Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Varela, Borthwick-Jackson and Fosu Mensah too… nar mate, as their post United careers have shown, they were just shite.

They were all given their debuts in the second season by LVG. They had no reason, power or influence in the dressing room to down tools.

Louis Van Gaal actually had a really mild dressing room and a pretty uneventful tenure in terms of drama. Rooney and Carrick were the only players who held any power or influence, and they were some of his favourites.
 
Hence why I posted that we won 8 of the last 12 in my first post there, check back and you’ll see it clearly and quoted by posters too so to show I haven’t edited it.
Just posted incorrectly when replying to one of those quotes.

Winning eight in 12, including a quarter-final against West Ham, a semi-final against Everton, an FA Cup final and an away match to Manchester City absolutely isn’t downing tools. It’s players showing that they could behave professionally despite what they thought of the manager.

Everton and Palace were bottom half teams that season, we needed a replay to get past West Ham, and extra time to win the final.

We conceded three in the space of about six minutes against Spurs, lost the lead to draw with Leicester, and conceded two in four minutes to throw away the lead and lose to West Ham. City in the league and West Ham in the cup were the only top half sides we beat in that run, and two of the sides we beat were relegated.

It also ignores that we went on a run of six games without a win in the middle of the season.

It's not exactly a glowing review of the commitment of the players when a single extra point would have achieved CL qualification.
 
Varela, Borthwick-Jackson and Fosu Mensah too… nar mate, as their post United careers have shown, they were just shite.
Ha yeah, three young fringe players (who would've never played a minute for United had it not been for LVG) were surely the ringmasters behind a dressing room revolt!
 
They were all given their debuts in the second season by LVG. They had no reason, power or influence in the dressing room to down tools.

Louis Van Gaal actually had a really mild dressing room and a pretty uneventful tenure in terms of drama. Rooney and Carrick were the only players who held any power or influence, and they were some of his favourites.

and even his results were amazingly consistent in being very average throughout both seasons. I just don’t understand the claim at all that anyone down tools on him there, as there was no end to his reign that even slightly resembled Ole’s or Mourinho’s, twas in fact ended as more of the same or maybe a slight improvement.
 
Rooney loved LVG, not sure what you are on about.
I was being sarcastic, not every time the form of the team drops is it due to players downing tools. It can just be that they're not that good and therefore will go through fluctuations in form and confidence and then managers not doing a good job on top of that.
 
This is what you would have expected ETH to do, but due to injuries and that certain players are seeming to be 'taking their ball home', means he's had to 'have all hands to the pumps' and to resurrect such as Maguire and McT, both of whom were expected to be gone by now.

Sancho has given up the ghost/thrown the toys out of his pram, apparently because we are not playing in a manner that suits his skill set. Don't know whats up with Rashford, except perhaps he reached his skill/playing 'plateau' and he begins to realise now that every defender, especially in the PL, can predict his next move..even before he can! Martial has been 'wandering in the wilderness' for years, but has got back into the picture because of circumstances, not of his own making.

It would seem that injuries notwithstanding, both Casemiro and Varane are now regretting their move to OT, but still content to draw huge salaries, from the bench. The outstanding defender we have is sidelined through injury, between AWB/Dalot/ Reguilon we might have a half decent full back, but individually they all have weaknesses as top defenders, and so it goes on... Mount wondering why he's been brought here, VDB wondering why he is still here, Amrabat cannot believe his luck in being here, Perhaps its only Jonny Evans who actually knows why he's here! Poor lad Hojllund just wanting to get a decent pass from someone... it just goes on, perhaps its only the younger lads like Garnacho, Mainoo, Pellistri, Hannibal, etc. who are just happy to be in the squad, that gives ETH hope.

