therapy instead of what Rangnick had prescribed.

 

[Ludens the Red]

Casemiro has been injured and not fully match fit for the last two. What sort of reasoning is this?

Are you alright in the head mate?

feck me lads. Read it properly rather than playing the narrative….

The last three games that Casemiro has started for Manchester United. Scott Mctominay had ALSO started in those three games. I didn’t say Casemiro has started the last three games. Not once.

 

[Redstain]

What specifically are his tactics?

High press out of possession which begins to unravel if the opposition beats the first press especially into the midfield a trait that can be identified back to the very first game of the season against Wolves. In possession the shape is two 8's and a lone cover defensive midfielder who receives the ball from the defense and is expected to cover the overt spaces during a transition / turnover. Won't even define the attacking phases of play as it's positionally a mess and leaves the team vulnerable with the midfield overloaded to accommodate the attack. So it's essentially a 3-1-6 depending on what phase the team is in.

That all derives from a statement which was for United to be the best transition team in the world. Whereas last season, especially towards the new year there was more balance across the performances with the double pivot and Eriksen having more a pivotal role in distributing the ball from the midfield before he was retired by Andy Carrol.

 

[DSG]

So excellent performances against top sides in high stakes games aren’t relevant too see if they might change people’s minds a bit?

Don’t get me wrong I’m sure Brentford has brought everyone back down. Myself included.

As I said, leave it up. I can’t say the amazing win v Liverpool changed my mind, but it might have changed other people’s minds. I was happy for the team and Ten Hag with the win.

For me, it’s the inconsistency. The mark of a good manager is the ability to prepare the squad to attack the deficiencies of each opponent and implement a winning style of play that endures from match to match.

 

[VP89]

Wow, still repeating the same nonsense.

I literally quoted the post that started the conversation and you still don't get it.

Like I said keep digging. Just making yourself look more and more ridiculous.

And there's lots of nonsense you peddled in between that, Why don't you nip it in the bud - is Mount a waste of money, yes or no?

 

[VP89]

feck me lads. Read it properly rather than playing the narrative….

The last three games that Casemiro has started for Manchester United. Scott Mctominay had ALSO started in those three games. I didn’t say Casemiro has started the last three games. Not once.

Part of your premise of McT being favoured to Casemiro was saying how McT started the last 3 and Casemiro didn't. I quoted that bit specifically as a questionable logic to vindicate your view.

 

[Amar__]

And you spew ignorant garbage for free

And another one...

 

[Member 58925]

High press out of possession which begins to unravel if the opposition beats the first press especially into the midfield a trait that can be identified back to the very first game of the season against Wolves. In possession the shape is two 8's and a lone cover defensive midfielder who receives the ball from the defense and is expected to cover the overt spaces during a transition / turnover. Won't even define the attacking phases of play as it's positionally a mess and leaves the team vulnerable with the midfield overloaded to accommodate the attack. So it's essentially a 3-1-6 depending on what phase the team is in.

That all derives from a statement which was for United to be the best transition team in the world. Whereas last season, especially towards the new year there was more balance across the performances with the double pivot and Eriksen having more a pivotal role in distributing the ball from the midfield before he was retired by Andy Carrol.

It’s not simply a “high press”, it’s defending further up the pitch and more specifically with this system it’s setting wide traps. When you try to do this and the players that are supposed to mark potential ball recipients couldn’t be arsed, it throws everything off. Before Eriksen got hurt he was the link to get the ball moving quickly between the lines on a consistent basis which is the key feature of this system. Unmotivated players are 100% on the manager, and it sounds like you’re perfectly aware of what this system looks like when executed properly. There isn’t a manager out there who we would deem worthy of the job that doesn’t run a system that requires the same things.

 

[Member 58925]

And another one...

Learn some football son it’ll do wonders for your fan experience to gain a slightly deeper understanding of what you’re seeing

 

[Red Dreams]

SJR will have two windows to give whatever support Erik needs.
If the expectations are not met, he will be gone end of next season.

He clearly has said it is not like turning on a switch.

People simply need to be patient.
You cannot turn round years of harm done by a non Football board without even a window of activity.

 

[Member 58925]

And there's lots of nonsense you peddled in between that, Why don't you nip it in the bud - is Mount a waste of money, yes or no?

