There's a good tactical video just posted which highlights the very issue, last season the team created more chances from counter attacks as the team were more narrow in occupying attacking spaces. The reason Garnacho has had success this season is because he's more suited to the wider role where he can progress the ball when being isolated with a fullback. The primary issue this season has been the new system and shape not accomodating a multitude of players strength. The midfield doesn't cover the spaces in the defence when the team needs to absorb pressure and even when Mount was playing he was ineffective at impacting the play outside of the press.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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There's a good tactical video just posted which highlights the very issue, last season the team created more chances from counter attacks as the team were more narrow in occupying attacking spaces. The reason Garnacho has had success this season is because he's more suited to the wider role where he can progress the ball when being isolated with a fullback. The primary issue this season has been the new system and shape not accomodating a multitude of players strength. The midfield doesn't cover the spaces in the defence when the team needs to absorb pressure and even when Mount was playing he was ineffective at impacting the play outside of the press.
You can read this all the time about all kinds of United players in here but do you guys really, sincerely believe that is the cause of the problem?
I mean, unprofessionalism and greed aside which you just accuse Rashford of, how does any player benefit financially from playing bad? Let Rashford put in another season like last years and he could negotiate a pay rise much earlier. Your wage depends on the demand for you and you maximize that by playing as good as possible.
They benefit after they’ve already got the pay rise and then they don’t even have to put in 50% on the pitch. It’s purely unprofessional and greed. That’s the main cause and you see it with a lot of footballers.
I think that's a consoiracy theory. Even if he was greedy it would be in his best financial interest to play as good as possible.
Yes that would be true If he wanted a move. But he’s happy to sit on 375k a week and do nothing. We never learn, we offer massive wages for players that have 1 good season rather than offering it to players that show they can have some consistency and have a few decent seasons in a row.
I am inclined to agree. The wheel is turning slowly, but in the right direction. I feel optimistic - not wildly optimistic, just optimistic - about our chances V Spurs. 'Mate' only knows how to throw players forward and if we counter well we can get at them. Get a good result and set the tone for the rest of the season. Not being involved in Europe and League Cup is a blessing in disguise. We can concentrate on climbing the table and going far in the FA cup. Season is not a write off and changes at board level will pay dividends soon. Happy 2024 to all Utd fans
️I think it’s kinda wild to accuse an academy graduate Manchester United fan of not caring/being greedy/a bad egg - especially when as mentioned by others; it’s in the best interest of said player to play as well as possible - and the fact that said player carried the team just last season. Even wilder that the same poster turns around and argues in favour of sticking with a random underperforming Dutch manager
Yep, exactly what I was trying to say. People actively wanting to get rid of our best academy player in years, accusing him of playing bad on purpose, being the dressing room cancer, all because he's having a bad season. But when it comes to the manager, same people want to protect him at all costs and use every excuse under the sun for him.
I'm not trying to defend Rashford's performances this season but it shows again how weird our fans are about the manager. Zero loyalty to the club and the players but the manager is untouchable.
Something I can't get my head around at all. It's like they care more about the manager than the wellbeing of the club they supposedly support. Totally backwards thinking
I want them both gone, ETH is not good enough and while Rashford had a good streak a year ago he's not good enough to start for us either.
That's not backwards, that's just stupid. It has never been the right thing to support the manager over the club you are fan of.
Seems a really stupid ‘debate’.
It’s also possible to support the manager because you support the club.
As well as hundreds of different combinations of thought processes.
People are complicated, and different, boiling things down to a binary position is invariably stupid
Thanks for supporting our point. We are critical of the "back the manager at all costs" thinking which is exactly the kind of binary thinking you also dislike.
It is possible but our fanbase in particular is very weird about managers. Every underperforming, clearly not good enough manager was given full support and standing ovations by the fans until their very last game. It's like we're trying too hard to show we're "true" supporters or something but somehow that only extends to the manager. Even right now the general sentiment is that everyone at the club can feck off but only the manager position is controversial.
I think most people now realise that he's not the Messiah but there are bigger problems to fix at the club first. It will probably take at least a year to see signs of improvement in our recruitment and be free of our FFP shackles.
By the time that's all sorted ETH will be on the last year of his contract.
Admittedly he's not been stellar in his team selection and in game management (and i know in many other areas too before before i get shouted down) but we get rid of him now we're generating chaos in that area and won't focus on the others.
The main thing is to take away any idea that he has leadership in recruitment. Let him feel like he still has a veto since it doesn't matter. Mitchell and Blanc can just say in the summer "we're buying a long term prospect - your contract currently finishes in a year"
By the time that's all sorted ETH will be on the last year of his contract.
