Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Baxquux said:
No, fans falling for over-lauded coaches who blame their expensively assembled, almost hand-picked squads for not playing with any level of fluency once one or two players are injured - with the style not great for months before either - as usual. Leeds under Bielsa (1st season in PL) and Brighton (Potter onward) played better football - Brentford likewise - without anything like the expenditure. All that's saved us is luck and a couple of 'moments'.

With the resources United have, any of the 1st team squad should be at the level (through talent and then through coaching) - to come in and play at a 'base' level in terms of movement, speed of passing etc even if what would be wins end up being draws now and again because of playing some of the second-string and not always converting chances....
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No. What Ange said was rubbish. At Spurs Ange might get the time to play the system he wants even if it means he finishes 7th in the premier league. At United no manager will be given the excuse if he finishes 7th. You play the system that will give you the best results for your team. If we finish 7th and ETH 'plays beautiful football' he's a goner and rightly so. We aren't Tottenham. It's apples and oranges.
 
I don't necessarily agree with Ange but I do think ETH is hiding behind excuses. At the very least he should have us looking like a competent football side even if we never play like peak Ajax. With the players we have we should be playing better football than fecking Wolves and Bournemouth at least.
 
the_cliff said:
No. What Ange said was rubbish. At Spurs Ange might get the time to play the system he wants even if it means he finishes 7th in the premier league. At United no manager will be given the excuse if he finishes 7th. You play the system that will give you the best results for your team. If we finish 7th and ETH 'plays beautiful football' he's a goner and rightly so. We aren't Tottenham. It's apples and oranges.
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So when do you start playing good football? Because results are always important.

Why does it not work like this at other big clubs? I don't see Liverpool or City or Real or Barca or Bayern saying it's fine to play shit football as long as you're getting results? Also what results are we getting? The 4th place trophy we derided Arsenal for wanting?
 
the_cliff said:
No. What Ange said was rubbish. At Spurs Ange might get the time to play the system he wants even if it means he finishes 7th in the premier league. At United no manager will be given the excuse if he finishes 7th. You play the system that will give you the best results for your team. If we finish 7th and ETH 'plays beautiful football' he's a goner and rightly so. We aren't Tottenham. It's apples and oranges.
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Yes, because the fans have never given cover to managers with talk of projects when they've been struggling for results in recent years, and the club never been slow to sack managers when they've been languishing below the CL places....

If we were Madrid, it'd be a different matter, but for better or worse a manager can absolutely buy themselves leeway and a season of up and down results by talking about a project and 'progressive football' and 'bedding in a system' and introducing new players.
 
His ability to clash with players is becoming a worrying thing. It seems that he has big issues in man management. It is strange that every problem that he has with a player goes straight in no repair zone.
 
TsuWave said:
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While i mostly agree with him in this, it is funny to watch hypocrisy by the media. He is media darling right now and can say what he wants. While his tactical decision against Celski was the most stupid thing which i ever saw by any manager.
 
RedSky said:
Don't Tottenham have an awful injury list too and have done for several weeks? Its just become more of an issue with having their two best players this season injured in the same match.

Just like Chelsea having had bad injuries too.

This is the time we'll see how serious Poste is at Tottenham. The first winter fixture list is always very difficult for a new comer to the league.
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There was a stat floating around on the last game week(or maybe the one before) showing for each team, how many players had started more than 2 games so far in the season. Spurs only had 13 players that had started more than 2 games. I think we wad 21 or something.
 
The notion we have to play football that is unquestionably worst in the entire league class to accrue points, is an interesting one. That’s grace not a single post-Fergie manager has been afforded.

Standards have dropped so low that not only is such thinking normalised; it is staunchly defended.

Certainly a new phenomena. Boggles the mind that it has come to this. Very surreal times.

There can’t be a single soul on here who would have been OK with this pre-signing. This from a man who was playing some of the sexiest football on the continent pre-arrival, no less.
 
the_cliff said:
No. What Ange said was rubbish. At Spurs Ange might get the time to play the system he wants even if it means he finishes 7th in the premier league. At United no manager will be given the excuse if he finishes 7th. You play the system that will give you the best results for your team. If we finish 7th and ETH 'plays beautiful football' he's a goner and rightly so. We aren't Tottenham. It's apples and oranges.
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If you think your system is the answer and the best, then surely you play that way as you think it will build the best results? Unless he thinks his system isn't good enough, which poses further questions...
 
