It's not so much that he didn't get those exact players, but clubs with proper recruitment will then move on to other targets of a similar profile should they miss out on their number 1 choice. That isn't the case at all in those two examples anyway, we missed out on the top two targets and then just went and got who we could to fill a position while still paying a premium.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Yes we have consistently bought poorly. But ETH has signed some of the worst players imaginable. Of course, ideally we would have had a strucutre that would not have allowed that, but it was reported from outset he wanted a big say on transfers. That to me raises a massive red flag. He thought Weghorst could do something? Or that Antony would improve us? Or Mount? Or Amrabat? Or Onana for a massive fee when available previous summer for a free? And 3 of those 5 played for him and the two other played against him in Dutch leauge.
Exactly , it’s so much more than “we didn’t get Kane”.
From Mata, Di Maria, Pogba, Sanchez, Ronaldo to Casemerio, you could make a resonable argument that the thing that connects all these players is a remarkable coincidence that either the player wanted to leave their clubs or their clubs were looking to offload them.
In at least some, if not all, United signed them because they could. That’s different from signing players you target for the team.
But who could argue with those names? On paper it’s hard to complain about it. But when you factor in everything else we know and see about Uniteds dysfunction setup, it’s more then likely that our managers get what they get and are left to make it work.
That might have been ok 20 years ago, but we are competing against clubs that are far better run and have squads of players primed for their managers and that can adapt to new managers. City buy replacements 1-3 years before they need them. A Hoijland is bought when a Haaland or Aguero are still quality. A Jack Grealish 100mil signing can take a few seasons in and out to bed in as you don’t really need him.
We just don’t have those luxuries and yet fans expect us to meet top targets cause “money spent”.
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Hold on…
Why do you think he signed Weghorst? You think he looked around Europe and thought “that’s the guy I want” or was that the best player he could get in such a short period of time that United offered him? There is a massive difference, same with Amrabat who was an emergency loanee after Mainoo got injured. And regulon.
There’s no evidence Mount was picked by ETH, he was a player offered to him and he took it. . Reminds me of our Mata signing in some ways.
Like many United managers he has had to sometimes take certain players cause nobody better was offered because we are shIt at negotiating for players and having alternate options for managers.
Club overpaying on players is a club issue.
How many players have joined United in 11 years and done well? ETH signings have probably still overall done no worse relative to the majority of the players in that period. Many of them have injuries hampering them so they at least have a reason.
The red flag is the club , not the manager. Replace the manager and all the red Flags are still there. Hopefully INEOS will deal with the club issues and regardless of manager , the squad will not be impacted as Much.
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It was widely reported that Mount was a priority for Ten Hag. And we signed other players Ten Hag was already familiar with. It'd be a hell of a coincidence if the club "offered" him only players he'd already worked with
Not really. What you have proven is if you are very selective about which injuries matter and which don’t, and then nitpick at players average position (Bentacur being slightly more advanced than DM, Richarlison maybe playing slightly to the left) you can come to exactly the conclusions you want.
Other than that you’ve made a point about Spurs dealing terribly with injuries which proved to be quite false, and then proceeded to argue how their injuries were really very very minor, nothing compared to ours unprecedented worst ever injury crisis, which also proved to be not much more than nonsense - that’s until you get very creative in dismissing the importance of players they have out, exaggerate the importance of our injuries and then make up a few hypothetical injuries which were not there but could have been if only we hadn’t stopped playing certain players.
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I would not call “widely reported” as fact. But let’s say ETH picked every player we got, do you think given what we have seen the last 11 years from United , that if he hadn’t picked anybody, that the club would have done better?
He would have made no difference obviously because he’s been a nothing player for us which is why his absence doesn’t even matter. I have it on par with Martial, it’s just the numbers game as they don’t contribute anything of note.
Whether Spurs have worse or equal injuries isn't as important, really.
They are currently 5th with 39 points in 20 matches. In the previous four seasons, at this stage they had 33, 36, 33, and 30 points. In those seasons they finished 8th, 4th, 6th, and 7th. They are outpacing their previous seasons' point tallies and are close to achieving top 4, which they mostly haven't done in the last years.
