It’s the disrespect that’s galling. Win tonight and it’s not even close to a crisis funnily enough
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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I imagine it's all on a smaller scale here, but the scrutiny at Ajax can be huge. Ten Hag only did well there, so he didn't get much of it, but look at this season. Their ultra's literally broke down the doors of de Arena after Ajax Feyenoord to physically remove the board from power if need be. They repeatedly threatened the club to remove board members or they would keep doing these type of things. So at least from the fans, while on a smaller scale, they scrutiny is crazy.I would've thought there's a magnitude of order difference in the level of scrutiny and pressure ten Hag is under here compared to at Ajax. Granted, I've never seen a Dutch - Dutch, manager to media interaction and would need clarification on that matter from our Dutch contigent on here: @KirkDuyt @Cheimoon @AjaxCunian @AjaxNL and forgive me other Dutchies for not having instant recall on you (I'm also being presumptive in thinking @Strelok isn't Dutch?)
ten Hag's just been told to his face that the media are literally gunning for him/us to be in turmoil - a literal, face-to-face show of disrespect. No subtefuge, no conspiracy; things can't be like that with the Dutch press, surely?
The media is also extremely critical of Ajax with our biggest newspaper, De Telegraag constantly undermining the club at every turn. They will never be honest about doing it, but they definitely do.
Bottomline, United manager is a much bigger job with more money at stake and more people looking on, so the pressure is ofcourse higher, but at Ajax it's equally intense I think.
Really had no idea about the fanatacism aspect to Dutch footy until the last few years - always known of the hooligan aspect, but not the flat out fanatacism.
Love the insights. Cheers.
Mount has one of the highest ball winning stat in opponent half in the league. So ETH wants to press high and try to also win the ball very high in the opponent half. Mount and Bruno would have been a dream
@KirkDuyt already responded, but I would add that I think Dutch directness is a real thing and means that tv shows will explicitly say things in very harsh tones that I think would remain more implicit in the UK. But while that might be hard to take for foreign managers working in the Netherlands, I'm not sure what that means for Ten Hag in terms of pressure; after all, he himself has that directness himself as well, for example in his responses in press conferences.I would've thought there's a magnitude of order difference in the level of scrutiny and pressure ten Hag is under here compared to at Ajax. Granted, I've never seen a Dutch - Dutch, manager to media interaction and would need clarification on that matter from our Dutch contigent on here: @KirkDuyt @Cheimoon @AjaxCunian @AjaxNL and forgive me other Dutchies for not having instant recall on you (I'm also being presumptive in thinking @Strelok isn't Dutch?)
ten Hag's just been told to his face that the media are literally gunning for him/us to be in turmoil - a literal, face-to-face show of disrespect. No subtefuge, no conspiracy; things can't be like that with the Dutch press, surely?
As for your second paragraph: I've seen many posters say this, but I don't think the interviewer meant that he likes to see United in crisis specifically; more that the media like to see any football club being in crisis. After all, there isn't much of a story for them (given in-depth coverage of tactics doesn't seem to be their thing...) if a club is just don't alright and no-one's unhappy.
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Just wondering if that's why it appeared like he didn't care much about it and basically laughed it away, while the (English) people on this forum are running riot. With Dutch or German directness you don't see a big deal in that
That's ok when we don't have the ball. What about when we are in possession? This is what I mentioned in original comment.
That is exactly the problem, this team was designed to play gegenpressing but was never prepared to build the play from the back.
He wanted a De Jong-esque midfielder for that, a player that could not only dictate the game but carry the ball. He instead got Casemiro.
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Not getting elite, and very very rare player is not a plausible excuse IMO. You can easily build a team around players like Casemiro, Mount, even Fred who he didn't fancy.
Look at the best midfields in world football, look at our peak midfields, we had players like Carrick and Scholes dictating them. The biggest clubs in the world are supposed to have those rare midfielders.
Maybe...? It's not really criticism though, just really quite an absurd thing to say all round. But as I said above, I took it to mean 'we journalists like seeing crises', so not specifically for United. If that was Ten Hag's first understanding as well, he doesn't have to be insulted and his response is kinda as you'd expect.
But the journalist is English and culturally, even if a Freudian slip, knows damn well not to say things like that. We don't do directness or candidness in an official capacity, and those that do quickly become famed for their lack of restraint and leanings toward candour.