I imagine he’s been watching football long enough to understand that transfers that end up coming good don’t always hit the ground running.

 

[Member 58925]

SJR will have two windows to give whatever support Erik needs.
If the expectations are not met, he will be gone end of next season.

He clearly has said it is not like turning on a switch.

People simply need to be patient.
You cannot turn round years of harm done by a non Football board without even a window of activity.

SJR can support him in one window by eating some contracts and selling players for the betterment of the squad. If the loafers and players that don’t have the right skill set stick around they might as well sack him now

 

[VP89]

I imagine he’s been watching football long enough to understand that transfers that end up coming good don’t always hit the ground running.

Doubt it. He keeps talking about wastes of money and points to transfers like these.

If he just said "we over spent and wasted £15m or so" then fair enough. But he's peddled a narrative with overall money spent as an indictment on Ten Hag, when we actually wasted money worse under Ole.

In truth it's not Oles fault nor Ten Hag's fault that the structure is shite. If we want to criticise ten hags decisions on the field then I'm game, and mostly in agreement.

 

[Member 58925]

Doubt it. He keeps talking about wastes of money and points to transfers like these.

If he just said "we over spent and wasted £15m or so" then fair enough. But he's peddled a narrative as an indictment on Ten Hag when we actually wasted money worse under Ole.

In truth it's not Oles fault nor Ten Hag's fault that the structure is shite. If we want to criticise ten hags decisions on the field then I'm game, and mostly in agreement.

There have actually been posters in this thread that have downplayed the damage the Glazers have done to further their argument

 

[VP89]

There have actually been posters in this thread that have downplayed the damage the Glazers have done to further their argument

Agreed. The Glazers have massively fecked us over too.

 

[VP89]

And another one...

To be fair, lazily accusing posters of being paid by Ten Hag isn't exactly a fair statement.

 

[Redstain]

It’s not simply a “high press”, it’s defending further up the pitch and more specifically with this system it’s setting wide traps. When you try to do this and the players that are supposed to mark potential ball recipients couldn’t be arsed, it throws everything off. Before Eriksen got hurt he was the link to get the ball moving quickly between the lines on a consistent basis which is the key feature of this system. Unmotivated players are 100% on the manager, and it sounds like you’re perfectly aware of what this system looks like when executed properly. There isn’t a manager out there who we would deem worthy of the job that doesn’t run a system that requires the same things.

But I don't think this system is capable of working properly because the disparity is evident that when the teams press fails or alternatively someone loses possession, the attacking players are so high up the pitch and the defense is considerably deeper, that chasm of space in-between is why in almost every single game this season you can freeze frame the midfield sprinting to cover the spaces. The difference between Erik and other managers is that their midfields will retreat collectively, United's midfield on the other hand have to scramble to defend and that's where the ridiculous attempts on goal stats are being provided. It's not a coincidence that all the pundits unanimously are highlighting this issue but the coaching and management are still unable to fix the disproportions of the teams shape.

As you mentioned one phase of play leads to another so the issue cannot be fixed in isolation, it's clear that the positioning in the attacking phase is compounding the issue when out of possession. I don't think this is a case of Erik being a bad manager, it's evident that what he's doing isn't working not because of personnel but because it's illogical when assessing the spaces openly. Even if you mark ball recipients (which is near impossible in the midfield and a reason the majority of top teams use zonal marking) with the defensive line dislodged from the area of the field where the play is active, that is fundamentally a structural issue.

 

[Red Dreams]

SJR can support him in one window by eating some contracts and selling players for the betterment of the squad. If the loafers and players that don’t have the right skill set stick around they might as well sack him now

Players like Martial will be gone for sure.
But FFP rules may restrict players coming in without reasonable outgoings too.
But I do think there will be staffing/coaching changes to help Erik too.

The key point fans need to understand is that no new manager is certain to hit the ground running.

On the Brentford match. I though Erik should not have played Garnacho and Mainoo. They were both tired and or not recovered from Illness.
We had Anthony and Amratbat.
Finally. There was no excuse not to hold on to the lead after our goal.

 

[hobbers]

If he just said "we over spent and wasted £15m or so" then fair enough. But he's peddled a narrative with overall money spent as an indictment on Ten Hag, when we actually wasted money worse under Ole.

AWB, Maguire, Bruno and Varane say hello. Oh and Diallo who temporarily saved ETH's job 2 weeks ago.

