Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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The narrative is rapidly forming around him only going for people he's managed before, or dutch players... I look forward to hearing people moaning about that for months on end when everything doesn't go perfectly this season.

One of a couple of things has happened here:

1. the club has no decent scouting targets of it's own
2. the club has targets but have agreed with Ten Hag they will ignore these for the players he wants

Neither reflects well on the club either in terms of their disorganisation of lack of assertiveness. Based on the 'reassurances' he was meant to have received during the interview process, I would expect it's the latter.

All we can do as fans is trust that Ten Hag knows what he's doing. There is nothing wrong in principle with him filling the dressing room with trusted figures given that he has inherited an absolute mess. It will also fast track the implementation of his style which let's face it most of them will take months to adopt, or just never get there.

What would have been preferable though would have been for the club to have had a selection of quality targets already lined up for him which matched his philosophy. No chance of that given the state our scouting network has been in recently.
 
evil_geko said:
Well he is buying only few from his old club, you would think he brought half of Ajax reading your post.
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Obviously few have been bought so far because United are so bad at conductimg business. But these are the players United have been linked with:

De Jong (formerly Ajax)
Antony (Ajax)
Timber (Ajax)
Martinez (Ajax)
Alvarez (Ajax)
Brobbey (Dutch)
Malacia (Dutch)
Eriksen (formerly Ajax, spent time training with ETH)

Seems like a lot to me, but we'll see how things shake out.
 
Maybe just maybe the club's scouting sucks and ETH doesn't trust them. Imagine signing players recommended by the club and due to that he fails. I would do the same if I were him. The club has to build and earn the trust. It's not a given
 
There’s no issues with him bringing in players he knows can play his style, especially this season. In fact, it’s very sensible, especially since he doesn’t know the quality of our scouts and perhaps they aren’t set up to look for the things he wants in a player.

If he can get 3/4 first team players in who he can trust, he’s half way to having a functioning team already.

The real challenge comes next season and beyond. The reason why Ajax haven’t won a big tournament is because they can’t attract the type of player that pushes you over the edge to those major honours. If he gets us top four this year, he’ll be able to do that for the first time in his career.
 
sugar_kane said:
The narrative is rapidly forming around him only going for people he's managed before, or dutch players... I look forward to hearing people moaning about that for months on end when everything doesn't go perfectly this season.

One of a couple of things has happened here:

1. the club has no decent scouting targets of it's own
2. the club has targets but have agreed with Ten Hag they will ignore these for the players he wants

Neither reflects well on the club either in terms of their disorganisation of lack of assertiveness. Based on the 'reassurances' he was meant to have received during the interview process, I would expect it's the latter.

All we can do as fans is trust that Ten Hag knows what he's doing. There is nothing wrong in principle with him filling the dressing room with trusted figures given that he has inherited an absolute mess. It will also fast track the implementation of his style which let's face it most of them will take months to adopt, or just never get there.

What would have been preferable though would have been for the club to have had a selection of quality targets already lined up for him which matched his philosophy. No chance of that given the state our scouting network has been in recently.
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Not really.

The main ETH-connected targets we've been linked with (FDJ, Martinez, Antony, Timber) would all likely feature on any extensive list the club drew up if they alone had to make signings to suit a side managed by ETH, without any input whatsoever from ETH. Because they're guaranteed fits stylistically (duh) and of sufficient quality to already either be at or have attracted interest from top level sides who don't have ETH as manager.

Once they are club-approved targets already, it's absolutely fine to allow ETH to select them as his preferred options. That's the level of input the manager should have. The issue would be if we were signing players the club and its scouting department didn't approve of just because ETH asked for them.

But (unless you believe the Brobbey links) they've thus far been targets who any top club recruiting for a similar style of play could reasonably target. FDJ is at Barca and linked to Chelsea, Martinez being pursued by Arsenal, Timber previously linked to Bayern, Antony previously linked to sides like Chelsea & Spurs, etc. So there's no particular reason for the club to be against them as signings as none would look out of place as targets for a different manager anyway.

Particularly when (as is the case in the FDJ and Martinez deals at least) the fees required to secure them seem reasonable. Ditto Malacia for £13m and Eriksen on a free transfer. Basically there aren't enough red flags over the moves we're actually making to raise concerns that the club is being too compliant.

If we end up signing lesser players like Brobbey or dropping 80m on Antony then fine, you could argue the club should have been firmer. But as is they're good targets for good deals.
 
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Eddy_JukeZ said:
I usually agree with your posts, but you can at least wait until the games actually begin.
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I think he'll be grand tbf. But that's mainly because I think we've already got some really good players, and he should be able to get them performing much closer to their best.
 