A lot more 'nashing' and 'grinding of teeth' to be endured yet I'm afraid!
Sorry this is not true. ETH benched several of his signings against Newcastle in favour or starting McT and Maguire. Antony on bench. Why start Martial when we all know he will walk around. Why no Amrabat, who ETH chased all summer? Why drop Varanne in favour of Maguire. Why not pick Reguillon who ETH also signed? Why not play VDB in midfield who he managed at Ajax. Noone forced ETH to keep playing ETH and McT, newcastle have a ton of injuries but looked up for it and dominated. Stop making excuses.
 
I was being sarcastic, not every time the form of the team drops is it due to players downing tools. It can just be that they're not that good and therefore will go through fluctuations in form and confidence and then managers not doing a good job on top of that.
Ahh fair enough, I should've picked up on that from the remainder of your post. In that case I agree with you.
 
Ahh fair enough, I should've picked up on that from the remainder of your post. In that case I agree with you.
Seemingly you weren't the only one that misunderstood so that's on me, I hoped that Borthwick-Jackson and Varela were obscure enough for it to be clear.
 
Everton and Palace were bottom half teams that season, we needed a replay to get past West Ham, and extra time to win the final.

We conceded three in the space of about six minutes against Spurs, lost the lead to draw with Leicester, and conceded two in four minutes to throw away the lead and lose to West Ham. City in the league and West Ham in the cup were the only top half sides we beat in that run, and two of the sides we beat were relegated.

It also ignores that we went on a run of six games without a win in the middle of the season.

It's not exactly a glowing review of the commitment of the players when a single extra point would have achieved CL qualification.

So every time a manager/team misses out on the Champions League by a point, it’s due to players not being committed or downing tools? When can we ever just admit that maybe the team was only as good as a fifth place finish? When can we ever just admit that the manager didn’t do anywhere near enough within two years, and that no one downed tools on them, they just didn’t do enough together as a team both manager and players ?
Judging those two years, we were consistently average (70 pts, 66 pts & FA Cup), our worst form by far actually coming mid season rather than downing tools at the end.
 
So every time a manager/team misses out on the Champions League by a point, it’s due to players not being committed or downing tools? When can we ever just admit that maybe the team was only as good as a fifth place finish? When can we ever just admit that the manager didn’t do anywhere near enough within two years, and that no one downed tools on them, they just didn’t do enough together as a team both manager and players ?
Judging those two years, we were consistently average (70 pts, 66 pts & FA Cup), our worst form by far actually coming mid season rather than downing tools at the end.

I think you've got a very strict definition of what "downing tools" actually is.

LvG is not one I'd highlight as an obvious example, but the fact is that there were stories coming out about player dissatisfaction and multiple players have openly criticised his methods after the fact.

I also just wanted to point out that the run of games you keep bringing up isn't exactly the glowing run you're making it out to be.
 
I think you've got a very strict definition of what "downing tools" actually is.

LvG is not one I'd highlight as an obvious example, but the fact is that there were stories coming out about player dissatisfaction and multiple players have openly criticised his methods after the fact.

I also just wanted to point out that the run of games you keep bringing up isn't exactly the glowing run you're making it out to be.
I don't think you'll ever have a situation at any club where every player is perfectly happy and in complete agreement with the manager's methods.
 
I think you've got a very strict definition of what "downing tools" actually is.

On the contrary. I absolutely understand the argument when a teams form goes to shit until a manager is fired and then instantly improves again.
The definition comes from industrial / strike action, on for example building sites, so in football it’s often used when a sides form takes such a drastic downturn that it appears the only logical explanation is them stopping playing to the best of their ability and purposely “striking” so to speak.

But it’s not players winning 8 in 12. That’s not me being strict, it’s factual.
Anyone claiming the opposite simply doesn’t understand the term.

The only time a good argument exists is on Mourinho, considering we finished 2nd just before and then went on an incredible run once he was fired.

I’d argue that considering our form post Ole, both with Ragnick and with the start of EtH’s reign, the team built by Ole was simply not very good. No-one went on strike due to Ole.
LVG’s side was just average and remained that way for both of his years.

