Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

[Alex99]

I legitimately don't know what you're doing here. This is the first team squad according to our website -> https://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/first-team

this is the composition of the squad:

Spoiler

Onana - ETH
Bayindir - ETH
Heaton

Martinez - ETH
Malacia - ETH
Evans - ETH
Kwambala - promoted by ETH
Varane
Lindelof
Maguire
Dalot
Shaw


Casemiro - ETH
Amrabat - ETH
Mount - ETH
Eriksen - ETH
Mainoo - promoted by ETH
Forson - promoted by ETH
Mctominay
B. Fernandes
Amad

Hojlund - ETH
Antony - ETH
Rashford
Martial
Garnacho
Shoretire

how is this not largely his squad?

you are caveating "free transfers", "loans", "availability", as if the players suddenly stop being members of the first team squad. Madness

What argument are you making?

Of course the long-term intentions for and availability of players affects the composition of the squad.

It's precisely this lack of nuance or acknowledgement of wider context that annoys people.

People don't consider the likes Steven Caulker, Ragnar Klavan, Alex Manninger and Ozan Kabak "Klopp players". They're just players that briefly filled a gap in the squad.

 

[MonkeysMagic]

Utd excel in hiring incompetence, or atleast players/managers that become incompetent once they are at Utd, so it's only right that we should be linked with incompetent candidates such as Potter/Southgate because if they glove fits the hand...!

 

[Dec9003]

Aggressive pressing, high turnover transition focused football? Seems to work for Pep and Klopp. Bear in mind Erik used to work with and learn from Pep at Bayern. I think he will know how this system is supposed to work.

His system isn’t similar to how City or Liverpool play when you look at our shape, imo. He does know how his system is supposed to work, I’m of the opinion that unless it is significantly tweaked it will not work in the Premier League. I don’t think he has shown the ability/willingness to tweak his system to maximise it, I don’t agree with his plan on how he wants us to play. I don’t think this means that I am lumping all of our issues onto the manager, nor do I think it’s a harsh or unfair opinion.

 

[VP89]

And that would lead me to my second paragraph.

Aha!

 

[TsuWave]

What argument are you making?

Of course the long-term intentions for and availability of players affects the composition of the squad.

It's precisely this lack of nuance or acknowledgement of wider context that annoys people.

I mean I said the squad was largely his in this context:

In regards to the cultural and mentality argument - the squad is largely Ten Hag's - but please read below as I find this post salient:

because you spoke of - "Even the "lack of effort getting managers sacked" argument has some basis in reality, given the obvious cultural issues at the club (which certainly aren't helped by the contracts some of these players are given) that can permeate a squad long after the source of the 'trouble' has gone."

to which I then presented the below post as salient:

I have no issue with the idea to sell players and bring new ones. But you still have to question the manager and why you are defending him that staunchly or giving him the benefit of doubt, people defending ETH seem to make two suggestions at the same time, the players are responsible for the tactical issues and they are also responsible for the mentality issues which implies that ETH isn't a technical or mental leader, so why exactly should he stay and be given a new batch of most likely expensive players when he is showing that he can't lead people tactically or mentally? And if things improves after changing the entire core why should he be considered responsible for the improvement, logically the new players should get 100% of the praises?

I don't think the point I'm making is hazy or obfuscated. And if people get annoyed that's on them - I replied to your remark regarding cultural issues.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Aha!

My point was more around this utterly nonsense, baseless notion that he would somehow have a "free pass" next season if he survives past the summer.

 

[JPRouve]

His system isn’t similar to how City or Liverpool play when you look at our shape, imo. He does know how his system is supposed to work, I’m of the opinion that unless it is significantly tweaked it will not work in the Premier League. I don’t think he has shown the ability/willingness to tweak his system to maximise it, I don’t agree with his plan on how he wants us to play. I don’t think this means that I am lumping all of our issues onto the manager, nor do I think it’s a harsh or unfair opinion.

It works nowhere, it's not a PL related issue but a basic Football reality. No team can be consistently good when they emphasize nothing and by design structurally leave themselves vulnerable in nearly every area. In the most basic way, you can't be a good transition team and have no control of the transition phase, under ETH United has consistently been reactive in transition instead of being proactive and put our opponents in tough spots offensively and defensively, that can happen for a few weeks or months at the beginning of a new tenure but it can't be the expectation 20 months into a manager tenure regardless of which player is on the teamsheet, at least not if the team is actually coached.