Real Name said:
@Adnan nicely explained who and from what league did Klopp buy when he came to Liverpool. He's not buying 'everyone'. And even if he's buying from his old club why is that a problem. He's starting at his new job and he wants players he knows and trusts. I see this is going to be a nice agenda over the year. I mean, season hasnt even started yet this is a theme which is getting bigger and bigger. What should he do, he has a philosophy, a style he'll pursue and thinks for now those and those players are best for him to implement it through them. Over time, once the team gels and structure at the club changes some more he'll buy players who are not from Ajax or Eredivisie. Not only that, for now he bought a guy from Feyenoord, from a league he knows, just like Klopp in the beginning bought from Bundesliga and Eriksen played for Ajax like 8 years ago. (I see you mentioned he formed a relationship with him, what kind of relationship, they spoke on the phone?) So how exactly is that 'everyone' from Ajax, care to explain?
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Didn't see Adnan's post but I don't recall Klopp only being linked with/buying German or Dortmund players. I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to question re Ten Hag. Of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating as per usual.
 
tenpoless said:
I'm fine with that. As long as they've proven themselves to be better or potentially be better than what we have. In Eredivise there are so many good talents, it's not bad at all if you're looking for players and they're quite affordable in relation to the quality you get. What we need to avoid is Premier League if possible because everyone gets stupidly expensive and doesn't necessarily mean they'll do better. You can use Champions League as an example. Look at how many ex/current AJAX players played like the competition was their home compared to our players who shat the bed everytime the anthem is being played. Put this current side against AJAX from last year and they'll be schooled around.
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Well we will have to see if this approach works. I have my doubts TBH.
 
Andrade said:
Obviously few have been bought so far because United are so bad at conductimg business. But these are the players United have been linked with:

De Jong (formerly Ajax)
Antony (Ajax)
Timber (Ajax)
Martinez (Ajax)
Alvarez (Ajax)
Brobbey (Dutch)
Malacia (Dutch)
Eriksen (formerly Ajax, spent time training with ETH)

Seems like a lot to me, but we'll see how things shake out.
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We've actually been linked with 100 players this year alone, I'm not sure why you are so certain it's just them names, there is actually a meme floating about with all the players we apparently been linked with, shows how ridiculous ITK transfer gossip really is.

The certainly are Martinez, DeJong from Barca, Anthony, and the other 2 that have signed, the other names you named is pure speculation, if you going to go down that route may as well link every player under the sun that been reported who aren't Dutch or from Dutch league.



Near sure Jose when he went to Chelsea bought pretty much all Portuguese players from the league or Porto
 
Andrade said:
Didn't see Adnan's post but I don't recall Klopp only being linked with/buying German or Dortmund players. I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to question re Ten Hag. Of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating as per usual.
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Here it is:

Adnan said:
Matip, Klavan, Karius, Manninger were players signed from the German Bundesliga. Sadio Mane was a player Klopp pushed for due to the player being associated to the RedBull club in Austria and he was well versed in understanding the heavy metal approach of Jurgen Klopp. Klopp went ahead and signed Mane after it was reported Liverpool's data department had deemed Mane to be not good enough via the Graham model. Wijnaldum was the only player that didn't have a link to either the German or Austrian Bundesliga.
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One key point that should buy ten Hag the time needed is coaching. If he can show that players (current and new) are improving the way we have seen at Liverpool and city under Klopp and Pep, then finally we might be onto something. Klopp came 8th in his first season but there was zero chance of him being sacked. Everyone could see the progress Being made.

With us it feels like since Fergie we’ve not been able to improve any fancy new signing. Apart from maybe Bruno. The way Mane or Salah etc stepped up several levels when they went to pool. Even lesser players like Matip just slipping into the side like a glove.

Towards the end Under Ole or Jose you felt we could sign Mbappe and turn him into Zaha. Everyone just seemed to stagnate or regress.
 
Terranova said:
this is true, but to be fair, the players he's targeting are great players. So it's not all bad.
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This is great to hear especially from Ajax's supporter. At least, we now know we are not doing too bad with this current approach. Most of us have very little knowledge about Dutch football.
 
Flexdegea said:
We've actually been linked with 100 players this year alone, I'm not sure why you are so certain it's just them names, there is actually a meme floating about with all the players we apparently been linked with, shows how ridiculous ITK transfer gossip really is.

The certainly are Martinez, DeJong from Barca, Anthony, and the other 2 that have signed, the other names you named is pure speculation, if you going to go down that route may as well link every player under the sun that been reported who aren't Dutch or from Dutch league.



Near sure Jose when he went to Chelsea bought pretty much all Portuguese players from the league or Porto
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I mean, I listed 8 people, you confirmed 5, so we're not talking a massive gap here. The other 3 have all been reportedly linked, we'll see what happens.

Re Mourinho, of his first 10 Chelsea signings, 4 were Portuguese and 2 of those were from Porto. You could argue some similarity, especially as the four were all defenders or defensive midfielders, in keeping with his dour philosophy. But we'll have to wait and see who United actually buy, because Jose also bought a lot of non-Portuguese players in that early period: Diarra, Robben, Drogba, Kezman, etc.
 
