Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Now don't get me wrong I still blame ETH. I'm just saying there is a reason why all managers end up playing the same football and Utd do have traditions that no manager can change

Van Gaal played an insipid possession style football, Jose often played with 10 men behind the ball against any half decent side and Ole's teams played counter attacking football while happy playing a very low back line to accommodate Maguire and de Gea. So it’s never been a single mandate to play United football.

Ten Hag has still hasn’t managed to solve how to play counter pressing style while not leaving huge gaps between the forward line that wants to burst through and a back 4 that aren’t committed to playing as high a line as that demands. This is why we have so many successful ball carries by opposing midfielders and decoy runs from midfield going completely unchecked. At some point this stubborn donkey needs to realize that he’d have more success implementing a possession based approach that contracts the pitch than one that leaves a gap as large as the Grand Canyon in the middle of the pitch.
 
Success is being in the top 4 at the very least regularly, challenging for the league, and winning a trophy. 9/10 teams in the EPL praised for the possesion best style have done none of those things since then started.

I agree being dominated by most team possesion wise at hold is inacceptable, if mitigating circumstances don't exist.


For all the displeasure we may or may not feel towards ETHs coaching. It's a fact for most of the last 20 EpL rounds of football Mctominay (top scorer, but should a left this summer), fringe player Hannibal and Bruno have been his ONLY reliably fit midfielders for all those rounds. He has in turn been deprived of Casemiro, Mainoo, Mount and Eriksen for 2-3 months each due to injury. Plus had Amrabat arrive on loan injured then get injured on and off again. Not to mention the out of plans Van De beek who has ALSO been injured. Yet that is just cataloging injury to midfield alone. Not counting defence (over 12 cbs pairs used) and attack. I'm of the view is kinda hard to create a consistent possession based style with the quality that has been available week to week in our midfield department this term.



Its a marvel we aren't like two places below Pochetino's Chelsea.
It depends on the club, a team like Brighton wouldn't define its success by these standards.
 
Van Gaal played an insipid possession style football, Jose often played with 10 men behind the ball against any half decent side and Ole's teams played counter attacking football while happy playing a very low back line to accommodate Maguire and de Gea. So it’s never been a single mandate to play United football.

Ten Hag has still hasn’t managed to solve how to play counter pressing style while not leaving huge gaps between the forward line that wants to burst through and a back 4 that aren’t committed to playing as high a line as that demands. This is why we have so many successful ball carries by opposing midfielders and decoy runs from midfield going completely unchecked. At some point this stubborn donkey needs to realize that he’d have more success implementing a possession based approach that contracts the pitch than one that leaves a gap as large as the Grand Canyon in the middle of the pitch.
It does sometimes feel that the last three permanent managers have just been slight variations on a particular style of football though. I really hope the next manager can sort the midfield out and try to get us to play some nice football with good build up play and a measure of control and dominance.

As boring as it was i do feel LVG was the only manager that really tried to shake things up though and do something different. The difference between Ole and Jose was a quicker approach to attacking by the former but it still felt it came from the same place of always being the plucky underdog against big teams. I recall Jose trying very hard to make Lukaku into more of his type of striker and Pogba as a deeper playmaker and apart from little flashes (vs Arsenal or Rashford's two goals against Liverpool) it didn't work and was boring. When i think of Ole i think of Mcfred and that Lindelof pass over the top for Rashford to chase, and similarly when i think of EtH i'm going to remember those kicks into space for the forward to chase. It's just not inspiring and the proof is in the goals scored column each season.
 
It depends on the club, a team like Brighton wouldn't define its success by these standards.
True. But we are discussing Manchester United. If one attempts to make any comparison between the two as partains to playing style, they'd do well to remember the caveat of different levels of pressure and result expectation between the two cases. That is why even as a big fan of Postecoglu myself I'm wary of the comparisons many are quick to make about his first 6 months at Spurs as compared to ETHs 18 at United. Too many blatantly ignore the obvious caveats and the fact Ange is still to get any where near what ETH was able to his first 6 months and year in the United hot seat, overall
 
True. But we are discussing Manchester United. If one attempts to make any comparison between the two as partains to playing style, they'd do well to remember the caveat of different levels of pressure and result expectation between the two cases. That is why even as a big fan of Postecoglu myself I'm wary of the comparisons many are quick to make about his first 6 months at Spurs as compared to ETHs 18 at United. Too many blatantly ignore the obvious caveats and the fact Ange is still to get any where near what ETH was able to his first 6 months and year in the United hot seat, overall
I don't think not being able to hold the ball better in certain home games, never mind away trips, can be justified. My expectations aren't even that high in terms of possession, just don't be toyed around at OT
 
You're right there is a playing pattern.