Fortitude said:
The notion we have to play football that is unquestionably worst in the entire league class to accrue points, is an interesting one. That’s grace not a single post-Fergie manager has been afforded.

Standards have dropped so low that not only is such thinking normalised; it is staunchly defended.

Certainly a new phenomena. Boggles the mind that it has come to this. Very surreal times.

There can’t be a single soul on here who would have been OK with this pre-signing. This from a man who was playing some of the sexiest football on the continent pre-arrival, no less.
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Where have you seen this notion?
 
Conor said:
There was a stat floating around on the last game week(or maybe the one before) showing for each team, how many players had started more than 2 games so far in the season. Spurs only had 13 players that had started more than 2 games. I think we wad 21 or something.
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It's 15 for Tottenham and 21 for us. But we've arguably got a bigger squad than Tottenham though.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
His ability to clash with players is becoming a worrying thing. It seems that he has big issues in man management. It is strange that every problem that he has with a player goes straight in no repair zone.
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In terms of personality, he's right out of the same mould as LVG. Although LVG actually showed a sense of humour now and then. There's only so long this 'strict headteacher' approach will wash, and I think it's already clearly wearing very thin now. I'll be honest, I'd be envious of other players in the league who look like they have fun, good relationships with their managers, if I was a United player. I see zero joy in our players these days, they look like they don't enjoy playing at all. I think there's only certain personalities that will get on with a manager like that.
 
Fortitude said:
I hope that’s not a serious question.
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I have seen nobody suggest that we have to play the worst football in the league to win games. Plenty of people are acknowledging that we have had to change our approach and be dynamic in our tactics because of overwhelming injuries and other off the field stuff, but what you said isn't really that.
 
crossy1686 said:
I’m not saying Varane should be starting, I’m saying is falling out with the player in the middle of the season a good idea? Everyone is droppable, but to fall out with the player also takes effort on the managers behalf.
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But to me the only alternative to the manager not ‘ falling out’ with said player is then to play them, so I’m not really sure what the manager is meant to do. If the story is true the only thing he can do is explain to Varane and hopes he is professional. Like all players should hopefully be. Happy or not.
 
Baxquux said:
Yes, because the fans have never given cover to managers with talk of projects when they've been struggling for results in recent years, and the club never been slow to sack managers when they've been languishing below the CL places....

If we were Madrid, it'd be a different matter, but for better or worse a manager can absolutely buy themselves leeway and a season of up and down results by talking about a project and 'progressive football' and 'bedding in a system' and introducing new players.
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I highly doubt that. You know, considering we've had a season with up and down results this season and everyone wants him sacked. Fact of the matter is no post Fergie United manager has survived finishing below the UCL places so comparing Spurs to United is none sense.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
Agree

Klopp and Pep have been discussing player injuries and issues with amount of games played in a season. Whatever 2 quality squad pep says is nonsense but Klopp is a closer comparison to us.

Last season his pool team struggled badly and people were happy to let fatigue be an excuse because “he has credit in the bank”. Ok, that’s fair in terms of him getting a pass but it doesn’t address the fact that ETHs United played a similar amount of games in one season, when there was a World Cup uniquely squeezed in between the season. It’s never happened before and yet some people think it’s just making excuses, which is kind of silly really.

All the injuries we are having this season and issues with fitness, is there any chance that it’s misting down to the unprecedented gruelling schedule that we had and is even affecting teams that didn’t have as many games as us last season?

Klopp has salah , pep has Haaland. ETH has had a superstar who undermined him, an injury prone Frenchman , a Burnley player loaned out to a Turkish team and an unproven 20 year old who had never even played in the EPL. I mean Hoijland (who I like) is the striker you buy when you already have a proven striker at the club. The squad mismanaging by the club for 11 years has been next level incompetence. It happens for every United manager, it’s not their fault, it’s the clubs responsibility to give a manager a balanced squad and it never happens.