Admittedly he's not been stellar in his team selection and in game management (and i know in many other areas too before before i get shouted down) but we get rid of him now we're generating chaos in that area and won't focus on the others.
The main thing is to take away any idea that he has leadership in recruitment. Let him feel like he still has a veto since it doesn't matter. Mitchell and Blanc can just say in the summer "we're buying a long term prospect - your contract currently finishes in a year"
Even though I disagree , I get why fans think ETH is a failure or should be sacked. But some of you are unhealthily obsessed with sacking the managers.
You don’t seem to get why fans don’t share your own views and seem to be going around making up whatever narrative you have decided must be the case. You are talking nonsense, I suggest you go back to just complaining about ETH, you’d be a terrible psychologist.
It's not a narrative. Manchester United fans have a weird obsession with managers. Case in point.
Yeah, it doesn’t have to be an either/or situation here. Rashford is way too inconsistent with an extremely low bottom level to be relied upon or to secure the status he has within the squad IMO. EtH also doesn’t seem capable of getting his methods/tactics across, irrespective of the injury crisis (& I’ve been quite lenient on him wrt the injuries). But there are the odd signs of things happening but in general, it’s pretty much an mis-mash of a lot of shite with no consistency. I don’t blame those wanting him out, even though I’m almost perfectly “on that fence”.
I find it all the more remarkable that people look at Uniteds consistent failings for 11 years and convince themselves we just need the right manager. That’s just being stupid at this stage.
We've won trophies under the current regime so that doesn't really make sense does it? I'm pretty sure people would still be saying this if we'd had Big Sam, Roy, Dyche and Lampard as our managers though.
Except nobody thinks we just need the right manager. Talk about making up a narrative.
You say "obsession with sacking managers" as if it wasn't proven to be the right decision 100% of the time we made it. In fact, you could easily make a case that it should have been done sooner in every single instance.
Yep better players and a better manager.
Better value when negotiating for players. Better at selling players to help with FFP. Better professional structure around the managers/players to help them build a squad and a winning culture. Better long term squad management from club regardless of manager. Better decisions made on player contract extensions.
Asides from that, yes we want our managers/players to do better and be better.
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You could always start by saying how is any of that wrong. Fans think sacking the manager is the worst thing imaginable until we do exactly that then everyone pretty much agrees it was the right thing to do.
Ok I will bite. Your entire focus is on the manager. You may say nobody is saying it’s the only problem , but it’s the only thing you talk about. If you only talk about the manager being the problem you aren’t really understanding the clubs issue. The club issues beyond managers affect how our managers and team performs.
Due to how dysfunctional the club has been, the recruitment strategy’s under every manager badly affects newer managers. Before any manager takes over United, they have a handicap that no other manager at a major club has to navigate.
United sacking managers has so far changed little, but You can’t prove that “sacking a manager was 100% correct”, that’s just a throw out line that means nothing. Sacking Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole haven’t led to better , they’ve led to a consistent trend of mediocrity.
When United have had chances to push on with managers, the club has reeled in spending which totally undermined the managers and any ambition in the squad.
We tried replacing managers: it doesn’t solve anything. What we did not try is backing the manager so he can follow through on raising standards at MU.
If you don’t work hard or show poor attitude, you don’t belong at MU. Sancho is gone, I’d bench Rashford until he starts running like his life depends on it.
Stop making excuses for players: we can all see Rashford is not trying his hardest.
I want a manager who is ruthless. If Ten Hag isn’t, by all means replace him with someone who is. He did the right thing with Sancho; now do so with Rashford.
If you don’t work hard or show poor attitude, you don’t belong at MU. Sancho is gone, I’d bench Rashford until he starts running like his life depends on it.
Stop making excuses for players: we can all see Rashford is not trying his hardest.
I want a manager who is ruthless. If Ten Hag isn’t, by all means replace him with someone who is. He did the right thing with Sancho; now do so with Rashford.
Says it all that Chelsea, who have been a complete and utter mess this season, have leap frogged us on the table on goal difference. If he loses to Spurs tomorrow there's only the FA Cup to play for and it's only January. Miserable season under this guy.
Chelsea make far more chances than us. They are pretty unlucky to only be 8th whereas as we're fortunate to be 9th based on performances.
What do you mean it's the only thing I talk about? What is there really to say about the rest of the structure. There isn't much that we can directly observe aside from the obvious. Recruitment strategy has been terrible but even there the manager has a big say at this club. You think because people want the manager out that they don't think there are problems elsewhere, false equivalence.
If you believe sacking managers has changed little, can you say which manager we should have stuck with? We've had two appointments at most that even made any sense. One didn't work out and one is currently showing he isn't up to the task either.