However, it's actually what's killing this team and I'm surprised fans and the media have been so blind to the tactics. It's putting our players in impossible situations, yet their getting roasted for lacking quality. Ten Haag's tactics have actually been setting them up for failure this season.

Firstly, it's too fluid. Players are always trying to move into positions that leave them completely vulnerable on the counter. It also leaves them in poor positions to counter attack as well, as players are poorly positioned consistently. This is why there are so many gaps and why the spaces between players can be so wide. It's an issue of fluidity. In fact, our midfield and defence have looked so horrible as a result of fluidity in these zones. Centre backs moving to full back zones when on the ball, full backs moving into centre midfield and noone covering them. It makes it difficult to recover the ball from counterattacking situations when players are positioned that way, because it always leaves us disorganized out of possession. City and Arsenal have far more structure in these zones. Stones still pretty much stays central and plays as an extra DM, whilst the full backs tuck in so that they are still solid at the back. In addition, Pep is much better at employing machination of this manner than ETH, so he can make that work in England. Its not an easy tactic to employ. It may have worked for Ten Haag in a much slower and less physical Eredivisie, but its leaving our defence exposed in England.

Secondly, our current midfield shape is ridiculous. 4141 worked for City because they knew how to properly employ inverted full backs. Zinchenko was essentially a midfielder, as was Delph. They could support Rodri/Fernandinho when required. In addition, they were still more compact and much better at covering positions. City were also playing at a slower pace with keeping the ball being imperative. There were always enough players behind the ball to cover in case of the counter, as they were both compact and deliberate....the exact opposite of what we are.

Thirdly, Our pressing is ridiculous, particularly for the shape of our team. There isn't enough cover to press that highly and not win back the ball. In addition, we don't play as high a line as we should, which leaves the opposition with loads of space to attack us when we don't recover on the initial press.

Fourthly, our shape leaves our DM completely isolated. It also presents a gap between Defence and attack as in possession, the DM is not able to make up the gap in midfield on his own. Out of possession, it leave the DM completely exposed.

Hence we can't progress the ball forward because players aren't in great positions in the build up, our attackers are too far away from our defenders who have the ball and there are too many gaps in the shape, leaving our players constantly surrounded. However, fans will ask " why can't we play well in possession...Bruno". It's not Bruno, it's the tactics.

We have massive gaps due to too much fluidity, being far too wide and having a massive gap between our DM's his midfield partners. Again, this is put on players like Casemiro, when it's actually a tactical flaw. It worked in Holland because Ajax always had the physical and technical advantage to either win the first press or recover. However in England, the levels are far higher and the pace as far more.

We don't create chances because we don't have a sustainable plan of attack. Yes our wingers are selfish, but for our manager to not have a route to Hojlund is ridiculous.

We don't score goals....because we don't create chances. Yet people here talked about Hojlund and how having Kane would change everything. It would not. Ronaldo was the sign of what would happen to Kane. Fans would complain about his lack of pressing and blame him for our inability to gain possession, whilst expecting him to score every chance he gets.

Some of our players have technical flaws, but at the moment we suck because our manager sucks. It's there in the games, but noone wants to call it out because they think the Ajax connection makes Ten Haag much better than he is.

I agree with the majority of this, as I think quite a few people on here will, but I have a tangential question. ETH is vastly more experienced than any of us on here. Why wouldn't he be seeing this, or if he is, what's going wrong in the implementation?
 
I agree with the majority of this, as I think quite a few people on here will, but I have a tangential question. ETH is vastly more experienced than any of us on here. Why wouldn't he be seeing this, or if he is, what's going wrong in the implementation?