 

[Alex99]

I mean I said the squad was largely his in this context:



because you spoke of - "Even the "lack of effort getting managers sacked" argument has some basis in reality, given the obvious cultural issues at the club (which certainly aren't helped by the contracts some of these players are given) that can permeate a squad long after the source of the 'trouble' has gone."

to which I then presented the below post as salient:



I don't think the point I'm making is hazy or obfuscated. And if people get annoyed that's on them - I replied to your remark regarding cultural issues.

Because that bad culture can permeate even new signings and academy graduates. I'd suggest we've seen as much with Sancho, who seemingly quite quickly found himself in a group of Rashford, Lingard and co.

It's also not the main point I'm making when it comes to assessing the squad. The reality is that the available squad this season has not been "largely Ten Hag's" by any definition.

Your point is hazy because you're ignoring the main points made to you in order to respond to minor elements of posts with "gotcha" type responses.

As I said (and as you ignored), this line of debate is pointless.

The biggest issue with Ten Hag is a stubbornness or inability to adapt his tactics to the hand he's been dealt in terms of player availability. Banging on about it being "his squad" quite literally obfuscates that because it moves focus onto squad makeup rather than, you know, the gaping hole in our midfield, game after game.

I mentioned all these points to you, but as with many others, you've persisted with finding any old shit to fling in his direction.

 

[TsuWave]

Imagine pointing to injured players and loan dumpster dives and claiming thats his squad as though it's a master design.

Yes, injured and loan players are not part of the first team squad. Our own website got it wrong. Only players bought for +£30M and of the Leo horoscope sign persuasion count.

Caught out chatting shite, again.

Unfortunately you're wrong, despite being an expert in "chatting shite". Like the time you said Ten Hag doesn't have data scientists and scouts to help or that the club didn't present alternatives for Antony:

Klopp has data scientists and scouts to help with his targets and Ten Hag has feck all

they had nothing for the winger option

He had no support on any alternative from the club.

I hope you're not going to be following me around the forum, griefing, because I asked you not to make stuff up. It's not healthy nor conducive of a good forum environment.

 

[Xaviboy]

Interesting to see if INEOS template of playing style that SJR mentioned in his interview they wish to see fits Ten Hag's vision.

Can't see that happening.

Ten Hag won't drop 2 years of his work to change a style of football for INEOS who may see different style to what us currently on display. Doesn't come across as a person/manager that will change.

 

[Zlatan 7]

Yeah. I am expecting him to get a free pass all of next season regardless of results/performances, while we are assessing how he performs under 'new structure', and then he may be on thin ground if we have a similar season as this one and finish around 6th or 8th. Even then I expect him to get another season to see how he's going to cope with one more season under new structure. If we then do not improve to a comfortable top 4 position (or at least closer to top 4 than we will be this year) in 2025-26, he will be gone.

I don't expect us to be great under him but we will probably scrape a top 4 finish in one of the upcoming two seasons, as I expect one of Spurs/Villa to regress, and it will be considered a huge, major success.

It’s madness to read this and agree it’s likely to be true, we’ve sacked managers the last decade for finishing 2nd and 3rd and not being able to take the next step yet now there’s this massive defence of a manager really likely to be finishing 6h

 

[Alex99]

Interesting to see if INEOS template of playing style that SJR mentioned in his interview they wish to see fits Ten Hag's vision.

Can't see that happening.

Ten Hag won't drop 2 years of his work to change a style of football for INEOS who may see different style to what us currently on display. Doesn't come across as a person/manager that will change.

I would imagine the football INEOS envision us playing and the football Ten Hag would like us to play are not too different.

It’s madness to read this and agree it’s likely to be true, we’ve sacked managers the last decade for finishing 2nd and 3rd and not being able to take the next step yet now there’s this massive defence of a manager really likely to be finishing 6h

Personally I think we'll be seeing a departure "by mutual consent" in the summer.

I can't imagine he wants to go into next season with his contract running out, and we'd be mad to give him any assurances of an extension into a fourth season.