The part about United managers having a handicap that no other managers have is total nonsense. Where does this idea that United is the only club with issues come from I don't know. It's not even close to being true. In fact, at most other clubs managers are expected to work with what they have, with the squad they have inherited. It's only at United that we talk about every manager needing hundreds of millions of signings to do anything. We give managers way too much power and treat them better than 99.99% of clubs do. ETH in particular has been backed more than most managers can dream of.
Honestly, our best hope isn’t a manager, it’s INEOS restructuring. If that doesn’t work out we wont compete with the top clubs.
I won’t waste anymore time correcting you. You don’t get it and I’m not spending anymore time explaining the same things over and over again.
Aka you have no real arguments.
No both teams are where they deserve to be. Chelsea are awful and don't deserve to be any higher than they are. And still, we're behind them, with a real chance of being 10th or 11th by the end of these gameweeks. Which is about right. Weve been terrible all season, mostly even when weve won. Its a gruelling season and only returning players can salvage it, but I fear it wont make a difference. People seem to forget casemiro was fit and well earlier in the season too
Xg etc tells a far different story. Or just watching them compared to us. Don't base everything on results.
Also still likely to be in the league cup final.
Yeh, you go with that….
I wont get into expected goals. Im not basing it on results, Ive watched them plenty and they often look as disjointed and terrible as we do. Their perforamce at old trafford was as bad or worse than anything weve seen post ferguson, it was actually embarrassing at times. As I said in my post, compared to us I put them slightly above us in the table, but think its mad to suggest they deserve to be up around 6th or 7th, ahead of west ham and brighton.
This is nonsense, every new manager of every club takes on the previous managers or regimes players, yes they change them in time if they’re lucky but they work with the players they have. You’d swear ten hag took over some championship team expected to win the premier league the way some defend him.
Aswell as that he has been backed financially more than any previous United manger and probably more than any new manager at a club anywhere, yet what we’ve brought in had not been better than what has been replaced or has not been good enough full stop.
you keep going on about structure and replying to posters in the most condescending way imaginable as if only you are able to see what’s happening. Everyone knows the structure at United is not great and the biggest mistake it looks at the moment is trusting ten hag with money to get players he wanted. How you thinks someone else buying players for him to work with will create better play and results I have no idea, he can’t work with the ones he wanted.
Very interesting.
I've seen stats about our recoveries high up the field and the counterpressing during this season, where we were the best team or 2nd at times. But at the same time we're consistenly one of the teams conceding more shots in the league, with only four teams at the moment conceding more shots than us. So once our high pressing is beaten we're all over the place. It's like all or nothing there.
It's actually suspicious that for some periods we've been recovering the ball high up the field more than the likes of City, Liverpool, Arsenal who have been training for years under their managers. So I'm not sure if being 1st there (while being so bad everywhere else) is something positive or the sign that we're not balanced and putting 'too much' emphasis there. Maybe we're committing too many players forward, allowing us a higher chance to recover the ball after a loss but leaving us weak in numbers if the press is not successful.
It could be our midfielders (or midfielder, normally isolated) and defenders not being good enough at putting out the flames in those 'open field' situations, or compressing space, all helped by the injuries. But if that's the case why insisting with it all season if tendencies remain the same? The only thing he does is hurting this players' confidence. I don't see any sort of improvement despite doing the same all season. We're playing 'heads or tails' football with no benefit.
As the video shows we've got worse at progressing the ball once the rhythm of play got purposedly reduced this season and crossing now more as a result, basically our last resource as we can't properly create space and do combinations on static play on a regular basis. We lack all the creativity, the finesse on the ball and also the crossers. But despite knowing his team ETH is choosing a formula that hides the qualities of our players and show all their weaknesses.
Not everyone deserves an excuse (I agree on Rashford playing casually and with half arsed efforts many times this season) but I think many of these players are trying their best, but they're just hopeless and lacking confidence as they're being set up to fail by this manager. As a result this season we're losing many more games than usual, and we've been lucky by not losing even more.
After Spurs he's got a pair of weeks to review things. If he doesn't change something I don't think he lasts until the summer, and I've been saying it for some time. I don't think that just adding the injured players to the mix will solve the issues we're seeing recurrently.
There's way too many problems to be an individual question. And as bad as the Glazers/directors have been our average displays and results in the last decade are higher than 9th in the league (3 points away from 11th), 22 goals in 20 games, 15th in shots conceded, 4th in the CL group with 15 goals conceded, ridiculed by Newcastle in the cup and so on. Had it been the first season you could think he's adapting. This happening in the second one is simply unacceptable.
Ten Hag is not the most financially backed manager, not even close. He was backed soo hard that he got Weghorst to replace Ronaldo for feck’s sake.
The recruitment has been poor before Hag got here. Don’t minimize the bad state of the club when Hag got here.
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