Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Emery's reputation was hardly in tatters at Arsenal. It wasn't in a good place but it wasn't in tatters either. The man had 3 European titles before Arsenal. Anyone could have told you he would easily find a job at a big club in Europe again.

Isn't that the thing? We wait until managers hit absolute rock bottom before sacking them. By that stage, their reputations do be in the gutter. Other clubs are far more reactive and sack managers before they get to such a low ebb.
 
The bold parts are where I disagree. In the first half against Spurs we were utterly dominant, in a way I haven't seen us since Fergie, we completely suffocated them and should have been multiple goals to the good. We looked just like Klopp's Liverpool at their best.

It fell apart in the second half, and we haven't had the squad to get near that level of play again, nor will we as it seems like ETH's time is likely up, but I'd like us to bring in someone to continue us down that path, rather than bouncing around various styles and philosophies for another decade.

That I agree, but I don't think that Ten Hag has stayed true to his principles himself, for example the use of McTominay. One of the first things he did last season was decide McTominay wasn't good enough to start, yet ends up back in the team as a key player. I think Ten Hag could well be a very good coach but lacks the respect or communication to get through to the United players, which is a big part of the job at a club like this.
 
In my eyes, this is another indictment on Ten Hag. The rift in the fanbase exists for a reason. Things will improve once he’s gone
We say that with every manager though, and it doesn't happen. Some posters just genuinely hate/love a manager from day one for whatever reason and then end up agenda posting til the day they're sacked. It's getting so tedious now.
 
In my eyes, this is another indictment on Ten Hag. The rift in the fanbase exists for a reason. Things will improve once he’s gone

No they won't :lol:

Jose and Ole caused these exact same bickering camps. It'll momentarily improve until the knives come out for the next man. Unless, we somehow finally get a manager that works and drastically improve our structures.
 
My soul hurts a little when I look at the money he's spunked over the last two years. Coming off the back off Ole spunking £170m on Sancho, Ronaldo and AWB. I genuinely good do better than whoever signs off on these.

Tonight randomly changing the wide forwards after a good game, playing Mctominay in CM again.. unfortunately he has too many flaws
I called him criminally negligent and it laughed out of this thread but these aren't flaws, you know what you are getting with McTominay but he stobbornly keeps him in the rotation because he isn't being held accountable. I don't think there is even anyone in the building looking at this and taking him to task.

Can't even organize a proper defence and offensive plays away at Forrest, I am sure Klopp is kicking himself wondering how he failed to score against this shower of shit. You see an 18 year old kid struggling in a one man midfield and you take him out for wanderer with no positional sense, what do you expect to happen?

He has to go, the fact that he isn't already shows how we don't have serious people in charge. The funny thing is that they won't even have a contingency plan despite it being apparent from about September that he is a dead man walking.
 
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The bold parts are where I disagree. In the first half against Spurs we were utterly dominant, in a way I haven't seen us since Fergie, we completely suffocated them and should have been multiple goals to the good. We looked just like Klopp's Liverpool at their best.

It fell apart in the second half, and we haven't had the squad to get near that level of play again, nor will we as it seems like ETH's time is likely up, but I'd like us to bring in someone to continue us down that path, rather than bouncing around various styles and philosophies for another decade.

Come off it. I remember it was early days under Ange and I thought they looked very nervous playing out from the back the way they did. Which is understandable as only a few games earlier they were finishing up a season in which they were utter dross and had lost by far their best player. They seemed to settle at half time and just played us off the park. Absolutely nobody was saying how great we looked or any of the hyperbole you're coming up with.

The best game under ETH, for me, was against Liverpool at home last season. We've had that set of players available many times since that game and never got close to that performance again. They're just one offs.
 
This is - respectfully - incredibly debatable
Bear in mind De Boer won more Eredivises than ETH. Four in a row, the first ever to do so. Also, it's not like before ETH Ajax was on a trophy drought as large as ours. PSV and Feyenoord won the league in like a three year period.
 