I think you raise a good point about the cultural directness aspect from the Dutch perspective. Know it well enough from my jaunts in Austria and Germany who are almost equally as abrupt in saying what they want to say and not beating around the bush.
Yeah, of course. As I said, it's an absurd thing to say, and you're right that it's even worse in the English cultural context. And more generally, what's the point in a journalist telling the interviewee that the media enjoy seeing crises in the interviewee's line of work. So what?! What do you expect them to say to that? Is there even a question in there? (Well, I guess he asked the question first and then added the dumb bit.) I was just talking about how it may have come across to Ten Hag though.
Yeah hadn't considered it from that angle. Funny too, because I'm often having to explain to my OH how her directness is offensive in this culture, as she doubles down and shrugs.
Back to football, I've been thinking about this post and the upcoming string of highly competitive fixtures. As you say, with players coming back, and on the assumption that Ten Hag doesn't actually intend to play awful football, you'd now want to see evidence of him going back more explicitly to implementing the sort of progressive style everyone expected of him when he first joined. But based on his approach for a while now, I'm kinda worried he'll want defensive solidity first. But if so, then when would he finally go for something more progressive? Or would he never?
All hypothetical of course, but so the upcoming month might be quite interesting and revealing tactically.
Or not. We'll see.
Yeah, I have to watch it over here as well. I'm not quite peak directness but I know I have to watch it anyway at work.
I know that feel from business travels to GB... I tend to be quite direct even for German standards, so let's just say it wasn't always easy for me. Or for the people I had to deal with...Yeah, I have to watch it over here as well. I'm not quite peak directness but I know I have to watch it anyway at work.
Well it would be directly at odds with Mainoo's game to continue to play such a basic, vertical game. ETH was after FDJ as his primary piece to facilitate his entire approach. Mainoo obviously isn't FDJ, but he offers tenets that enable the play to literally progress from keeper straight through the spine of the team and up into the final third of the pitch. Previously it was prudent to bypass the first wave turning out into midfield and assessing options because we had nobody who could do that, but now we do, and from there, observe the pitch and be selective with his next action, whether that be driving forward himself, passing short or going wide or long - it's an entire bloc of the pitch we have had to overlook that now becomes live again, in the most Cruyffian way possible so for me, this where I expect to see certain aspects of ten Hag's desired style of play come to the fore.Back to football, I've been thinking about this post and the upcoming string of highly competitive fixtures. As you say, with players coming back, and on the assumption that Ten Hag doesn't actually intend to play awful football, you'd now want to see evidence of him going back more explicitly to implementing the sort of progressive style everyone expected of him when he first joined. But based on his approach for a while now, I'm kinda worried he'll want defensive solidity first. But if so, then when would he finally go for something more progressive? Or would he never?
All hypothetical of course, but so the upcoming month might be quite interesting and revealing tactically.
Or not. We'll see.
It should be clearly established within a very small number of games that Mainoo will have the most touches and passes of the ball and become a centeralised hub from which we decide how to progress the play. There should be different secondary and tertiary actions now as the pitch opens up in wholly different ways than it could before. The whole midfield should be more mobile and working harder to find open pockets of space comfortable in the knowledge there is now somebody in there who more often than not will not only find them, but then work with them to create more angles and positions to manipulate and exploit.
No pressure on the kid...
... but his profile is transformational for ETH. Interestingly enough, the plan may well have been to play Mainoo with Casemiro and Mount from the outset, but Mainoo's injury scuppered that. All of a sudden the manager doesn't seem so insane as that's a very functional and cohesive midfield on paper as opposed to the #6, #10, #10 catastrophe we went with instead.Suffice it to say, I am looking forward to seeing how we look over these upcoming games where others seem to be honing in on the results. Whilst that's important, us looking like a team that can actually go places based on a style of play is by far the more important factor for me, because that then means it's just a matter of finding the right pieces to slot in to a solid framework that is on an upward trajectory, as opposed to the forlorn football we're all too familiar with, which we've seen time and time again that has a clear cap and set of limitations.
