That’s completely different. They are not rebuilding from a position of being totally shit, like us. We can rebuild and still be shit in a day. We have to go from being shit to being the best, it doesn’t happen overnight. You know that, of course.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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It's not simplistic whatsoever. People raised red flags during both of those second placed finishes and were vindicated. People are now claiming they're vindicated for raising red flags last season too. I'm talking about fan reaction here.
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You contradict your own point in every single post.
How did you get 100 managers? You had to name some alternatives. How did you assign them odds? By having an idea of what they're capable of.
Unless you're suggesting a random blind collection, which is obviously ridiculous, then by your very example you've come up with 99 other managers and assigned odds to them based on how likely they are too succeed.
I'm not asking for a list of 99 managers, and a justification for their odds, I'm asking for one. Liking this manager or not is irrelevant, it's about whether or not there's an alternative who's likely to do a better job, if there is then we should be looking to get them in no matter how high we might be flying.
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Just seen a clip of the 7-0, still stings.
He should have been out the door that day really. Imagine Madrid, Liverpool...... losing to their biggest rivals like that.
He should have been out the door that day really. Imagine Madrid, Liverpool...... losing to their biggest rivals like that.
well, it says rather a lot about you if you hadn't heard of Postecoglou... of course you have to have someone in mind if you sack your manager otherwise yoiu end up like Leeds or Spurs in the past...Two things about posters still backing ETH:
1) Posters say even though the club has spent 400m for ETH's signings, it wasn't all the players that he wanted. But isn't that part and parcel of the transfer game? Clubs don't always get ANY player they want (even Real Madrid). And even so, the players that we've signed are approved by ETH. With that being said, isn't part of being a good manager is to work with what you've got? Why did we spend a feck ton of money and somehow look worse than last season?
2) Another thing being parroted around is the same tired question, "If we sack ETH, which candidate can replace him? There's no one else." The only logical answer to that question is how the feck should I know who to replace ETH with.
It's on the club and the board to decide on this. To say that there is no available candidate on this planet sounds extremely ignorant. Personally I never heard of Ange. Spurs snapped him up and now they're top of the table. It's not the fans job to decide on ETH's replacement. The fans chose ETH and look how that turned out.
It could happen again this season.
That’s not it. The club got a very good structure and foundation from top to bottom. The balance between finance and sports are very good. Don’t kid yourself that it’s just about buying the best players and have a manager doing the rest. It’s important to lay the foundation first and then build a functional squad who play in a style the club wants to play. Adding more players to a balanced squad who got a clear identity on how they play are much easier than making existing and new players learn how to play.
Real Madrid don’t change up their strategy every time a new manager arrives. They want managers who fit their strategy first and foremost.
The problem for United is that we got no clear strategy and keep changing up from manager to manager instead of having a setup from top to bottom working together to achieve common goals.
I hope we stick with ten Hag. He is not going to give up on how we should play. I am certain Sir Jim will make this process much better if he is successful with his bid. No doubt ten Hag could need some help from better management.
Two things about posters still backing ETH:
1) Posters say even though the club has spent 400m for ETH's signings, it wasn't all the players that he wanted. But isn't that part and parcel of the transfer game? Clubs don't always get ANY player they want (even Real Madrid). And even so, the players that we've signed are approved by ETH. With that being said, isn't part of being a good manager is to work with what you've got? Why did we spend a feck ton of money and somehow look worse than last season?
2) Another thing being parroted around is the same tired question, "If we sack ETH, which candidate can replace him? There's no one else." The only logical answer to that question is how the feck should I know who to replace ETH with.
It's on the club and the board to decide on this. To say that there is no available candidate on this planet sounds extremely ignorant. Personally I never heard of Ange. Spurs snapped him up and now they're top of the table. It's not the fans job to decide on ETH's replacement. The fans chose ETH and look how that turned out.
Agree but the club has to have a coherent plan along with the manager to get the right players for the long term to achieve the goal, which has not been happening. Nearly 50% of the signings by the way have been loans or free agents, and more than that stop gaps
The second point of transfers is that you are not going to get them all right, we need to spend a lot of money in order to get to where we want and we have to also spend it better than we have been, the majority of that issue is on the club not the manager (although the manager takes some blame)
I'm not wedded to ETH, he can be sacked that is fine, the issue I have is that it is very clear to me a new manager is not going to fix the problem if the structure above is not fixed, same thing we have said when sacking previous managers. Yet here we are again.
Also no I am not talking about Glazers, I am talking about our Techncial and Director of Football positions Murtough and Darren Fletcher
Weren't there a few posters who said that Murtough and Arnold deserved a chance when people questioned their credentials?
Barca aren't a great comparison though, as they have a well established style from top to bottom since the Cruyff days, which we lack, so they can afford to bring in (and remove if necessary) coaches with less experience but who understood the style.
On top of that they're in a very advantageous position, in a league set up to ensure they have a financial advantage over the rest of the teams, which lowers the risk of those kind of appointments.
Those 2nd places under Ole and Jose were deserved because the accompanying Cup runs vindicate that these were indeed good but flawed teams. Its the failure in addressing of those flaws in the summer that undid whatever had been previously achieved. What we cannot and shouldn't do is talk down those achievements when it was simply a failure to properly build on them that pegged us back.