A 3 of Fernandes, Eriksen and McTominay isn't of the level needed for a PL midfield imo
As a unit that trio doesn't work. No balance
 
He had success with a good DoF who assembled a talented young squad. He then came here without that kind of support, and things have gone wrong, just as they have with every other manager. In a competently run club, with the support of a good DoF, he'll get another chance to demonstrate his ability to succeed in that setup.

So, what you are saying is that the path forward is to get an excellent DoF who will get us fantastic players that can win even with a useless manager.

Perhaps you are right. Still, the first thing a good DoF will do is to sack ETH.

Unfortunately, we are not playing in the Dutch league, so we can't expect that we'll have such great players that can win the league with a bad manager like ETH.
 
Any match going fan in here? What was the reaction today? What are people saying really? Have they turned against ETH or are still hopeful?
My cousin was on the coach on the way back with the United We Stand lads for the last game we lost against West Ham, and the discussion amongst the home bound away fans was that he had to go and they were singing 'feck off Ten Hag' at one point.
 
In my eyes, this is another indictment on Ten Hag. The rift in the fanbase exists for a reason. Things will improve once he’s gone
This rift was created by Rangnick, who weaponized the fans against the players. I don't even know if this will be fixed after ETH is gone, depends on how Ratcliffe changes the culture of the club.
 
The bold parts are where I disagree. In the first half against Spurs we were utterly dominant, in a way I haven't seen us since Fergie, we completely suffocated them and should have been multiple goals to the good. We looked just like Klopp's Liverpool at their best.

This delusion is up there with the constant fawning over THAT 45 minutes that Rangnick could be arsed producing. In no way were we playing like the best Klopp sides, you are out of your god damn mind or lying to defend him. I can't decide which.
 
We say that with every manager though, and it doesn't happen. Some posters just genuinely hate/love a manager from day one for whatever reason and then end up agenda posting til the day they're sacked. It's getting so tedious now.

I don’t know if nor remember that being said with every other manager, I do know - or at least believe - that United fans get too attached to managers and are reluctant to see them sacked/moved on. It’s understandable why with Ferguson being here for like three decades, but we’ll be better of once people realise them times are gone and that’s not how top clubs conduct themselves. The notion of “the one” manager needs to be done with.

For reference:

I mean we have fans who somehow believe that 6 managers in 10 years is a lot or too much.

People should remember that during the same period of time Bayern had 8 different managers(including interims), Real Madrid had 6 different and 7 in total, Juventus had 4 different and 5 in total. Both Milan team have had 10 different managers. Napoli have had 7 different managers. The point being that United are arguably the club that underachieved the most and one of the key issue is the club reluctance to change things quickly which as far as I know is not an issue for Ineos Sport.

^the above is a good post that highlights how modern football is.

No they won't :lol:

Jose and Ole caused these exact same bickering camps. It'll momentarily improve until the knives come out for the next man. Unless, we somehow finally get a manager that works and drastically improve our structures.

read above. besides, even if temporary an improvement in the context of this forum will occur. People just need to stop blindly rallying behind a manager as if they’re infallible and blindly hoping they will lead us to the promise land.
 
Emery's reputation was hardly in tatters at Arsenal. It wasn't in a good place but it wasn't in tatters either. The man had 3 European titles before Arsenal. Anyone could have told you he would easily find a job at a big club in Europe again. Ten Hag's claim to fame is a CL semi-final run 4 years ago.

I'll give you the odd incompetent front office at a big club in one of Europe's top 5 leagues that will probably open the way for him to land another big job again but I guarantee you that when he inevitably ballses that up, that will be it for him for a while. He is destined to manage at mid-table club sides in Europe's top 5 leagues for the foreseeable future because he has proven that he is at best a second tier manager and is nowhere near being a top manager in Europe. The only country where he is almost guaranteed a top job if he wants it is the Eredivisie with Ajax and maybe the Dutch National team job. That's it.