 

[Plant0x84]

His system isn’t similar to how City or Liverpool play when you look at our shape, imo. He does know how his system is supposed to work, I’m of the opinion that unless it is significantly tweaked it will not work in the Premier League. I don’t think he has shown the ability/willingness to tweak his system to maximise it, I don’t agree with his plan on how he wants us to play. I don’t think this means that I am lumping all of our issues onto the manager, nor do I think it’s a harsh or unfair opinion.

That’s fair enough, it’s your opinion. I respect that opinion, even if I don’t necessarily agree with you.
That’s just one issue though. There are plenty more issues ten Hag is taking the full flack for when in reality his situation is more nuanced.
It seems to me that with the investment from INEOS being completed and the Glazers seemingly taking a back seat that an avenue of venting discontent with the club has been shut down, so now the manager is the focus of all of that frustration. It’s unfair in my opinion and misplaced. You seem to be taking my comment personally - which wasn’t my intention. I don’t think generally shipping out the manager is the answer, and it will set us back.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It’s madness to read this and agree it’s likely to be true, we’ve sacked managers the last decade for finishing 2nd and 3rd and not being able to take the next step yet now there’s this massive defence of a manager really likely to be finishing 6h

There shouldn't be any defence. I also think he's gone this summer and only survived the season due to the takeover. People need to stop hero worshipping our managers: it's ludicrous when you consider who we have appointed over the past decade.

 

[hobbers]

He likely won't be here next season. Some on here obsessively keep repeating he'll be here next season and get a "free pass" all season. I honestly think some just enjoy winding themselves up.

If, and it's a big if, he is here next season; he will be booted out pretty quickly unless there are massive improvements.

If he does survive the summer we can write Ineos off nice and early into their reign.

In that scenario would fully expect ETH to limp through enough of next season to ensure it’s another write off. Then they’ll sack him and replace him with another doomed candidate like Potter or Southgate.

 

[glazed]

Interesting to see if INEOS template of playing style that SJR mentioned in his interview they wish to see fits Ten Hag's vision.

Can't see that happening.

Ten Hag won't drop 2 years of his work to change a style of football for INEOS who may see different style to what us currently on display. Doesn't come across as a person/manager that will change.

I don't think we've really seen how ETH wants to play yet. He hasn't had a functioning centre forward until a month ago.

 

[Robbie Boy]

If he does survive the summer we can write Ineos off nice and early into their reign.

In that scenario would fully expect ETH to limp through enough of next season to ensure it’s another write off. Then they’ll sack him and replace him with another doomed candidate like Potter or Southgate.

The worst thing is, they can bin him this summer and we might still end up with one of those two. Funny that neither are being remotely linked with any other big clubs; it has to be us

 

[VP89]

Yes, injured and loan players are not part of the first team squad. Our own website got it wrong. Only players bought for +£30M and of the Leo horoscope sign persuasion count.

Your premise for dicking on the manager is bringing in injured players, squad options or loan dumpster dives.

We aren't saying they weren't bought when Ten Hag was the manager, we are saying this is still far from "his" squad. Trust you to completely and utterly miss the point.

Unfortunately you're wrong, despite being an expert in "chatting shite". Like the time you said Ten Hag doesn't have data scientists and scouts to help or that the club didn't present alternatives for Antony:

I hope you're not going to be following me around the forum, griefing, because I asked you not to make stuff up. It's not healthy nor conducive of a good forum environment.

Again, my article from the same source is more recent than yours and supports my points.
I know that probably hurts for you, which is why you never acknowledge it, but don't worry il be here to call out your utter bullshit if I see it. The latest being this, relying on loans, squad options and injured players as an insinuation that he can lean on his own long term players.

 

[DWelbz19]

Conflicting quotes from the same report. Reads like noise rather than substance.

 

[Zlatan 7]

I would imagine the football INEOS envision us playing and the football Ten Hag would like us to play are not too different.



Personally I think we'll be seeing a departure "by mutual consent" in the summer.

I can't imagine he wants to go into next season with his contract running out, and we'd be mad to give him any assurances of an extension into a fourth season.