Now we're so desperate for a reason to keep posting in the thread of a soon-to-be ex United manager we're going to argue that VdB and Sancho were worse signings than Mount and Antony. Like comparing two giant mounds of manure and then presumably extracting some meaning out of it somehow.

 

[Rojofiam]

Yes? I believe he's a terrible signing, I was giving the poster the benefit of the doubt to see his justification by ignoring the financial implications of the Mount transfer. Regardless of how much Mount has played or not, I believe he's a terrible signing because the money could have been spent in more important positions, we did not need another #8. I don't know how you're viewing this as a "gotcha". You actually went through my post history to make no point whatsoever, a bit sad honestly.

You can believe what you want, it doesn't mean it's the truth. We absolutely needed a new #8, by the way, but you can argue that Mount wasn't the profile we should've gone for. However, we need options, and even if ten Hag was very serious about integrating Mainoo into the first team this season (I believe he was) as a player who gets a lot of playtime, having different options can only be a good thing.

The thing with Mount's transfer is that we don't have enough evidence or data, or even a big enough sample size from his playtime in order to draw a conclusion whether he was a good or bad signing. When he's played, he's done well, overall, but I'm sure you won't see it that way. We don't know whether he was brought as an #8 to play next to Casemiro, or ahead of the Brazilian, so next to Bruno, or even to replace Bruno, or maybe because of his versatility, only ten Hag and the coaching staff knows. We can only guess.

There's not much to suggest he's been a terrible signing, as he's a player who would be useful for most top 7 sides, and like I said, he's been decent when he's had the chance to play, especially his movement and work-rate out of possession has been promising. If ten Hag stays, it's obvious that he will be counting on him. If we get a new manager, he will likely still be an important player.

I feel like Mount has been a very easy target for United fans.

-He's English, and there's been some weird hatred towards British players the last few years, not even just from Asian and African sections of our fanbase, but local supporters as well.

-His 55m transfer fee is often considered to be too much, and an overpay, by large sections of the fanbase, because they don't seem to realize how wild the market has gotten in these last 2-3 years. Most players go for a bit more, than most fans would estimate nowadays. Just look at Enzo, Caicedo, Szoboszlai, Nunes, Palmer, etc. I'm sure there's more of them, I just listed a few central midfielders there.

You can't really get a 24 year old, PL-proven midfielder with Mount's individual and team achievements for less than 55 million these days.

 

[Amar__]

To be fair, lazily accusing posters of being paid by Ten Hag isn't exactly a fair statement.

It's not lazy at all, worse things have happened and are happening every day. Even on this forum we have seen many ridiculous things.

 

[VP89]

AWB, Maguire, Bruno and Varane say hello. Oh and Diallo who temporarily saved ETH's job 2 weeks ago.

Now we're so desperate for a reason to keep posting in the thread of a soon-to-be ex United manager we're going to argue that VdB and Sancho were worse signings than Mount and Antony. Like comparing two giant mounds of manure and then presumably extracting some meaning out of it somehow.

Neither AWB nor Maguire would suit a progressive coach, so yes both were mistakes. Sancho and VDB were also wastes, as was Ronaldo and Cavani.

Diallo and Pellistri were cheap punts, of which at least one won't work out. Telles flopped too.

A lot more money was wasted under Oles reign, but as I said, that's a structural issue first.

 

[VP89]

It's not lazy at all, worse things have happened and are happening every day. Even on this forum we have seen many ridiculous things.

Thats great, but this idea that posters can't see another side unless they're paid by the manager is a bit thick. There's mistakes by the manager, he's having a bad season but don't go too far in attacking the other view.

 

[Longshanks]

It’s not simply a “high press”, it’s defending further up the pitch and more specifically with this system it’s setting wide traps. When you try to do this and the players that are supposed to mark potential ball recipients couldn’t be arsed, it throws everything off. Before Eriksen got hurt he was the link to get the ball moving quickly between the lines on a consistent basis which is the key feature of this system. Unmotivated players are 100% on the manager, and it sounds like you’re perfectly aware of what this system looks like when executed properly. There isn’t a manager out there who we would deem worthy of the job that doesn’t run a system that requires the same things.

When we come up against a back 5 with wingbacks which players is it that should be picking up the wingbacks?