I don't agree with you at all, but time will tell. I'm happy to make a wager out of it if you'd like to be more specific about what you define as mid-table. Never managing a team who make it into a European cup competition again?
 
No they won't :lol:

Jose and Ole caused these exact same bickering camps. It'll momentarily improve until the knives come out for the next man. Unless, we somehow finally get a manager that works and drastically improve our structures.
Yep exactly this. Even then, if we are successful with a new guy, there will still be those nutters finding fault and talking shite and wanting whoever it is sacked. We even had them when fergie was in charge.
 
United need a couple of seasons in midtable to be honest. This boom bust cycle of top 4 just encourages the panic buys and short sightedness as, given they only care about CL money, it’s worked a treat for the Glazers.
 
People just need to stop blindly rallying behind a manager as if they’re infallible and blindly hoping they will lead us to the promise land.

Well I've been saying this since Jose. Still, it never changes. Fans on here build bizarre attachments to managers who have had no real success.

Sooooooo... as I was saying, we'll be back here again with the next man.
 
That I agree, but I don't think that Ten Hag has stayed true to his principles himself, for example the use of McTominay. One of the first things he did last season was decide McTominay wasn't good enough to start, yet ends up back in the team as a key player. I think Ten Hag could well be a very good coach but lacks the respect or communication to get through to the United players, which is a big part of the job at a club like this.

The one thing he's done well beyond reproach here is his man management, he clearly has the respect of most of the players and has won the ego battle with some of the really bad apples like Ronaldo, who got the previous 2 managers fired. He's also clearly stuck with his principles, McTominay isn't good enough and wouldn't be playing if we had a full squad, he's playing out of necessity more than anything.

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Ten Hag - Antony was a poor signing (although that's just as much on the club), and his system does have a certain naivety to it and breaks down when an individual or two aren't pulling their weight, but he's absolutely stuck to his principles rather than going back to the mid-block of last season, and the players are clearly playing for him.
 
Well I've been saying this since Jose. Still, it never changes. Fans on here build bizarre attachments to managers who have had no real success.

Sooooooo... as I was saying, we'll be back here again with the next man.

Seems we’re on the same page. I didn’t state it would be a permanent fix - but I do expect the rift on this forum to improve/subside once he’s gone. I mean, people are rewriting history and suggesting Ten Hag was of “excellent pedigree” before joining United. What some of our fans believe he is or built him up to be has never really matched his reality of an up and coming manager. With those you get some right and some wrong, Ten Hag has proven to be wrong for us. Harsh reality.

My hope is that the next guy won’t have a record breaking number of losses by January next season, and hopefully that will also subside some of the criticism their way
 
Ten Hag cannot keep hiding behind the "we have too many injuries" excuse for playing McTominay. Sure, let's say it was unavoidable to take out Mainoo. You don't substitute McTominay in, simple as that. It's the equivalent of him saying he'd rather eat shit because there's nothing else good to eat. You clearly know where the problem is, yet you keep letting it persist. You reap what you sow
 
In my eyes, this is another indictment on Ten Hag. The rift in the fanbase exists for a reason. Things will improve once he’s gone
The constant sniping among utd supporters is not helpful. We have become a laughing stock. Other fanbases are picking up on it and it is embarrassing: we are the Arsenal clowns of the late Wenger era. Even when they were at their lowest ebb Liverpool stuck together and got rid of their cowboy owners before bringing in an elite manager. Look at that transformation. We have to remain utd. Okay there are valid criticisms of ETH but splitting into two poisonous camps won't take the club forward. This season is a write off but with new funds and Sir Jim taking charge of footballing matters there should be progress in the medium term. Just to point out also that City Ground is not an easy place for any team to play. I feared for us today as I knew they would not roll over and be tickled like Villa did.
 
Sure, we overperformed last year and we all expected a less successful campaign this time round. And sure we're underperforming this year due to a lot of very valid reasons - Rashford's goals have dried up, we have about 10 players injured at any point in time (including our key performers from last season in Casemiro, Licha, Shaw, Varane and new signing Mount), Onana decided to single handedly sabotage our CL campaign, the refs have been suspiciously card and decision friendly against us, and Sancho has checked out out of his footballing career. These are reasons most managers would truly struggle with.