Moyes is another one, and I think the players instantly “downed tools” somewhat due to going from SAF to such an underwhelming and uninspiring manager. But to claim it happens every 18 months is a lazy argument that absolves all managers of any blame.
 
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The issue between the two seasons is doing the 180 out of seemingly nowhere. Even if there are injuries, you can still slot players into a functioning system. You might not look as good and you may well drop points, but you won't capitulate or look lost at sea.

Too much was done too soon and the abandoning of one set of principles for another has compounded the issue. We've gone from a moderately solid and functional side to one trying to play a style of football we have a handful of players for. Strong, aggressive, pacey and powerful verticality demands a different profile to Dutch schools of thought; you want as close to a Mourinho set of players as possible for the former and players who aren't athletically dominant are more peripheral. Not my kind of football, but still it has its place and pros and cons.

My personal belief is unless you have real powerhouses in your side who can swarm on both sides of the ball, that method cannot work in the PL. Pace and power is all over the league and is not particularly threatening to the majority.

In relation to your post, I don't think this season plays out as it has, inclusive of the injuries and predicaments we've found ourselves in, playing the system we did last season.
Yes it's fair. It's lazy analytics from those who say that Pep plays the same style now he played in Barcelona or in Bayern or Klopp plays the same style they did at Dortmund or when he came to Prem - they both have redone like 80% of their systems to fit the League and how modern football works now.
That being said, I am sure there is some lazy reporting of how Ten Hag have done some unnecessary 180 turn because he is weak*.
I am more than sure he has done plenty to adapt the League, The Players, The opponents and overall football culture. That being said also, we have to take a extra into play how we have had to deal with ultimate 3 players in off the pitch antics (Greenwood, Sancho, Antony). + uncertainty of the ownership & seeing how the media loves to see Manchester United to struggle or to have the chance to use our name.


We should have had the media boycot months ago, get the club together as Antony came back and have a siege mentality communicated - where to build from.
 
Just seen only 4 teams have scored fewer goals than us. It's incredible given our offence has largely been fit and we've been playing 'attacking' football.
 
I don't think you'll ever have a situation at any club where every player is perfectly happy and in complete agreement with the manager's methods.

No, but you don't generally see leak after leak about how the squad hates the manager as we have with every single manager since Ferguson retired.

As I said, LvG is less prominent of an example than some of the others, but even while he was here we had rumblings of player discontent in the media, be it his training methods, man management, or tactics, and a few have gone on record to say how unpopular he was since they've left.

On the contrary. I absolutely understand the argument when a teams form goes to shit until a manager is fired and then instantly improves again.
The definition comes from industrial / strike action, on for example building sites, so in football it’s often used when a sides form takes such a drastic downturn that it appears the only logical explanation is them stopping playing to the best of their ability and purposely “striking” so to speak.

But it’s not players winning 8 in 12. That’s not me being strict, it’s factual.
Anyone claiming the opposite simply doesn’t understand the term.

The only time a good argument exists is on Mourinho, considering we finished 2nd just before and then went on an incredible run once he was fired.

I'd argue Mourinho was just the most extreme example, which is why I think your definition is strict.

If it requires the squad to literally give up en masse, then there are going to be very few instances to point at anywhere.

The reality is that, to varying degrees, the players did give up on every single manager we've had since Ferguson. Whether you want to personally classify that as "downing tools" isn't really relevant.
 
No, but you don't generally see leak after leak about how the squad hates the manager as we have with every single manager since Ferguson retired.

As I said, LvG is less prominent of an example than some of the others, but even while he was here we had rumblings of player discontent in the media, be it his training methods, man management, or tactics, and a few have gone on record to say how unpopular he was since they've left.



I'd argue Mourinho was just the most extreme example, which is why I think your definition is strict.

If it requires the squad to literally give up en masse, then there are going to be very few instances to point at anywhere.