If the players aren't good enough but the manager still wants to play his way... This is what happens
 
He's pretty much in the same position now that LVG was in the second half of his final season.

Everyone knows he's the wrong man for the job, but there's very little point in replacing him for the sake of a few months (particularly as it would involve a greater payout)

Stick with him, if by some miracle he turns it around we keep him. If not we get rid in the summer with a lower payout.

The only difference I think is that LVG was still in with a strong chance of taking us to top 4 in January, and was probably the safer bet over an interim.
 
He's pretty much in the same position now that LVG was in the second half of his final season.

Everyone knows he's the wrong man for the job, but there's very little point in replacing him for the sake of a few months (particularly as it would involve a greater payout)

Stick with him, if by some miracle he turns it around we keep him. If not we get rid in the summer with a lower payout.

The only difference I think is that LVG was still in with a strong chance of taking us to top 4 in January, and was probably the safer bet over an interim.
The only real benefits to sacking him now are fan sanity so they don't have to put up with this garbage football for another half season, and if we managed to get the top target manager in, then we'd have half a season to train and implement his system without midweek distractions with no European football. Might get that anyway next season at this rate.

But other than that, from a long term approach, it makes sense to just sit with it until we sort everything out above him and have our target list and can actually get them. I'll definitely still complain about him weekly though.
 
I no longer think he's the right man for the job but the players we have its not beyond them to hit a purple patch on go on a run which would save his job.
 
The tactics stop that because ETH set's the team up to fail.
Yes.

The upside of this is that if he changes tactics it could still happen. And if he stops doing his mistakes that would look good for himself as well.
 
He's pretty much in the same position now that LVG was in the second half of his final season.

Everyone knows he's the wrong man for the job, but there's very little point in replacing him for the sake of a few months (particularly as it would involve a greater payout)

Stick with him, if by some miracle he turns it around we keep him. If not we get rid in the summer with a lower payout.

The only difference I think is that LVG was still in with a strong chance of taking us to top 4 in January, and was probably the safer bet over an interim.
That's not at all what happened with LVG. He was still within a shot of getting top 4, unlike ETH. Though we had regressed from the previous season (due to, funnily enough, a change of formation and personnel) it wasn't by much. He fecked up the results and got sacked accordingly for finishing 5th. We were playing crap football on top of that, but if he had got results, who knows. It's hypothetical though.

ETH got results last season, but anyone saying we played good football is deluded. It was functional, pragmatic but not good. We rarely blew teams away, and much like this season, often got embarrassed by other sides or ceeded possession even at home. This season has been even worse than LVG's second in terms of regression, results and style of play. The fact he hasn't been sacked is a testament to how badly this club is ran.
 
He's pretty much in the same position now that LVG was in the second half of his final season.

Everyone knows he's the wrong man for the job, but there's very little point in replacing him for the sake of a few months (particularly as it would involve a greater payout)

Stick with him, if by some miracle he turns it around we keep him. If not we get rid in the summer with a lower payout.

The only difference I think is that LVG was still in with a strong chance of taking us to top 4 in January, and was probably the safer bet over an interim.

I think a lot of his tenure is mirroring LVG.

Players leaving, squad needing an overhaul, replacements not being up to much, young players being thrown in because of injury, the relatively slow and predictably boring paint by numbers approach to football.. etc etc.

All he needs is an FA cup this season and it'll be history repeating itself.
 
A friend of mine that is not a fan of any club in particular and is casually invested in football, which is to say he is still very familiar but doesn't really get involved in the minutae, told me today that he can't believe that this manager hasn't been sacked yet after so many failures and asked me what's going on.

I didn't know what to tell him, so I just said we can't afford to. Even people like that have come seen through this fraud.
 
I think a lot of his tenure is mirroring LVG.

Players leaving, squad needing an overhaul, replacements not being up to much, young players being thrown in because of injury, the relatively slow and predictably boring paint by numbers approach to football.. etc etc.

All he needs is an FA cup this season and it'll be history repeating itself.
Is there something in the water over at The Netherlands? Why have we hired two that are insanely stubborn?
 
I think a lot of his tenure is mirroring LVG.