 

[hobbers]

Neither AWB nor Maguire would suit a progressive coach, so yes both were mistakes. Sancho and VDB were also wastes, as was Ronaldo and Cavani.

Diallo and Pellistri were cheap punts, of which at least one won't work out. Telles flopped too.

A lot more money was wasted under Oles reign, but as I said, that's a structural issue first.

Ole wasnt a progressive coach. AWB and Maguire suited his counterpunch, conservative football. They've also been some of the better players this season.

Not mistakes in the same sense that, for example, Mount was for ETH. Who apparently hasnt got a fecking scooby what to do with him. Directly equivalent to Ole signing VdB, just £20m more expensive and a much higher opportunity cost given how many quality midfielders other teams signed at the same time.

 

[lex talionis]

The buy of Mount only makes sense as a replacement for Bruno. ETH could not have not have known that Mount would be out due to injury for the most of the season, so he had to rely on Bruno. But ETH either envisioned Bruno and Mount working well together, which would have been daft and a sackable offense itself, or he viewed this season as the phaseout season for Bruno, which hopefully it is. Bruno has run his course at OT and should be sold this summer.

 

[Red Dreams]

It's not lazy at all, worse things have happened and are happening every day. Even on this forum we have seen many ridiculous things.

What a ridiculous rebuttal.

You have no evidence that fans who do not condemn Erik but give him a benefit of doubt are paid by Erik.
He made several mistakes in the Brentford match as I pointed out above.
The final decision about what happens next season rests with SJR.

And no one actually knows what will happen.

You are drowning.

 

[Desert Eagle]

The buy of Mount only makes sense as a replacement for Bruno. ETH could not have not have known that Mount would be out due to injury for the most of the season, so he had to rely on Bruno. But ETH either envisioned Bruno and Mount working well together, which would have been daft and a sackable offense itself, or he viewed this season as the phaseout season for Bruno, which hopefully it is. Bruno has run his course at OT and should be sold this summer.

He made Bruno captain so it's obviously choice A. ETH has hitched his wagon to Bruno and it's been costing him and us.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

It's not lazy at all, worse things have happened and are happening every day. Even on this forum we have seen many ridiculous things.

It’s downright stupid, lazy and just terrible posting.

To accuse anyone being a bit more patient and happy to explain why as being paid to do so is an absolutely moronic comment.

 

[Member 58925]

But I don't think this system is capable of working properly because the disparity is evident that when the teams press fails or alternatively someone loses possession, the attacking players are so high up the pitch and the defense is considerably deeper, that chasm of space in-between is why in almost every single game this season you can freeze frame the midfield sprinting to cover the spaces. The difference between Erik and other managers is that their midfields will retreat collectively, United's midfield on the other hand have to scramble to defend and that's where the ridiculous attempts on goal stats are being provided. It's not a coincidence that all the pundits unanimously are highlighting this issue but the coaching and management are still unable to fix the disproportions of the teams shape.

As you mentioned one phase of play leads to another so the issue cannot be fixed in isolation, it's clear that the positioning in the attacking phase is compounding the issue when out of possession. I don't think this is a case of Erik being a bad manager, it's evident that what he's doing isn't working not because of personnel but because it's illogical when assessing the spaces openly. Even if you mark ball recipients (which is near impossible in the midfield and a reason the majority of top teams use zonal marking) with the defensive line dislodged from the area of the field where the play is active, that is fundamentally a structural issue.

Finding the balance between adjusting your tactics to fit the players you have and adjusting your tactics because it requires a higher work rate than the players are willing to put in is easier said than done. High press teams do man mark when they are trying to funnel the opposition into a trap, but when passing lanes are left wide open is when you'll see those huge gaps. Think of it as dropping a cage on an animal to trap it but the back of the cage is open

 

[Member 58925]

When we come up against a back 5 with wingbacks which players is it that should be picking up the wingbacks?

Typically the wide attackers, but in a high press system the wide attackers simply have to close down passing lanes and do their defending higher up the pitch rather than having to sprint back every time because there was nobody within the same postal code as the wingback. If you can recall any game AWB has played in against high press teams it's similar to what the opposition tries to do to him (No slight on him btw as he has improved in this area)

 

[VP89]

Ole wasnt a progressive coach. AWB and Maguire suited his counterpunch, conservative football. They've also been some of the better players this season.