Then you look at the injuries, basically our entire starting defence. The season we did what most fans wanted and brought in a replacement keeper, who is trying to settle into a squad decimated with injuries and no settled defence.

Then we have the owner issues, the entire future of the club is unclear. How does that affect seriel winners like Varane or Casemerio at the twilight of their careers ? Regardless of manager they have to be unsettled with how unlcear Uniteds future is, I’d say they aren’t alone.

And then of course theirs the accusations against players and Sanchos ego disrupting things.

I feel like there’s prob things I’m forgetting but any one or two of these things can unsettle teams, but ETH is navigating more issues than any top manager you can quote.

People keep minimising the clubs issues as “excuses” without actually any sort of meaningful explanation as to why they should be ignored. The best clubs in the world; the ones we are supposedly aspiring to be, have little to none of the issues our manager is having to navigate and yet people think “he manages the team, that’s his problem” as if it’s that simple.

It really isn’t and most people don’t wnt ETH sacked, not because everything he doee is perfect or unquestionable. Its because he is at a handicap to every other top class manager at functioning clubs and most of us would prefer even a few horrendous seasons of one man fixing what’s broken then 18-24 cycles of sh*t.

People say “but other clubs…. Right, what other clubs have as many issues at United? What other world class club has spent as much as United the last 11 years and failed miserably even to consistently make top 4? Why can city win a league with pelligrini or Mancini? Why can Barca or Madrid win in Europe or spain with unknown managers ? Even Bayern won a CL with a manager who did what Pep couldn’t.

A club as wealthy and spending as much as United should finish in top 4 regardless of manager. Spending wins for every other top club except United , why is that?

It’s ironic that some people call those of us who don’t want ETH sacked for these very reasons “cult of manager” supporters. By their very belief “we need a world class manager to get more from this squad”, they believe that we just need to find the right manager. They are literally pinning all their hope on one man fixing things.

I don’t know if ETH can turn things around but I’d like to see him try, while working with our club that may be finally about to address some of the major issues that has had the club languishing for a decade.
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You’ve pretty much covered a majority of the main issues that have disrupted the progress that Ten had made last season and one which we could have built on if even one of the scenarios had been different, ie from injuries to personal issues with players.


I’ll not go over all the points but I think the main theme was reasonable arguments and rationale. When can we compare teams and when not, is past achievement worthy of consideration? I just think we let expectations take us away and not always applying context.

As you say nobody blindly trust anybody in this situation as things can hit extremes at the minute so all I’m looking for is stability. I believe I saw enough progress in the areas I was looking for to let me believe if we can get the next big purchases right we can develop. As you say it’s a group endeavour to turn things around and irrational mindset from fans won’t help.

With key players coming back I hope to see improved play too. The fact we have shown some resistance in recent games gives me hope.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
But to me the only alternative to the manager not ‘ falling out’ with said player is then to play them, so I’m not really sure what the manager is meant to do. If the story is true the only thing he can do is explain to Varane and hopes he is professional. Like all players should hopefully be. Happy or not.
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It's not though is it? The solution to the problem isn't black or white. If Varane doesn't deserve to play then he doesn't deserve to play, the managers job is to explain to the player why he's not playing and what he has to do to get back in the team. The player then has the right to agree or disagree with the managers assessment and with the advice given on how to get back into the team. There should be no falling out over this, it's just a constructive discussion, unless someone is being unreasonable for whatever reason, and by all accounts, it's the manager.

Varane doesn't have a history of falling out with managers, Ten Hag has fallen out with 3 players in the last year, and that's discounting his time at Ajax where he did the same. So you've got to ask the question, what exactly is he saying when he criticises the players and what is he saying regarding getting back into the team? Something is rubbing people the wrong way, and to fall out like this suggests it's not the first time it's happened.
 