The reality is that, to varying degrees, the players did give up on every single manager we've had since Ferguson. Whether you want to personally classify that as "downing tools" isn't really relevant.

It absolutely requires that the majority give up on a manager.

It’s human nature to lose faith in failing managers, and naturally some employees, in this case players, will always be unhappy with how a manager runs things or what he expects of them. It’s a managers job to manager that, if he fails at that, it’s another part of his failure.

Using such a lax definition of downing tools would simply mean that the majority of managerial sackings are not due to a failing manager but in fact due to downing tools. As prior to any sacking, it’s obvious much in a team is wrong and therefore many players will be unhappy.
Hence why it’s a lazy argument unless used in more extreme cases where results/performances drastically drop and then vastly improve once a manager is removed.
 
It absolutely requires that the majority give up on a manager.

It’s human nature to lose faith in failing managers, and naturally some employees, in this case players, will always be unhappy with how a manager runs things or what he expects of them. It’s a managers job to manager that, if he fails at that, it’s another part of his failure.

Using such a lax definition of downing tools would simply mean that the majority of managerial sackings are not due to a failing manager but in fact due to downing tools. As prior to any sacking, it’s obvious much in a team is wrong and therefore many players will be unhappy.
Hence why it’s a lazy argument unless used in more extreme cases where results/performances drastically drop and then vastly improve once a manager is removed.

I don't disagree and it's a separate argument on whether the loss of faith is fair.

I just don't think it's particularly wild to suggest that some of our players have, rightly or wrongly, given up on Ten Hag.

I also think there's a middle ground between blaming all shortcomings on the players "downing tools" and giving them free-reign to behave how they like because it ignores that some are basically unmanageable.
 
Sorry this is not true. ETH benched several of his signings against Newcastle in favour or starting McT and Maguire. Antony on bench. Why start Martial when we all know he will walk around. Why no Amrabat, who ETH chased all summer? Why drop Varanne in favour of Maguire. Why not pick Reguillon who ETH also signed? Why not play VDB in midfield who he managed at Ajax. Noone forced ETH to keep playing ETH and McT, newcastle have a ton of injuries but looked up for it and dominated. Stop making excuses.

Eh!! who am I making excuses for ? Read the post again, this time with your 'thinking cap on'!

Also note, we have got Bayen and Liverpool next week, might that have played a part in selection?
I would agree with your Martial comment, that was a surprise, but IMO ETH with his initial selection was gambling that we could hold off Newcastle, for an away draw and maybe even snatch a lucky win; but apart from Maguire and Shaw hardly anybody else showed up and we were lucky to escape a 3-0 or more drumming.

I suspect that ETH's rationale/thinking on such occasions, at this time, is under examination by certain players who with such an approach find they have to contribute more in areas they are not happy with and they don't like it... they are the ones you can see wandering about in a dream, watching the opposition run past them and generally looking like they don't give a shi*.
 
And he is - like it or not - team’s (joint) top goal scorer this season (having played fairly limited amount of minutes, so to speak).

Maybe his goal return is far from being good enough (surely so), but it is at least better that what other stars have produced. We need to keep it in mind - we don’t create enough chances.
Just to be clear i'm not taking shots at Rasmus, i'm just saying we cannot try to act like ETH is being crazy starting him considering our other options (Martial). Hojlund's age isn't an issue for me. Good enough = old enough.
 
Bingo. The problems do ultimately stem from a weak board, but ETH has exploited this and the effects have been negative.