But the bare minimum EtH has to show in the face of these adversities is competence with the tools at his disposal, and the ability to use them like a top manager would.
- Why did he stick so long with Rashford instead of understanding that his 'star man' was only make things worse, and more worryingly wasn't showing the body language you'd expect of your best player on the pitch?
- Why did he persist with Onana in every CL game instead of taking him out of the spotlight and trying to salvage something out of the group? In fact, he's not even tried another keeper to see how we'd fare if Onana continue the free fall.
- Is your standard for selection based on quality or effort? If your standard is quality, then Antony should not be given so many starts, and Sancho should be in the squad. If it is effort on the pitch, then Rashford shouldn't have been in the lineup for so long. Which is it?
- When he starts McTominay game after game even when other midfield options are present, the message it sends out is that he trusts more in McT's individual moments than his own tactical reading of what a good midfield looks like. That's inexcusable. The Mainoo sub today was inexcusable. How do you expect others to have faith in you when you don't show faith in yourself?
- He is not getting the best out of any single player who is fit and ready to play. Why did it take so long to see Garnacho on the right, for instance? Why did he buy Hojlund if he can't get his team to create chances for him? Why is it that this is the worst version of Bruno we've seen in a United shirt? Why is our football so shit, and every single United footballer looking so much worse than we know they are?
- He's not shown the mental fortitude to build on good games. Each time we have a false dawn, and each time he does something absurd after it. It is as demoralizing as getting thrased 5-0 or 7-0 by your rivals - the feeling that you can do your best and win a game, and it still won't matter as we will probably lose the next one nonetheless.
- He's not shown the ability to beat top sides away from home. Even keeping aside the 7-0 at Anfield as an aberration, he's not managed to have strong game away. It doesn't get better if you start breaking the wrong sorts of records at home to couple with that as well. You can't beat the likes of City, Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs away, and now you can't beat Bournemouth and Forest as well? What can you do, then?

I said it before, ETH has had the opposite of the Midas touch, yes we're in dire straits as a club and as a squad - but he's somehow managed to make things even worse.

All this said, when he goes it won't be just his fault. Questions have to be asked of the recruitment team for overspending on such poor fits - Sancho, Antony, Onana, Mount - and making so many wrong decisions in one window. They have to be asked of players like Rashford - who unlike Sancho decided to give up on football on the pitch instead of at his PS5. They have to be asked of our medical team and fitness regimes - why did we have so many injuried in one season? They have to be asked of the management's vision of the club - what are your standards, and what determines whether or not someone meets them? What sort of football do you want to play? They have to be asked of our club's response to the terrible VAR and ref calls that have consistently gone against us this season - why is no one speaking up to call them out and prevent them from happening again?

Just a shitshow on every front.

I think you make a number of valid points. Last season all of his big calls seemed to be vindicated. This season everything he touches is turning to shit. Yes, there are mitigating circumstances, but he isn’t helping himself. His confidence has taken a big hit. I feel for the guy; I wouldn’t want to be in his situation, but there is no escaping scrutiny as United manager, and right now he is also failing in his role, along with many others.
 
This is - respectfully - incredibly debatable

At worst you could claim a neutral reputation, but he was generally seen as the next big thing in Europe. I get thinking that perhaps the United job was too soon for him but he did a good job with Ajax, I don't really see how that's arguable.

Bear in mind De Boer won more Eredivises than ETH. Four in a row, the first ever to do so. Also, it's not like before ETH Ajax was on a trophy drought as large as ours. PSV and Feyenoord won the league in like a three year period.

Nothing in this post is at all relevant, nor are they even sensible criticisms. ETH was only manager for 3, so how could he have won 4? The trophy drought in comparison is also meaningless. The point is that he had a good reputation due to taking an Ajax team that hadn't won the league for a while, and had them winning the league at every opportunity. Things probably aren't going to work out here for him, but that doesn't change the past.
 