Andrade said:
Intelligent contribution to the discussion, well done.
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I mean what is there to add? You’ve made your mind up on something and over exaggerated to the extreme. So what if United are looking at two Ajax players? If they are good then who cares.
 
Real Name said:
Here it is:
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Thanks. Not quite the same as far as I can see. First of all, none of them were Dortmund players and Austria and Germany are not the same country, much as we might like to turn the links between the two into an absolute symbiosis. I think the Mane thing is a stretch as well. He may have wanted him for those reasons but he'd never worked with him.

And it's interesting about Klopp defying the advice of their statistical people re Mane (I'd heard that he was Klopp's second choice after Gotze but that's by the by) because it's pretty well known that Klopp didn't want Salah and the analytics people convinced him to go with Salah over Draxler. Basically, it helps if you have a team to assist with this stuff.

Left to his own devices, Klopp may well have gone much more Dortmund/Bundesliga heavy, but he didn't because that's not how they run things over there.
 
Andrade said:
Didn't see Adnan's post but I don't recall Klopp only being linked with/buying German or Dortmund players. I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to question re Ten Hag. Of course the proof of the pudding will be in the eating as per usual.
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Liverpool weren't in nearly as bad a state us us when he joined.

Apples and pears.
 
Andrade said:
Thanks. Not quite the same as far as I can see. First of all, none of them were Dortmund players and Austria and Germany are not the same country, much as we might like to turn the links between the two into an absolute symbiosis. I think the Mane thing is a stretch as well. He may have wanted him for those reasons but he'd never worked with him.

And it's interesting about Klopp defying the advice of their statistical people re Mane (I'd heard that he was Klopp's second choice after Gotze but that's by the by) because it's pretty well known that Klopp didn't want Salah and the analytics people convinced him to go with Salah over Draxler. Basically, it helps if you have a team to assist with this stuff.

Left to his own devices, Klopp may well have gone much more Dortmund/Bundesliga heavy, but he didn't because that's not how they run things over there.
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I didnt say its the same but that it happens. Also I'm aware Austria and Germany are not the same country. That wasnt the point either way in the post I quoted. None of them were Dortmund players sure, Malacia isnt an Ajax player but a player who played in Eredivisie, just as Klopp looked in Bundesliga players when he came in. 4 players to be precise.

Analytics player convinced him? Its not that Salah was unknown entity at the time so it took analytics guys to convince him.
 
We also shouldn't ignore the fact that there is actually a very firm upside to signing former ETH players.

Even if we sign exactly the right type and calibre of players this summer, it will still take time and work on the training ground to get them playing like an ETH team.

But in our case it's not at all beyond the realms of possibility that we start the season with four players (FDJ, Martinez, Antony, VDB) who have already been part of ETH sides for extended periods and another (Eriksen) who at least trained at Ajax while ETH was manager. That's almost half a team already familiar with his methods from the very start, including 2/3rds of a midfield he already took to a CL semi-final.

There's a lot to be said for the degree to which that sort foundation would expedite the process of our new team clicking, especially given how unsuited our squad initially seemed to his brand of football. Even if in the long run a signing like Antony (for example) only turns out to be a decent option on par with several others we could have signed, there's value in the fact that he will help us adapt to ETH quicker this season than those other signings would.
 
Real Name said:
I didnt say its the same but that it happens. Also I'm aware Austria and Germany are not the same country. That wasnt the point either way in the post I quoted. None of them were Dortmund players sure, Malacia isnt an Ajax player but a player who played in Eredivisie, just as Klopp looked in Bundesliga players when he came in. 4 players to be precise.

Analytics player convinced him? Its not that Salah was unknown entity at the time so it took analytics guys to convince him.
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Yeah, he wanted Draxler. It's nothing to do with Salah being unknown, he just preferred another player.
 
alexthelion said:
Liverpool weren't in nearly as bad a state us us when he joined.

Apples and pears.
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How do you figure that? They finished 6th in the 2014-15 season on 62 points and Rodgers was sacked 8 games into the 2015-16 season when they were 10th in the table. This was in the context of not having won the league for 25 years (at that time) of course.
 
Andrade said:
How do you figure that? They finished 6th in the 2014-15 season on 62 points and Rodgers was sacked 8 games into the 2015-16 season when they were 10th in the table. This was in the context of not having won the league for 25 years (at that time) of course.
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Also, look at the team he inherited. It was junk. We have a lot of exciting younger players that 100% should be very good under a good manager. We aren't even close to being as much of a mess as Liverpool were when Klopp turned up.

This take should sit alongside the idea that Spurs team last season was as good as the one that Poch took to the CL final 18/19.
 