They are currently 5th with 39 points in 20 matches. In the previous four seasons, at this stage they had 33, 36, 33, and 30 points. In those seasons they finished 8th, 4th, 6th, and 7th. They are outpacing their previous seasons' point tallies and are close to achieving top 4, which they mostly haven't done in the last years.
His inability to get the team scoring is beyond concerning. We'll have plenty of time on the training ground this month so no excuses.
The more I think on it, the more I expect we will have a new manager next season. The negatives outweigh the positives.
Yeah but imagine if they also had Udogie out.
I agree with this but I wouldn't even be surprised anymore if the latter is true as well.
If Weghorst was the best option, then maybe the right call was to not sign anyone.
It's the same at any job, really. If HR gives you a pile of terrible candidates for a position, you are often better off not hiring anyone.
Nuts reading this thread and the excuses for ten hag, not a single one of our previous managers were afforded the excuse of being given players or having a mish mash of players to work with, they were just called shit or past it
He would have had to move Rashford up front and he wouldnt of had the season he had for us in his preferred role.
It is funny though that you think the club only being able to offer a United manager Weghorst basically as our main fit striker, is a manager thing . .
We're trying something different, bear with us.
Yeh to be fair, in the first 15 months of managership every manager has to deal with
- Inheriting a squad that most agreed needed "open heart surgery" or major changes
-Chronic Injuries
- Fatigue from 62 game season & world cup in between in a time when theres up to 20% more gametime(injury time)
- 2 starting player with legal issues that became problems when it was too late in the summer to address properly for squad purposes
- 1 starting Player with training issues totally undermining the manager
- 1 starting player doing cringe interviews with Piers Morgan and totally undermining the manager
- No fit striker or needing to rely on Martial/Weghorst level quality
-Club getting emergency loan signings of the quality of Weghorst, Amrabat, Reguilon and sigining age old Evans, all of whom play way more games then intended because of injuries
- Club being sh*t at getting rid of players not wanted and manager endup having to use them (a regular thing at united to be fair but one to add to all the other issues)
- Club sale destabilising everything where nobody knows where they stand or the future of the club (players and managers included)
Excuses, excuses excuses, there should be harmony in the squad , we should be playing identifiable football cause coaches coach stuff, other clubs can play great football, cause Brighton manager or maybe the club, no maybe this week its spurs, and dont newcastle have injuries, but what about Wigan doing stuff in the game didnt they nearly score, or 400 million spent or terrible records broken , I dont like what ETH says in press conferences and stuff . .
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I think the club would have struggled to do worse if we are assuming the same level of financial backing.
And the sub for Udogie. And Bissouma. And Sarr. And Kulu.
Yeah, you struggle with injury comparisons. Keep saying Benrancur is "a bit more of an offensive DM".
More excuses yep
In a few weeks time, we are probably going to hear how ETH vehemently protested against signing Anthony and Onana but were forced on him by the club.
Suppose that instead of Weghorst he'd been offered a striker from a 2nd division Portuguese team. Would you agree that playing this striker is better than moving Rashford (or doing anything else)?
We've been shit since the cup final. Scoring goals was a big problem even last season. It's just excuses and more excuses.
On the whole topic on recruitment, there are very, very few managers who have more say in transfers than ETH has had. Again, excuses.
You suggested we would be better without any striker, I just pointed out that Rashford would of probably ended up as our striker which would of affected us in other areas.
I am not sure what realistic strikers were available mid season, for a 6 month loan, who might of had the mentality to play for united, so I do not know who might of been a better alternative. Weghorst was a limited player, no doubt, but he wasnt intimidated at the club. He also had experience in the league and experience for Holland. Given what happened with Ronaldo , the work issues in the squad (remember he had to get the squad running after one game) its not that surprising that with limited options the manager went for a workhorse up front.
I cant see how signing a spanish 2nd division team player would of been better cause its the spanish 2nd division.
"Reasons do not exist in my vocabulary, thats just another word for excuse and excuses are for losers ...." White Goodman
Yes, Bentacur’s average position being higher than DM was exactly the crux of a matter in that discussion.
You can see how much you are struggling with your nonsense here when all you can resort to is nitpicking at me calling him a DM (when it is actually indeed one of the positions he plays).