It seems likely reading some reports but who knows if they think like some on this forum and excuse him for everything we could be seeing him here next season too

 

[tomaldinho1]

Interesting to see if INEOS template of playing style that SJR mentioned in his interview they wish to see fits Ten Hag's vision.

Can't see that happening.

Ten Hag won't drop 2 years of his work to change a style of football for INEOS who may see different style to what us currently on display. Doesn't come across as a person/manager that will change.

Realistically how is it that different? Most CL chasing teams wants to do all the buzzwords 'play out form the back', 'control the midfield', 'high press', and you rarely get teams able to do all of those, and then you constantly evolve how you play given which signings you can get and how the league is developing.

 

[erikcred]

If he does survive the summer we can write Ineos off nice and early into their reign.

In that scenario would fully expect ETH to limp through enough of next season to ensure it’s another write off. Then they’ll sack him and replace him with another doomed candidate like Potter or Southgate.

It would be underwhelming for sure. Like what's the plan if we have bad luck again with injuries? Clearly ETH is not capable of getting performances out of our team without a perfectly fit and in-form spine of Onana, Shaw, Martinez and Hojlund.

 

[DWelbz19]

I see.

Basically well done to Ten Hag for performing miracles getting a makeshift defence functioning, but it's not his fault that the entire team play terrible football because he can only do so much.

I feel like I'm being gaslighted when I enter this thread

It's actually impressive. Their commitment to the bit is great.

 

[Oldyella]

My point was more around this utterly nonsense, baseless notion that he would somehow have a "free pass" next season if he survives past the summer.

He would start the season under immense pressure assuming this season finishes as it has been going on, nothing like a free pass.

Personally feel a clean break and allow a new appointment to start with a full pre season under the new structure is best for us. So long as its not Southgate.

 

[TsuWave]

Because that bad culture can permeate even new signings and academy graduates. I'd suggest we've seen as much with Sancho, who seemingly quite quickly found himself in a group of Rashford, Lingard and co.

It's also not the main point I'm making when it comes to assessing the squad. The reality is that the available squad this season has not been "largely Ten Hag's" by any definition.

Your point is hazy because you're ignoring the main points made to you in order to respond to minor elements of posts with "gotcha" type responses.

As I said (and as you ignored), this line of debate is pointless.

The biggest issue with Ten Hag is a stubbornness or inability to adapt his tactics to the hand he's been dealt in terms of player availability. Banging on about it being "his squad" quite literally obfuscates that because it moves focus onto squad makeup rather than, you know, the gaping hole in our midfield, game after game.

I mentioned all these points to you, but as with many others, you've persisted with finding any old shit to fling in his direction.

I listed the Mourinho players I remembered and how many were still starters - I thought their importance was being exaggerated - you then replied with a list including appearances and seasons, which was not what I was talking about. To clarify I asked you what your point was and this is what you said - "The point I'm making is that we've still got too many players leftover from a manager that was sacked over five years ago (or almost eight, in Martial's case)." You also said something about how some of these players would have been moved on in a well ran club long before it got to this stage. Your last paragraph broached on cultural issues at the club that can permeate new signings.

I then went over the 6 Mourinho players - and said that it's not entirely surprising that half of them are still here with how young they were when Mourinho was sacked as well as their contributions - out of those 6 Mourinho players; the starters are Shaw, Dalot and Rashford. Two of which are players that I said I'm not entirely surprised they're still here because of how young they were. Dalot is arguably the most improved player under Ten Hag, and Rashford - despite people often listing him as a bad actor (I don't believe it's merited) - has contributed the most in terms of goalscoring productivity under Ten Hag. I also said I don't believe many are arguing that United has been a well ran club, it hasn't - so I do agree that the other half of these "Mourinho players" should have been moved on

Lastly, I said that regarding the cultural issues (which was your last paragraph) - this squad is largely Ten Hag's - it is. But I'm not "banging on about" his squad in a vacuum. That was in direct response to you broaching cultural issues at the club. Yes, bad culture can permeate new signings but I added further context to the post by quoting something I find relevant to emphasise that I have no issues with buying/selling players, but I also have expectations regarding the manager. Why exactly should he stay and be given a new batch of most likely expensive players when he is showing that he can't lead people tactically or mentally? And if things improves after changing the entire core why should he be considered responsible for the improvement, logically the new players should get 100% of the praises?