Not mistakes in the same sense that, for example, Mount was for ETH. Who apparently hasnt got a fecking scooby what to do with him. Directly equivalent to Ole signing VdB, just £20m more expensive and a much higher opportunity cost given how many quality midfielders other teams signed at the same time.

What on earth are you arguing about. Both AWB and Maguire don't suit a progressive coach and were mistakes. AWB has been out most this season, he's not a vital cog for Ten hag. Maguire he tried to flog and was 3rd sometimes 4th choice for him. An 80m signing, so yes also a mistake.
Sancho, Donny were utter wastes whilst Telles and Cavani just came and went. Ronaldo was also a big mistake.

Ten Hag has barely been able to integrate Mount, so you can park your presumptions on not knowing how to use him.

 

[Amar__]

It’s downright stupid, lazy and just terrible posting.

To accuse anyone being a bit more patient and happy to explain why as being paid to do so is an absolutely moronic comment.

Who would have thought that Ten Hag fans wouldn't like that comment?

 

[Member 58925]

The buy of Mount only makes sense as a replacement for Bruno. ETH could not have not have known that Mount would be out due to injury for the most of the season, so he had to rely on Bruno. But ETH either envisioned Bruno and Mount working well together, which would have been daft and a sackable offense itself, or he viewed this season as the phaseout season for Bruno, which hopefully it is. Bruno has run his course at OT and should be sold this summer.

In a quick vertical passing system that defends high up the pitch, that's not remotely true. In a deeper 4-2-3-1 like West Ham's for example, then no it would make absolutely no sense.

 

[Member 58925]

Who would have thought that Ten Hag fans wouldn't like that comment?

Who would have thought you'd be more concerned with opposing the manager than supporting the club? Yet here we are

 

[Member 58925]

What on earth are you arguing about. Both AWB and Maguire don't suit a progressive coach and were mistakes. AWB has been out most this season, he's not a vital cog for Ten hag. Maguire he tried to flog and was 3rd sometimes 4th choice for him. An 80m signing, so yes also a mistake.
Sancho, Donny were utter wastes whilst Telles and Cavani just came and went. Ronaldo was also a big mistake.

Ten Hag has barely been able to integrate Mount, so you can park your presumptions on not knowing how to use him.

AWB and Maguire were his signings, but Sancho and DVB who knows. Ronaldo was 100% forced on him. It's almost like a club that operates like a money front makes it hard on their managers to succeed.

 

[VP89]

Who would have thought that Ten Hag fans wouldn't like that comment?

You gave daft wind up comment and wonder why it was ill received? Excellent

 

[VP89]

AWB and Maguire were his signings, but Sancho and DVB who knows. Ronaldo was 100% forced on him. It's almost like a club that operates like a money front makes it hard on their managers to succeed.

Where was it said it was forced?
If we play that game, how do we know Casemiro was a Ten Hag choice? How do we know ONLY ten hag wanted mount?

 

[hobbers]

What on earth are you arguing about. Both AWB and Maguire don't suit a progressive coach and were mistakes. AWB has been out most this season, he's not a vital cog for Ten hag. Maguire he tried to flog and was 3rd sometimes 4th choice for him. An 80m signing, so yes also a mistake.
Sancho, Donny were utter wastes whilst Telles and Cavani just came and went. Ronaldo was also a big mistake.

Ten Hag has barely been able to integrate Mount, so you can park your presumptions on not knowing how to use him.

This is what happens when you engage in the derivative debates in this thread. End up down a dead end and have absolutely no idea what the point of it all is.

If you want to feel better about how god awful a manager ETH is by bashing Ole's signings, fine. Just like ETH, Ole was a terrible manager and made terrible signings. But my point was you should rate signings based on what the managers wanted at the time, not abstract concepts like "progressive football" that no one at the club had a clue about in 2019, and actually still haven't got a clue about now based on ETH's signings and flailing about wildly between, what could generously be called, styles of play. None of which have been progressive so far.

 

[DJ_21]

Where was it said it was forced?
If we play that game, how do we know Casemiro was a Ten Hag choice? How do we know ONLY ten hag wanted mount?

Ten hag definitely wanted Mount. He’s seen him play in the Dutch league before and kept pushing for him. ETH got all his first choice signings.