Players leaving, squad needing an overhaul, replacements not being up to much, young players being thrown in because of injury, the relatively slow and predictably boring paint by numbers approach to football.. etc etc.

All he needs is an FA cup this season and it'll be history repeating itself.
Extremely poor goal scoring is another comparison; it will be interesting to see if we can match LVG's appalling 49 goals from that season or do even worse (we're on 24 goals in 21 matches so far). Hojlund and Martial are another good comparisons in terms of the price tag and expectations in their first season though I think Martial was a far better player at that age.

For some reason i really like both managers and I want/wanted them to succeed but it's looking more unlikely. History does seem to be repeating.
 
I'm surprised the recent quotes from Brian Brobbey haven't been brought up here.

From Der Telegraaf:
Speaking to Der Telegraaf, the player said, "Erik ten Hag called me and said that at United, my agent would get millions of euros and I could earn a multiple of my Ajax salary. But our decision was clear: we wanted to go to Ajax."

https://www.goal.com/en-us/lists/ma...2-phone-call-erik-ten-hag/blt87723a20e74d61f3

I believe this is the same agency that we've signed multiple players from under ETH, which his son is also connected to.

If true, surely this is textbook embezzlement? Not sure how anybody can defend this.
 
Extremely poor goal scoring is another comparison; it will be interesting to see if we can match LVG's appalling 49 goals from that season or do even worse (we're on 24 goals in 21 matches so far). Hojlund and Martial are another good comparisons in terms of the price tag and expectations in their first season though I think Martial was a far better player at that age.

For some reason i really like both managers and I want/wanted them to succeed but it's looking more unlikely. History does seem to be repeating.
At least LVG had a clear style that was evident, unlike ETH where its a half arsed high press and then chaos.
 
Extremely poor goal scoring is another comparison; it will be interesting to see if we can match LVG's appalling 49 goals from that season or do even worse (we're on 24 goals in 21 matches so far). Hojlund and Martial are another good comparisons in terms of the price tag and expectations in their first season though I think Martial was a far better player at that age.

For some reason i really like both managers and I want/wanted them to succeed but it's looking more unlikely. History does seem to be repeating.
LVG was likeable because he has an actual personality and is hilarious. ETH has the personality of a brick.
 
Is there something in the water over at The Netherlands? Why have we hired two that are insanely stubborn?

Dutch managers always just seem to be insanely stubborn?

I've stayed out of here for a while, I've defended ETH a lot. I do like the way he has ousted players and tried to set some standards.

But, for me everything is just too slow, players in possession sometimes seem stuck to rules on where to be and when to move and are generally too far apart in possession. Ball moves too slowly, player off the ball movement is too slow, it's all just too slow and too predictable and too easy to get bodies back and defend.


When you sit back and look at it, it just seems the Dutch style of football/coaching just doesn't translate well to English football. Outside of Martin Jol, there's not been a Dutch manager in the PL who's actually had a team play some semi decent football and done well. And I think even Spurs got rid of him for 'Arry.
 
It does sometimes feel that the last three permanent managers have just been slight variations on a particular style of football though. I really hope the next manager can sort the midfield out and try to get us to play some nice football with good build up play and a measure of control and dominance.

As boring as it was i do feel LVG was the only manager that really tried to shake things up though and do something different. The difference between Ole and Jose was a quicker approach to attacking by the former but it still felt it came from the same place of always being the plucky underdog against big teams. I recall Jose trying very hard to make Lukaku into more of his type of striker and Pogba as a deeper playmaker and apart from little flashes (vs Arsenal or Rashford's two goals against Liverpool) it didn't work and was boring. When i think of Ole i think of Mcfred and that Lindelof pass over the top for Rashford to chase, and similarly when i think of EtH i'm going to remember those kicks into space for the forward to chase. It's just not inspiring and the proof is in the goals scored column each season.

The problem with Ole (for me at least) was always that A.) he was never able/refused to fully sort out a top DM and CM to play with Pogba and B.) he didn't seem to know how to coach a build up structure from the back. We'd have to sit back constantly in big games because every top team knew they could press us relentlessly and force mistakes so instead we were forced to have to play super direct and counter them instead of trying to play through the press. So we'd just stick McFred in a pivot and have them just run around constantly in front of a deep back line and hope Bruno/Pogba could find an outlet for us to break.