Ten Hag has spoken extensively about setting standards and a new culture around the club. Are we saying he's failed/is failing here as well, then?

So what exactly did I do wrong here? How did I persist with finding any old shit to fling in his direction? Mind that, initially, it was you who replied about something other than what I was talking about. I've previously said that Ten Hag's shortcomings go beyond transfer/squad and that I find these discussions a sideshow. I've not tried to present transfers/squad as the "biggest issue with Ten Hag", so I don't know why you'd seemingly frame it as.

 

[hobbers]

The worst thing is, they can bin him this summer and we might still end up with one of those two. Funny that neither are being remotely linked with any other big clubs; it has to be us

Yeah but I could just about stomach giving Potter a go if we were going to be quick with jettisoning failed managers.

If we have a modern, intelligent approach to hiring and firing coaches then it's fine to take risks. ETH being one such risk and Potter would be another big one. ETH has failed massively, he's gone. Hire Potter, if there's no improvement, he's gone. Eventually you land on someone competent and continuity in philosophy is secured by Ashworth so there's no starting from zero each time.

 

[Plant0x84]

If he does survive the summer we can write Ineos off nice and early into their reign.

Parody.

 

[Alex99]

I listed the Mourinho players I remembered and how many were still starters - I thought their importance was being exaggerated - you then replied with a list including appearances and seasons, which was not what I was talking about. To clarify I asked you what your point was and this is what you said - "The point I'm making is that we've still got too many players leftover from a manager that was sacked over five years ago (or almost eight, in Martial's case)." You also said something about how some of these players would have been moved on in a well ran club long before it got to this stage. Your last paragraph broached on cultural issues at the club that can permeate new signings.

I then went over the 6 Mourinho players - and said that it's not entirely surprising that half of them are still here with how young they were when Mourinho was sacked as well as their contributions - out of those 6 Mourinho players; the starters are Shaw, Dalot and Rashford. Two of which are players that I said I'm not entirely surprised they're still here because of how young they were. Dalot is arguably the most improved player under Ten Hag, and Rashford - despite people often listing him as a bad actor (I don't believe it's merited) - has contributed the most in terms of goalscoring productivity under Ten Hag. I also said I don't believe many are arguing that United has been a well ran club, it hasn't - so I do agree that the other half of these "Mourinho players" should have been moved on

Lastly, I said that regarding the cultural issues (which was your last paragraph) - this squad is largely Ten Hag's - it is. But I'm not "banging on about" his squad in a vacuum. That was in direct response to you broaching cultural issues at the club. Yes, bad culture can permeate new signings but I added further context to the post by quoting something I find relevant to emphasise that I have no issues with buying/selling players, but I also have expectations regarding the manager. Why exactly should he stay and be given a new batch of most likely expensive players when he is showing that he can't lead people tactically or mentally? And if things improves after changing the entire core why should he be considered responsible for the improvement, logically the new players should get 100% of the praises?

Ten Hag has spoken extensively about setting standards and a new culture around the club. Are we saying he's failed/is failing here as well, then?

So what exactly did I do wrong here? How did I persist with finding any old shit to fling in his direction? Mind that, initially, it was you who replied about something other than what I was talking about. I've previously said that Ten Hag's shortcomings go beyond transfer/squad and that I find these discussions a sideshow. I've not tried to present transfers/squad as the "biggest issue with Ten Hag", so I don't know why you'd seemingly frame it as.

I have repeatedly, explicitly tried to move the discussion away from the "getting the manager sacked" line (that wasn't mine to begin with) and have twice called it a pointless debate, willing you to engage in another line of discussion.

I used the players mentioned as a basis to provide some additional context to our season, and even waived them as an excuse for the tactical problems we've been seeing.

Any comments I have made on "cultural issues" have been supplementary to other points, simply to try and draw a line under that particular discussion.

You have repeatedly tried to bring it back to cultural issues in order to be right about the squad being "largely Ten Hag's". In every way that matters this season, it isn't.

I will point out again, that concentrating on this point is absolutely obfuscating more pertinent criticisms you may have of Ten Hag and his tenure as manager.