Which is why I personally think the way forward is not with high-reputation managers, not if those are going to make such demands. There needs to be a decent board structure in place for player acquisitions. Then bring in coaches in who are happy to work within these confines. If no reputable manager accepts that condition, so be it, then work with those of little-to-no managerial reputation. Arteta had limited coaching experience before Arsenal, same with Xavi at Barca (or Pep back in the day), or Simeone at Atletico or Zidane at Real.. or.. or...or. The board needs to know what it's doing first and foremost, otherwise we're doomed anyway. Then, a competent coach will make it work.
Couldn’t agree more. Get in a coach who’s proven in developing a system with whatever players he’s given (and lesser players at that). Non high maintenance, someone who hasn’t worked at too many big clubs. And Don’t worry too much about trophies won or reputation. Would love to see us go down this route. It’s probably the only one we haven’t tried up until this point.
 
Couldn’t agree more. Get in a coach who’s proven in developing a system with whatever players he’s given (and lesser players at that). Non high maintenance, someone who hasn’t worked at too many big clubs. And Don’t worry too much about trophies won or reputation. Would love to see us go down this route. It’s probably the only one we haven’t tried up until this point.

These managers don't exist.
 
If he starts rashford and mctominay and we lose then he’ll go a long way down in my estimation.
Cannot have one rule for some (varane sancho) and not for others
 
Yeah I read the comments that were on The Athletic, I guess the majority is going into United We Stand. Interesting perspective, he still clearly believe he can get this on the right track, but there not enough in The Athletic article to see what convinced Mitten, IMHO.
 
I was being sarcastic, not every time the form of the team drops is it due to players downing tools. It can just be that they're not that good and therefore will go through fluctuations in form and confidence and then managers not doing a good job on top of that.
Ahh! Sorry for not picking up on that. I agree with what you said.
 
This is what you would have expected ETH to do, but due to injuries and that certain players are seeming to be 'taking their ball home', means he's had to 'have all hands to the pumps' and to resurrect such as Maguire and McT, both of whom were expected to be gone by now.

Sancho has given up the ghost/thrown the toys out of his pram, apparently because we are not playing in a manner that suits his skill set. Don't know whats up with Rashford, except perhaps he reached his skill/playing 'plateau' and he begins to realise now that every defender, especially in the PL, can predict his next move..even before he can! Martial has been 'wandering in the wilderness' for years, but has got back into the picture because of circumstances, not of his own making.

It would seem that injuries notwithstanding, both Casemiro and Varane are now regretting their move to OT, but still content to draw huge salaries, from the bench. The outstanding defender we have is sidelined through injury, between AWB/Dalot/ Reguilon we might have a half decent full back, but individually they all have weaknesses as top defenders, and so it goes on... Mount wondering why he's been brought here, VDB wondering why he is still here, Amrabat cannot believe his luck in being here, Perhaps its only Jonny Evans who actually knows why he's here! Poor lad Hojllund just wanting to get a decent pass from someone... it just goes on, perhaps its only the younger lads like Garnacho, Mainoo, Pellistri, Hannibal, etc. who are just happy to be in the squad, that gives ETH hope.

A lot more 'nashing' and 'grinding of teeth' to be endured yet I'm afraid!

I'm sure of that too.

Regardless of if he is sacked or stays. Utd won't be winning or competing for the league for a number of years yet.
 
There are plenty…

There are plenty of managers with a proven track record of developing a system with whichever random assortment of players he's given, but particularly lesser players, and that haven't actually achieved any real success or developed much of a reputation despite their proven track record and incredible ability to develop a system with whatever players he's given?

Are any of these managers in the room with you now?
 


Sure there were good periods in these, but we really can't be looking at these as the level we want to reach right? A Turkish club (1.47 to 1.64 xg) and a bottom half team (2.47 to 2.22 xg), conceding 40 shots between the 2 games... Does he not say the horrid defending and complete lack of control on display?

Very worrying if he thinks those 2 games were a decent level. We were dreadful.
 
We were doing that when they were available, this is not a player issue but a manager one.

He has himself said that we are playing more geared towards fast transition, so more long balls, more risky passes, more carelessness in possession.
This is something that needs working on, Onana needs to gell with our preferred defenders. It will get better.

We will still see long balls, City and Arsenal play a lot of them as well.
 
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