I get he knows them or whatever but assembling the eredivisie all stars to compete in the premier league doesnt fill me with confidence.

Ironically this is the same man who thinks Pep underestimated this league.
 
Andrade said:
I mean, I listed 8 people, you confirmed 5, so we're not talking a massive gap here. The other 3 have all been reportedly linked, we'll see what happens.

Re Mourinho, of his first 10 Chelsea signings, 4 were Portuguese and 2 of those were from Porto. You could argue some similarity, especially as the four were all defenders or defensive midfielders, in keeping with his dour philosophy. But we'll have to wait and see who United actually buy, because Jose also bought a lot of non-Portuguese players in that early period: Diarra, Robben, Drogba, Kezman, etc.
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I know but you linking 3 players, why not link all the other people that been linked, and their been loads of them who aren't Dutch league or Dutch players.


Klopp literally do the same thing when he joined Liverpool raided the German league.


We must be the only club where it's seems to be bad thing that the new manager is looking to buy high performing players for his system and ways that he already knows, who will improve us straight away, but it seems to be "worrying" or "concerning" to folk :lol:
 
Hawks2008 said:
I get he knows them or whatever but assembling the eredivisie all stars to compete in the premier league doesnt fill me with confidence.

Ironically this is the same man who thinks Pep underestimated this league.
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yep signing 3 players = all star eredevise. De Jong plays in La Liga, Erickson played PL. But okay lets go with your narrative.
 
Flexdegea said:
I know but you linking 3 players, why not link all the other people that been linked, and their been loads of them who aren't Dutch league or Dutch players.


Klopp literally do the same thing when he joined Liverpool raided the German league.


We must be the only club where it's seems to be bad thing that the new manager is looking to buy high performing players for his system and ways that he already knows, who will improve us straight away, but it seems to be "worrying" or "concerning" to folk :lol:
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But he didn't, as has already been discussed.
 
There's nothing inherently wrong with signing players you've worked with before, and doubly so when ETH is trying to install a new system at United instead of simply continuing with the old one (if we pretend there was a system at all). It's not as if his targets are absurd choices, they're proven and rank among the most desireable up-and-comers in Europe. If we'd hired some Danish coach who wanted to bring his players from F.C. Copenhagen, there would be grounds for skepticism. Wanting players like De Jong, Antony and Martinez makes perfect sense, and I would have expected the club to look at them no matter who the manager was. They did an excellent job at Ajax, so why not?
 
It really doesn't matter if he signs the player he worked with before or signs players some obscure league no one heard of before. Only thing that matters is, he should get results.
 
ETH is not signing players simply because they are dutch. Its because he has seen them play before, knows their talents well and thus, he knows they will certainly improve the team.

With the major changes in the recruitment structure last season, he has to take on the role of recommending players, so he went with the players he has already assessed before. No conspiracy here guys.
 
roonster09 said:
It really doesn't matter if he signs the player he worked with before or signs players some obscure league no one heard of before. Only thing that matters is, he should get results.
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Obviously this is 100% true, but I wonder if part of the reason the club's business is moving at a snail's pace is because of this narrow focus. Then again, it could just be that the people in charge of transfers currently are not any more competent than they were in the previous 5 or so years, which is also bad.
 
mctrials23 said:
Also, look at the team he inherited. It was junk. We have a lot of exciting younger players that 100% should be very good under a good manager. We aren't even close to being as much of a mess as Liverpool were when Klopp turned up.

This take should sit alongside the idea that Spurs team last season was as good as the one that Poch took to the CL final 18/19.
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Agree, although a lot of people are adamant that they are all perpetually rubbish. Ronaldo fans, mostly.
 
Andrade said:
Obviously this is 100% true, but I wonder if part of the reason the club's business is moving at a snail's pace is because of this narrow focus. Then again, it could just be that the people in charge of transfers currently are not any more competent than they were in the previous 5 or so years, which is also bad.
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I don't know why it's moving at snail's pace, except De Jong I don't think any of the targets are difficult to sign. Ajax are very good club to deal with (Maybe except for Antony this season).
 
roonster09 said:
I don't know why it's moving at snail's pace, except De Jong I don't think any of the targets are difficult to sign. Ajax are very good club to deal with (Maybe except for Antony this season).
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Sorry, misread your post so I edited mine. I don't know why either.
 
I think what we have to remember at Ajax Ten Hag was working with a structure in place that works effectively, identifying players that fit the ethos and style of the club.

He’s now come to a club that’s infrastructure has frankly been a joke for a decade, possibly has had the worst decade of squad building by any club ever considering the amount of money spend, a director of football who so far we have no idea if he knowes what he is doing or not.

The question of Ten Hag coming here was never is he a good coach/manger it’s can he manage without that structure around him. It’s seems at the moment his solution is ignoring Uniteds scouting network and just demanding players he is familiar with.
 
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