Conor said:
I have seen nobody suggest that we have to play the worst football in the league to win games. Plenty of people are acknowledging that we have had to change our approach and be dynamic in our tactics because of overwhelming injuries and other off the field stuff, but what you said isn't really that.
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It's actually insane how people can't comprehend this. People expect us to play a certain style of play when we've been hit with as many injuries as we have is ridiculous. We haven't played a game this season with our first choice back 4 and we've had to chop and change our midfield almost every game. Do people think Pep can turn a back 4 of AWB - Evans - Maguire - Reguillon/Amrabat into the base of a possession based high lined defence or something ? Our only 2 defenders that can actually play the ball out of the back have been out since day 1...
 
the_cliff said:
It's actually insane how people can't comprehend this. People expect us to play a certain style of play when we've been hit with as many injuries as we have is ridiculous. We haven't played a game this season with our first choice back 4 and we've had to chop and change our midfield almost every game. Do people think Pep can turn a back 4 of AWB - Evans - Maguire - Reguillon/Amrabat into the base of a possession based high lined defence or something ? Our only 2 defenders that can actually play the ball out of the back have been out since day 1...
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This is fine if it was only for this season but the reality is, and we have mentioned this millionth of times already, is that we have been playing crap football since March. That's basically a whole year now.

Meanwhile, people convincing themselves this side will suddenly play great football once Shaw and Martinez are back are just deluding themselves. We were shit while both were playing too.
 
Ridiculous quotes coming from ETH again. Surely having an identity and way of playing goes hand in hand with winning?

If he want's to win he wont do it playing the way we have this season.
 
crossy1686 said:
Hear me out on this one, but you don’t actually have to play left footed defenders on the left side. There’s no rule against it, it’s being stubborn for the sake of it. Creating artificial rules for a style of play that we haven’t seen anyway.
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Is this a Dutch manager thing? LVG is the only other manager I recall who was really weird about it too, to the extent that we ended up with academy players who weren't remotely near first-team quality like Tyler Blackett and Paddy McNair getting tons of games.
 
crossy1686 said:
It's not though is it? The solution to the problem isn't black or white. If Varane doesn't deserve to play then he doesn't deserve to play, the managers job is to explain to the player why he's not playing and what he has to do to get back in the team. The player then has the right to agree or disagree with the managers assessment and with the advice given on how to get back into the team. There should be no falling out over this, it's just a constructive discussion, unless someone is being unreasonable for whatever reason, and by all accounts, it's the manager.

Varane doesn't have a history of falling out with managers, Ten Hag has fallen out with 3 players in the last year, and that's discounting his time at Ajax where he did the same. So you've got to ask the question, what exactly is he saying when he criticises the players and what is he saying regarding getting back into the team? Something is rubbing people the wrong way, and to fall out like this suggests it's not the first time it's happened.
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I think most of life is better in grey but to me the solution is pretty straight forward. You’ve basically said back to me what I was referring to in the first place. We have heard from neither the player or manager publicly to state either has an issue, yet we have reacted negatively against to the latter creating at this moment fictional story. You’ve created a scenario where someone has potentially been unreasonable and by “ all reports” come to the conclusion the manager is to blame due to history with previous players.

The context of each situation is different for a start, how would you have handled the a Ronaldo out interest? Or Sancho? I’m assuming you think he was wrong in both? Also it easier for one man to upset 30 in his situation than a player upsetting what, 4 to 5 mangers in Varane situation? No comparison for me.

I see a lot of speculation but nothing concrete I’m afraid. I think he has been fair with mostly everyone in the squad, even some of those others would have and want to get rid off. It’s had mixed reviews as others have played well and established players have not. Ironically he is getting roasted for not dropping Bruno and Marcus.

Criticise all you want but at least base it on fact, not media speculation designed to get negative reactions.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Is this a Dutch manager thing? LVG is the only other manager I recall who was really weird about it too, to the extent that we ended up with academy players who weren't remotely near first-team quality like Tyler Blackett and Paddy McNair getting tons of games.
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Yeah it seems to be a Dutch philosophy that hasn’t proved its worth since the last time a Dutch coach won something, which was the 90’s. You’ve got genuine world class defenders who you’re refusing to play together because of passing angles. By that logic Rio and Vidic wouldn’t have started in the same team. It just doesn’t make sense on many levels.
 
crossy1686 said:
It's not though is it? The solution to the problem isn't black or white. If Varane doesn't deserve to play then he doesn't deserve to play, the managers job is to explain to the player why he's not playing and what he has to do to get back in the team. The player then has the right to agree or disagree with the managers assessment and with the advice given on how to get back into the team. There should be no falling out over this, it's just a constructive discussion, unless someone is being unreasonable for whatever reason, and by all accounts, it's the manager.