Yeah, those are good points. Put Mainoo in a defensive counterattacking setup, and he'll look useless. But clearly Ten Hag doesn't think he's useless, and so hopefully that does indicate his intended direction.Well it would be directly at odds with Mainoo's game to continue to play such a basic, vertical game. ETH was after FDJ as his primary piece to facilitate his entire approach. Mainoo obviously isn't FDJ, but he offers tenets that enable the play to literally progress from keeper straight through the spine of the team and up into the final third of the pitch. Previously it was prudent to bypass the first wave turning out into midfield and assessing options because we had nobody who could do that, but now we do, and from there, observe the pitch and be selective with his next action, whether that be driving forward himself, passing short or going wide or long - it's an entire bloc of the pitch we have had to overlook that now becomes live again, in the most Cruyffian way possible so for me, this where I expect to see certain aspects of ten Hag's desired style of play come to the fore.
It should be clearly established within a very small number of games that Mainoo will have the most touches and passes of the ball and become a centeralised hub from which we decide how to progress the play. There should be different secondary and tertiary actions now as the pitch opens up in wholly different ways than it could before. The whole midfield should be more mobile and working harder to find open pockets of space comfortable in the knowledge there is now somebody in there who more often than not will not only find them, but then work with them to create more angles and positions to manipulate and exploit.
No pressure on the kid...
Suffice it to say, I am looking forward to seeing how we look over these upcoming games where others seem to be honing in on the results. Whilst that's important, us looking like a team that can actually go places based on a style of play is by far the more important factor for me, because that then means it's just a matter of finding the right pieces to slot in to a solid framework that is on an upward trajectory, as opposed to the forlorn football we're all too familiar with, which we've seen time and time again that has a clear cap and set of limitations.
I'd say having Martinez back would be transformational for that as well, cause in the current squad, he is probably the key player when it comes to connecting Onana to midfield through quick passing (instead of mid/long passes). That's where the squad remains a little messy, because outside Shaw, United doesn't seem to have a lot of defenders that can reliably and consistently receive the ball in tight spaces (opposition applying its press) and quickly move it upfield.
Your post makes me also think about Bruno again. That midfield you describe does make sense, but where does Bruno fit in with that? Competition with Mount? But he's quite a different player. I am anyway not sure how well Bruno fits Ten Hag's ideal approach, since Bruno's natural approach of intuitive chaos is difficult to fit into a tactic. Or maybe this is where the Bruno on RW games fit in, and Ten Hag likes to make him into another Tadic/Ziyech-type of wide playmaker - @Adnan and I were talking about that last year. But Bruno is quite different from Antony, so it doesn't make sense if they're supposed to compete for RW. On the other hand, it's also good to have different options in the squad, rather than just having stylistically equivalent players competing in each position. Bruno would be an interesting joker in that regard. But he's also the captain, so Ten Hag's idea of his ideal first team for this season is unlikely to exclude Bruno.
But hey, as long as there are injuries all over the place, that first team vision will never happen anyway, and Ten Hag will be happy to at least still have quality players available for different positions!
And yet only four points off the top four with a shitload of injuries having players who are so inept he can't play them how he really wants.
His subs have cost us tonight (as well as his keeper, obviously). To take off our focal point and replace him with a mannequin is crazy.
He's tactically inept when we have to hold any sort of lead. You cannot play like this away in the CL.
CL group stage exit. A December of PL hammerings coming up.
What is the point in keeping him?
What is the point in keeping him?
His favoritism (never drop Onana) is going to cost him.
If you're talking about Hojlund, whilst he's to blame for a lot here, Hojlund's only just come back from injury so I think it was pretty obvious he was not going to be able to play a full game
Don't start him then if he can only play 50 mins. And definitely don't replace him for Martial the laziest man in our squad.
If you don't play him at all then Martial just starts from the beginning ??
Why take a amrabat off while McT is just walking around?
Erik was fine here, we had more than enough chances to put this to bed long time ago.
Quality control
feck this manager and anybody that loves him
Mount and Onana should be enough to sack any manager. Colossal waste of money
Feck this guy. We get battered to our rivals, we bottle every lead. Dumped out of the UCL, dumped out of the Carabao. Not gonna win the title.
Our openness after going two goals up, twice in this match, isn't fine in my books. His keeper also had a shocking game.
His only mistake today was signing Onana.
Disastrous. Can't beat anyone half decent away from home.
We played well but feck the manager, nice. Did you expect him to expect Onana to make 3 costly mistakes when he's not made any since Copenhagen penalty?
If he got to do his United stint all over again, does he sign any of the players he's signed?
Sack
Always one. How on earth can you blame the manager for this? Keeper made 2 mistakes! The players let a 2 goal lead slip twice
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