As much as I had issues and was fed up with Ole, the one credit I'll give him is that it did seem like we were coached on some actual patterns in how to counter attack
 
I agree with the majority of this, as I think quite a few people on here will, but I have a tangential question. ETH is vastly more experienced than any of us on here. Why wouldn't he be seeing this, or if he is, what's going wrong in the implementation?

As fans, I believe we overestimate him. We overestimate his tactical ingenuity, ability to change, and vision for the club as a whole. For me, it's all about the Ajax connection. People will go to great lengths to prove he is as good as they think he is because they believe Ajax is an aesthetically superior football brand. If Ten Haag had accomplished his Ajax success at Sporting or Lyon, I doubt we'd be having as many people defending him. It's the same reason Mason Mount has been entirely ignored after only a few games for us, yet it took fans over two years to stop believing in VDB.

The idea is that, if he's played good football before, he should be able to replicate it. Yet our fans aren't truly understanding the gulf in quality between the Premier League and the Eredivisie. You're playing against some of the best players and managers in the world. They are used to facing certain challenges on the pitch and aren't as easily overrawed as teams in the Eredivisie were. Managers in England have to account for pace, technicality, physicality and consistently changing tactics. It's not simply about having ideas to play pretty patterns. It's about creating tactical set ups to account for the pace and physicality of the league. It's about being flexible and having different plans. It's about squad management and accounting for injuries given the amount of games played and the physicality of them. It's about ensuring Premier League standard fitness levels. It's about knowing how to use the squad available to you and not dumping and blaming players on account of not being perfectly suited for your tactical set up. It's about communicating effectively. Most importantly, it's about having urgency to ensure that gaps are covered/fixed as quickly as possible. Ten Haag hasn't shown he actually has the skillset to keep up with the requirements of managing a top club in a top league over his two year stint.

He completely falls apart in big away games, he puts out physically weaker midfield set ups and expects success, the pace United play with on the ball is slow and tepid, he hasn't shown flexibility in tactical approach both in game and from game to game. The poor fitness level's we've had and inability to keep the squad fit has been quite apparent. He's also been unable to use players available to succeed, the league doesn't allow a team to have an excuse of injuries, as that should be expected and the tactical plan should be strong enough to account for that. He's had multiple instances where he has been unable to use players available to him and hasn't even tried to alter his tactical approach to fit them in. Ronaldo last year was an example. Fans are happy with how he handled it after Ronaldo's strop. However, my concern is his use of him priro to that. The argument surrounding Ronaldo's pressing was a failure on Ten Haag's ability to adapt, and for me suggests that he can only play with a particular type of striker. He isn't skilled or flexible enough to adapt to having different types of players. He has also shown weaknesses in communication, as there have been articles about players not understanding and getting what he wants on the pitch. People love to call our players dumb, however for me, that's evidence that the teacher isn't doing a good job of actually getting them to execute the plan. In addition, I do think there's a barrier in language that might make his communication different to what it was at Ajax. Most importantly for me, this preseason, last preseason; the failure to test tactical set ups, the failure to get players prepared, the failure to account for a plan b and even his transfers in the market ( Mount coming in didn't account for a plan b formation if the 4141 failed) highlight naivety and a lack of urgency from the Manager, similar to what we saw with Ole at the start of 20/21. The league is intense and you can fall out of the title race in the opening weeks. Ten Haag doesn't seem to have that sense of urgency.
 
LVG was likeable because he has an actual personality and is hilarious. ETH has the personality of a brick.
Ye he was a laughing stock. That’s what he was. ETH talks more serious but I’ve seen him crack jokes in interviews before.
 
Ye he was a laughing stock. That’s what he was. ETH talks more serious but I’ve seen him crack jokes in interviews before.

I couldn't endure watching a full interview of Ten Hag. He's just a very boring person, and he never says anything worthy to listen to. Same old crap.

Meanwhile I can listen to Pep Guardiola talking all day no problem.

Charisma is something you either born with or not though so won't hold it against him.