If you do not wish to actually engage with anything else I've added (which is fine, I took the discussion on a tangent), just stop replying.

 

[hobbers]

Parody.

Ineos parodying the Glazers you mean?

 

[glazed]

Conflicting quotes from the same report. Reads like noise rather than substance.

Reads like they will sack him if he doesn't get Champions League. Lets not forget Glazers still own most of the club. They have consistently done that.

 

[Plant0x84]

Ineos parodying the Glazers you mean?

Nah, you parodying a Manchester United ‘fan’.

 

[crossy1686]

Do we?

We do not

 

[Plant0x84]

Reads like they will sack him if he doesn't get Champions League. Lets not forget Glazers still own most of the club. They have consistently done that.

Correct, indeed they have but this is INEOS’ gig now. Omar, sir Dave, sir Jim and presumably Dan will make that call when the new hierarchy is in place.

 

[matt10000]

I have repeatedly, explicitly tried to move the discussion away from the "getting the manager sacked" line (that wasn't mine to begin with) and have twice called it a pointless debate, willing you to engage in another line of discussion.

I used the players mentioned as a basis to provide some additional context to our season, and even waived them as an excuse for the tactical problems we've been seeing.

Any comments I have made on "cultural issues" have been supplementary to other points, simply to try and draw a line under that particular discussion.

You have repeatedly tried to bring it back to cultural issues in order to be right about the squad being "largely Ten Hag's". In every way that matters this season, it isn't.

I will point out again, that concentrating on this point is absolutely obfuscating more pertinent criticisms you may have of Ten Hag and his tenure as manager.

If you do not wish to actually engage with anything else I've added (which is fine, I took the discussion on a tangent), just stop replying.

……a very obfuscating word

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

When's the last time a team had to play 3 matches a week for 6 months straight? If you honestly think the match load after the WC was just another run of the mill thing that "elite athletes" just deal with, you are beyond hope. Is that actually what you think? Three football matches a week at the highest for almost 6 months straight right after a World Cup. Let that resonate in your head for a second before you go play FIFA.

That’s not an excuse for 13 months of poor tactics, with an amateur/unsustainable style of play.

 

[stevoc]

Are you really this bad at keeping track of the shit you spout?

It was highlighted to you that we tried to sell McTominay, indicating that he's not considered good enough.

Your retort to that was "he's the first name on the teamsheet" ignoring the fairly obvious reasons why he's getting game time ahead of a guy who's literally injured, a guy who's legs have gone and has a history of nearly dying on the pitch, and a guy we've loaned in as cover (and for a different role in the midfield).

I then (sarcastically) asked if it was complete fantasy that we tried to sell McTominay then, given his apparent status as a guaranteed first teamer.

No I have a hard time keeping track of shit that people imagine I have spouted mate. Which to be fair most people would.

I never at any point claimed Ten Hag wasn't open to selling Scott McTominay. So your post made no sense.

 

[Daydreamer]

When's the last time a team had to play 3 matches a week for 6 months straight? If you honestly think the match load after the WC was just another run of the mill thing that "elite athletes" just deal with, you are beyond hope. Is that actually what you think? Three football matches a week at the highest for almost 6 months straight right after a World Cup. Let that resonate in your head for a second before you go play FIFA.

Wasn’t the World Cup in the middle of the season for all teams?

 

[Escobar]

Blimey, another season of his shit-on-a-stick football... that would be genuinely awful. Please, no! Structure has nothing to do with that.

Structure plays a huge part. We had 5 or 6 managers, every one failed

 

[glazed]

Correct, indeed they have but this is INEOS’ gig now. Omar, sir Dave, sir Jim and presumably Dan will make that call when the new hierarchy is in place.

They will but the Glazers will have to be taken into account and they have made that a red line in the past. Personally I would keep ETH but if he misses Champions League I think he's gone.That's the mood music post Fulham.

 

[Alex99]

No I have a hard time keeping track of shit that people imagine I have spouted mate. Which to be fair most people would.

I never at any point claimed Ten Hag wasn't open to selling Scott McTominay. So your post made no sense.

...you literally said that he was one of the "first names on the team sheet" when it was pointed out that he isn't seen as a good fit, as evidenced by us trying to sell him.

What point were you making with that response?