Varane doesn't have a history of falling out with managers, Ten Hag has fallen out with 3 players in the last year, and that's discounting his time at Ajax where he did the same. So you've got to ask the question, what exactly is he saying when he criticises the players and what is he saying regarding getting back into the team? Something is rubbing people the wrong way, and to fall out like this suggests it's not the first time it's happened.
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Is it certain there has been a falling out though? Ten Hag denied it at the press conference for example.

Also, I can't remember a lot of falling out at Ajax. I'm only aware of Noa Lang, but that was definitely deserved; and the Ronaldo and Sancho situations on United are more logically blamed on the players as well. You make it sound like Ten Hag unreasonably picks fights with players left right and centre, but that doesn't seem true.
 
Borninthe80ts said:
I think most of life is better in grey but to me the solution is pretty straight forward. You’ve basically said back to me what I was referring to in the first place. We have heard from neither the player or manager publicly to state either has an issue, yet we have reacted negatively against to the latter creating at this moment fictional story. You’ve created a scenario where someone has potentially been unreasonable and by “ all reports” come to the conclusion the manager is to blame due to history with previous players.

The context of each situation is different for a start, how would you have handled the a Ronaldo out interest? Or Sancho? I’m assuming you think he was wrong in both? Also it easier for one man to upset 30 in his situation than a player upsetting what, 4 to 5 mangers in Varane situation? No comparison for me.

I see a lot of speculation but nothing concrete I’m afraid. I think he has been fair with mostly everyone in the squad, even some of those others would have and want to get rid off. It’s had mixed reviews as others have played well and established players have not. Ironically he is getting roasted for not dropping Bruno and Marcus.

Criticise all you want but at least base it on fact, not media speculation designed to get negative reactions.
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I’m basing my analysis on the assumption that Ten Hag singled out Varane for criticism after the City game because he played too many square balls, which in one instance cost us a goal. From the reports, this is when the clash happened and since then Varane hasn’t been in the team.

I have no problem with the sale of Varane and I would have sold him the summer Ten Hag arrived anyway, I don’t think he’s that good, but as I said, my concerns are around the manager seemingly falling out with successful players at will when he feels they’re not living up to his ideals, which by all accounts also, he’s not actually drilling them with right now due to injuries.
 
Castia said:
Ridiculous quotes coming from ETH again. Surely having an identity and way of playing goes hand in hand with winning?

If he want's to win he wont do it playing the way we have this season.
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Not at all. Identity and passion is what builds up to winning. And winning again and again. We seem to have lost that, and is now a club of self entitlement and whining. Every success is a process, unless you just won the lottery. We have so much negativity around our club. From media bullying, owners to self-indulgent fans. It takes a tow for any man to turn something this broken around.
 
Cheimoon said:
Is it certain there has been a falling out though? Ten Hag denied it at the press conference for example.

Also, I can't remember a lot of falling out at Ajax. I'm only aware of Noa Lang, but that was definitely deserved; and the Ronaldo and Sancho situations on United are more logically blamed on the players as well. You make it sound like Ten Hag unreasonably picks fights with players left right and centre, but that doesn't seem true.
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No of course I’m not certain, but we can do a quick poll of how many players Ten Hag has sidelined for whatever reason and how many players in the PL have been sidelined by other managers in the last 12 months.

Let’s not forget that he’s frozen Maguire and a bunch of others out of the team until he needed them also. We had a few players moaning on international duty last season that they wanted to play more but no one cared because they weren’t Bruno or Rashford.
 
crossy1686 said:
No of course I’m not certain, but we can do a quick poll of how many players Ten Hag has sidelined for whatever reason and how many players in the PL have been sidelined by other managers in the last 12 months.