I do agree LVG was a laughing stock and not in a good way.
 
I want to give him a chance under the new football owners of our club
 
Seriously?...pretty much every other manager in the premier league would do a better job. In fact I would argue we would be no worse off in terms of league position if we didn't even have a ft manager and just let the players get on with it themselves. Recruitment has been woeful, physical conditioning incredibly poor and tactically we are the worst in the league.

Completely agree with this as I said in my last post.
 
A lot can change to make him perform better.
For a start, a better performance by a few attacking players, will immediately make an impact.
Lisandro coming back is a huge difference maker for our build up play, hopefully Casemiro will stay fit.
It's not difficult to imagine a drastic improvement in performances with Casemiro and Mainoo in midfield and Licha/Varane at CB pair.

If you claim that one player doesn't make a difference in a team, clearly you know absolutely nothing about football. Just watch City without KDB and with KDB now.
 
It's not difficult to imagine a drastic improvement in performances with Casemiro and Mainoo in midfield and Licha/Varane at CB pair.
It really is. Especially considering we didn't look good even with most players fit. It's just blind faith and praying for a miracle at this point.
 
A lot can change to make him perform better.
For a start, a better performance by a few attacking players, will immediately make an impact.
Lisandro coming back is a huge difference maker for our build up play, hopefully Casemiro will stay fit.
It's not difficult to imagine a drastic improvement in performances with Casemiro and Mainoo in midfield and Licha/Varane at CB pair.

If you claim that one player doesn't make a difference in a team, clearly you know absolutely nothing about football. Just watch City without KDB and with KDB now.
Martinez has become our most overrated player ever while he's been injured. Let's hope we're as good as everyone says with him back.
 
Martinez has become our most overrated player ever while he's been injured. Let's hope we're as good as everyone says with him back.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder. You even see it with Ten Hag in between breaks. Post-game everyone is frothing at the mouth about wanting him sacked, then without a game we start discussing, “well maybe if Ten Hag does this, maybe if he does that, let’s give him a chance, etc” and then we play the next game and we’re crap, and the cycle starts over. But to Martinez’ credit, he will definitely improve us.
 
I'm surprised the recent quotes from Brian Brobbey haven't been brought up here.

From Der Telegraaf:


I believe this is the same agency that we've signed multiple players from under ETH, which his son is also connected to.

If true, surely this is textbook embezzlement? Not sure how anybody can defend this.

I had no idea his son was involved with the agency that has since become our most influential one.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/09/19/manc...-involvement-of-erik-ten-hags-agent-19519885/

The longer guy continues at the helm, the more I feel he's completely deluded, out of his depth and needs to be got rid.
 
I'm surprised the recent quotes from Brian Brobbey haven't been brought up here.

From Der Telegraaf:


I believe this is the same agency that we've signed multiple players from under ETH, which his son is also connected to.

If true, surely this is textbook embezzlement? Not sure how anybody can defend this.

Christ. They've really made the most of their time here, lined up their pockets left right and center
 
Christ. They've really made the most of their time here, lined up their pockets left right and center
Somewhat undermines the defense for ETH that he doesn't agree fees or wages, when his son and favourite agency is doing just that.
 
I couldn't endure watching a full interview of Ten Hag. He's just a very boring person, and he never says anything worthy to listen to. Same old crap.

Meanwhile I can listen to Pep Guardiola talking all day no problem.

Charisma is something you either born with or not though so won't hold it against him.

I do agree LVG was a laughing stock and not in a good way.

Still haven't watched a full interview from ETH. Probably the most boring manager in the league
 
Martinez has become our most overrated player ever while he's been injured. Let's hope we're as good as everyone says with him back.

Yeah, I mean I think he's good but he also has been ripped apart by attackers in the EPL. He won't make that much of a difference but players become world class when they're not playing
 
I'm surprised the recent quotes from Brian Brobbey haven't been brought up here.

From Der Telegraaf:


I believe this is the same agency that we've signed multiple players from under ETH, which his son is also connected to.

If true, surely this is textbook embezzlement? Not sure how anybody can defend this.

I'm more concerned about Ten Hag apparently wanting to sign Brian Brobbey tbh.
 
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