I don't know how people defend the tactical choices and the way he gets us to play more often than not. I can't say I believe we're suddenly going to play amazing football when everyone is back fit, we don't see nearly enough quality from this group under him for that idea to truly make sense. We don't look nearly there, we look miles off.
 
Seems we’re on the same page. I didn’t state it would be a permanent fix - but I do expect the rift on this forum to improve/subside once he’s gone. I mean, people are rewriting history and suggesting Ten Hag was of “excellent pedigree” before joining United. What some of our fans believe he is or built him up to be has never really matched his reality of an up and coming manager. With those you get some right and some wrong, Ten Hag has proven to be wrong for us. Harsh reality.

My hope is that the next guy won’t have a record breaking number of losses by January next season, and hopefully that will also subside some of the criticism their way

Of course we're on the same page? Not sure how you took anything different from my original post.

This is the Caf, this is what will happen. From day one there will be posters against the next man because of their loyalty to ETH. Same thing happened when ETH took over and a cohort of Ole fans were negative about him from the get-go. These weird little camps sprung up under Jose and unfortunately have been a Caf thing ever since.
 
I don’t know if nor remember that being said with every other manager, I do know - or at least believe - that United fans get too attached to managers and are reluctant to see them sacked/moved on. It’s understandable why with Ferguson being here for like three decades, but we’ll be better of once people realise them times are gone and that’s not how top clubs conduct themselves. The notion of “the one” manager needs to be done with.

For reference:



^the above is a good post that highlights how modern football is.



read above. besides, even if temporary an improvement in the context of this forum will occur. People just need to stop blindly rallying behind a manager as if they’re infallible and blindly hoping they will lead us to the promise land.
I hear what your saying and that's fair enough, it's more the unnecessary jabs taken at each other that I can't stand anymore, as I said it's ruining the forum. And having a different manager in place isn't going to change that, it's been the same for several of them post fergie
 
Come off it. I remember it was early days under Ange and I thought they looked very nervous playing out from the back the way they did. Which is understandable as only a few games earlier they were finishing up a season in which they were utter dross and had lost by far their best player. They seemed to settle at half time and just played us off the park. Absolutely nobody was saying how great we looked or any of the hyperbole you're coming up with.

The best game under ETH, for me, was against Liverpool at home last season. We've had that set of players available many times since that game and never got close to that performance again. They're just one offs.

They looked nervous playing out from the back because we were putting them under a huge amount of pressure and repeatedly won the ball back from them. We had the best chances of the game by miles, without including the blatant penalty that VAR refused to give, and looked utterly dominant.

The second half was more even, no doubt, although "played us of the park" is nonsense hyperbole.

Liverpool at home last season was great to watch, but was built on the mid-block platform we've been playing for too long now. It's pretty good against top sides who give us space to run in behind, and we can let them have the ball, but it's not a successful long term approach and we need to move away from it.
 
So, what you are saying is that the path forward is to get an excellent DoF who will get us fantastic players that can win even with a useless manager.

Perhaps you are right. Still, the first thing a good DoF will do is to sack ETH.

Unfortunately, we are not playing in the Dutch league, so we can't expect that we'll have such great players that can win the league with a bad manager like ETH.

This forum is just overrun with children. ETH may be failing here, but there's no way he's "useless" given what he did at Ajax and his first season with us. Your final sentence is obviously flawed, as before ETH Ajax had several managers who were unable to win the league.

The thing is, I expect a DoF will fire ETH, as they'll want to put their own mark on the team. However, I fully expect that his time here (and that of several of our managers after Fergie) would have been much more successful with a better structure above and around him.
 

This explains why we keep on conceding the same type of cut-back goal - and also why EtH doesn’t seem to to appreciate the importance of a real DM. He simply doesn’t understand how to coach his team to defend. You need midfielders to track opponents and defend runs on the edge of the box.
 
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