Let’s not forget that he’s frozen Maguire and a bunch of others out of the team until he needed them also. We had a few players moaning on international duty last season that they wanted to play more but no one cared because they weren’t Bruno or Rashford.
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So what do you want him to do, rotate varane and maguire every game?

Maguire was in the worst form of his career and was rightfully sidelined. He has taken his chances this season and now it’s up to Varane to gain his spot back. It’s called competition
 
crossy1686 said:
It hurts deep in your soul when someone says something remotely against Ten Hag doesn’t it?
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Nothing to so with ETH, he is just talking bollocks, simple as that. You on the other hand want him out so bad that you bring him in any topic no matter what it is.
 
crossy1686 said:
No of course I’m not certain, but we can do a quick poll of how many players Ten Hag has sidelined for whatever reason and how many players in the PL have been sidelined by other managers in the last 12 months.

Let’s not forget that he’s frozen Maguire and a bunch of others out of the team until he needed them also. We had a few players moaning on international duty last season that they wanted to play more but no one cared because they weren’t Bruno or Rashford.
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That's moving the goal posts quite a bit. You were talking about 'falling out' and that Ten Hag had a history of that with Ajax as well. So: what's that history at Ajax outside Noa Long? And at United, how much was Ten Hag to blame for the Ronaldo and Sancho situations? And where is the conclusive evidence that there has been a falling out with Varane? Or if there is any, what did actually happen and who's being stupid here? Cause if I ignore the rhetoric, there doesn't seem to be much substance to it all.

And as for those moved goal posts: Maguire was considered not good enough and didn't play, and now he does and is even a starter. Calling that 'frozen out' is a rhetorical choice you make to suit your narrative, it could easily be described differently as well.

This is not to say that Ten Hag is a great man manager, but there is quite a distance between that and 'falling out with everyone'. Also, he seemed to be well liked at Ajax, for what it's worth.
 
Big Ben Foster said:
Is this a Dutch manager thing? LVG is the only other manager I recall who was really weird about it too, to the extent that we ended up with academy players who weren't remotely near first-team quality like Tyler Blackett and Paddy McNair getting tons of games.
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The thing is, Varane is statistically one of the most two-footed defenders around, and has consistently been so for years.

https://images.app.goo.gl/Gpbuhah2cnFmGANNA

https://images.app.goo.gl/d2FEZYwaRsvbEHWn8

Now he's never been a particularly adventurous passer with either foot, but I feel like there's some kind of collective mass delusion over Varane's footedness. He's always looked comfortable on either side going short and the stats back it up.

Maybe Ten Hag's preference is due to wanting his defenders to be more direct in the absence of an effective midfield, but I just can't buy that Varane has slipped to the bottom of the pecking order because he has no left foot - he quite obviously does.
 
evil_geko said:
Nothing to so with ETH, he is just talking bollocks, simple as that. You on the other hand want him out so bad that you bring him in any topic no matter what it is.
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How is he talking bollocks when he's done it at Celtic and Tottenham in a relatively short space of time? Mate, I want nothing more than the manager to stop being a bellend and turn things around so I can enjoy watching us again.
 
Blood Mage said:
I don't necessarily agree with Ange but I do think ETH is hiding behind excuses.
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Yeah, not least because he didnt have particularly amazing players at Ajax. Final season was Blind, Gravenberch, Alvarez, Tadic, Haller.... hardly elite tier possession players.

Antony and Martinez who he brought with him. Plus Onana and VDB from his earlier Ajax side.
 
crossy1686 said:
Or he has a point? Coach and play the way you want to play, the players will get it eventually, they’re professionals who want to succeed, they’re not babies who need to be ordered around because they don’t really want to do anything hard.

You can’t turn McTomminay into Zidane but you can coach him to fit into a system, you still need better players to win stuff.
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I think the old saying 'bad habits are hard to break' seems true. I'm studying machine learning and research on the brain shows the later you address old styles or activities, the harder it is to reverse them due to the plasticity of brain. The brain stops developing around 20 to 25 years of age so there's a fair window to correct weaknesses. I suspect it's not perceived as beneficial though due to the more intense coaching and the trend of managers coming and going fairly quickly.
 
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