I’m sure Spurs have coped well with all the injuries they’ve had but they would immediately collapse if Udogie was out. Sure thing.
The point revolved around your laughable punt that Spurs have had worse injuries than us.Yes, Bentacur’s average position being higher than DM was exactly the crux of a matter in that discussion. You can really see how much you are struggling with your nonsense here when all you can resort to is me being slightly off about his position
It's so hilariously nonsensical it has to be a joke. Tell me youre wumming and we can put it to bed easier.
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I don’t think it’s even possible to sign a worse winger than Antony for half that amount.
You probably wouldn’t even admit they are having a better season than us because that would also undermine your guy.
You guys have actually managed to convince yourselves we’ve had the worst injury crisis in football ever, haven’t you? Should already start preparing yourself for new excuses once Martinez and Casemiro are back.
Oh I fully admit Spurs are having a better season than us. You though cant stick to the point which is United have had far worse injuries than Spurs.You probably wouldn’t even admit they are having a better season than us because that would also undermine your guy.
You guys have actually managed to convince yourselves we’ve had the worst injury crisis in football ever, haven’t you? Should already start preparing yourself for new excuses once Martinez and Casemiro are back.
I don't blame you for moving the goalposts and changing the narrative though, I guess I'd do the same if I were losing a debate.
Ten Hag playing Weghorts more than a teenager playing with his dangerham at 2am looking at spicy photos probably is the most warrranted criticism.
It isn't. We signed James for a quarter of that amount and he was better.
Fair enough. They are managing to have a far better season than us whilst dealing with similar injuries/suspensions, on top of losing their best player in the Summer and not really replacing him in any significant way.
Let’s see how they cope with Son, Sarr and Bissouma out for the next 4 games.That still be nearly as impactful as us missing Martial I guess but still could be pretty bad.
This is interesting to say the least. All of the players that were playing last season are doing worse on the ball this season. We are as a team are have a worse ratio of progressing/losing the ball often than last season.
Part of this is definitely personnel. Martinez to Evans, Eriksen to McT, Shaw to Dalot, Sancho to Garnacho, Rashford (in form) to Hojlund. Of course the former players are going to be worse at keeping the ball.
However even when Martinez/Casemiro/Shaw and Eriksen have been fit and playing we've not stopped leaking goals and we still struggled to keep the ball. This points to a tactical issue.
Wouldn't it be quite difficult to properly quantify which team has had the worse injury crisis due to factors such as number of different players out, number of days each player has missed, number of matchdays each player has missed, how many minutes the player had before injury etc.
So having your key players out isn’t going to affect the team? Martinez and Casemiro are crucial in how we play from the back. We’ve had Luke Shaw also out. AWB has been out, Mount hasn’t had a run in the team yet. Maguire who was getting into form as been out. We’ve not had our first choice defence or a stabled midfield since the first few games of the season.You probably wouldn’t even admit they are having a better season than us because that would also undermine your guy.
You guys have actually managed to convince yourselves we’ve had the worst injury crisis in football ever, haven’t you? Should already start preparing yourself for new excuses once Martinez and Casemiro are back.
They havent dealt with similar injuries. I've explained this to you. Their longest CB absentee has played more than double PL games as Licha Martinez. Their next CB has played in 15/20 PL games. Their full back has played in more than 90% of the PL games whilst Shaw has played in 8 PL games (out of 20)
and I havent even gone to the midfield. Stop saying that they had the same level of injuries, it's getting embarassing.
actually I heard on talk of the devils that this (the mount priority) was not the case
Van de Ven playing 5 more games than Martinez (sounds less dramatic than DOUBLE THE AMOUNT, I know) has helped them but they’ve still gone half a season without him.
Their full backs have been OK but they have had their playmaker and a core piece of their front three out for large chunk of season, which we haven’t. It’s basically different positions being affected, that’s all.
I don’t think you would have been any less dramatic about our worst injury crisis ever if it had been Bruno and Garnacho/Rashford missing instead of Shaw and Casemiro. In fact Bruno missing would have probably been enough by itself to just write off the season and absolve ETH of any blame.
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