You could point out to any red flags but the facts remain the same: both teams created the foundations of subsequent teams that got elevated simply by doing what should have been done the previous summer under the old management. Ole's teams were formed from the ashes of Jose's team and Ten Hag had players from Ole's team bailing him out last season and this.
Our failure which has been consistent over the last ten years has been our inability to build on a good season. Firstly it was the Glazers withholding funds after CL qualification then after 2020 it was the managers losing their way after a reasonable success the season before.
Last season we didn't play well at all after the League Cup final and given the fixture list people could argue that it was now more about getting through the season than managing performances. I think the root of our challenges this season lies in the fatigue that came as a result of those three cup runs plus the mid season WC where some of our players went deep in the competition.
Every team has red flags and that's why almost all teams utilise the transfer window to address them. It's not really prophetic to say 'United could do with a proper striker' last season, everyone could see that. How it was addressed is why we are struggling.
Two things about posters still backing ETH:
1) Posters say even though the club has spent 400m for ETH's signings, it wasn't all the players that he wanted. But isn't that part and parcel of the transfer game? Clubs don't always get ANY player they want (even Real Madrid). And even so, the players that we've signed are approved by ETH. With that being said, isn't part of being a good manager is to work with what you've got? Why did we spend a feck ton of money and somehow look worse than last season?
2) Another thing being parroted around is the same tired question, "If we sack ETH, which candidate can replace him? There's no one else." The only logical answer to that question is how the feck should I know who to replace ETH with.
It's on the club and the board to decide on this. To say that there is no available candidate on this planet sounds extremely ignorant. Personally I never heard of Ange. Spurs snapped him up and now they're top of the table. It's not the fans job to decide on ETH's replacement. The fans chose ETH and look how that turned out.
The amount of leniency given to the manager and the amount of excuses invented (some of which might be valid of course) is nothing short of astonishing. Yes, the ownership is the root cause of our problems. Yes, he should be given some slack due to injuries and we are likely to somewhat improve.
But:
1. Forget results, were we showing at least some progress on the pitch no one would be calling for his head. But the football hs been consistently awful except for a couple of months last season. Anyone suggesting otherwise is delusional.
2. His tactics and transfers do not make sense more often then not.
3. Has any of the players consistently improved under him? Not really
4. Ok, is he at least building for the future? Again, not really.significant part of his signings are in-prime or past-it players. And the younger ones (Malacia, Antony)are probably not good enough. Signing Højlund and giving Mainoo and Garnacho minutes is not enough - all of our previous failed managers did at least as much.
I have no idea how it is supposed to suddenly magically click. There is just no evidence for that.
And regarding the pro-EtH arguments I see also the following inconsistencies:
1. He gets full credit for last season good results (so great form of Rashford and Casemiro etc is due to him), but now it is all players‘ fault. You cannot have it both ways.
2. When transfers are good he gets full credit. When it turns south - it is all Murtough/Arnold/Glazers fault.
3. The new excuse is that it is one thing to outperform in a smaller club with less expectations (Brington, Spurs), and United is completely different. Ok, fair enough - but that invalidates EtH‘s biggest achievement. the whole case for him being „good, up and coming etc“ manager rests on his CL run with Ajax - but Ajax is small club in CL context with no expectation of reaching semifinals. So if Ange or De Zerbi are too much of a risk/not qualified enough - he is even more so (plus he does not have anything close to this famous CL overachievement, neither at Utrecht, not in Bayern II nor in other Ajax seasons. And De Bouer has 4 Eredivisie titles with Ajax)
In general, it looks increasingly likely that his achievements at Ajax were to a significant extent due to good structure resulting in a talented crop of players assembled. His coaching of course contributed and I am not saying that he is a bad manager but honestly I cannot see him better than a very mediocre manager at PL level (and that is being kind) based on what I have seen.
I think many (including myself) just bought into the story of him being a managerial wonderkid which was just not true. I mean Ole also won titles in Norway and had an unprecedented for a Norwegian club run in Europe but we all know he was far from good enough.
ETH can prove me wrong of course if he goes to say Dortmund and repeats their success of Klopp era but I think the best offer he would get if sacked would be to return to Ajax. And I am not sure he performs as well given that they have a much inferior squad now.
Yeah i think some will start questioning only when the GK will start as a striker.
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Course it might have made a difference. That's how football works.
If Bruno is in and around their pen area instead of chasing back into the fullback position, it absolutely could have made a difference.
Same goes for Reguilon over Lindelof. Otherwise why bother bringing Reguilon in?
Or playing the entire second half without a proper CM on the pitch.
This is the basics of football that win/lose you a game.
Course it might have made a difference. That's how football works.
If Bruno is in and around their pen area instead of chasing back into the fullback position, it absolutely could have made a difference.
Same goes for Reguilon over Lindelof. Otherwise why bother bringing Reguilon in?
Or playing the entire second half without a proper CM on the pitch.
This is the basics of football that win/lose you a game.
Basics also include having some sort of a solid midfield. The guy doesn't believe in having a midfield. Plays no.10s there or incompetent fecks like McTominay.
Yeah I think we can agree on many things. This shit is too complicated for me to further discuss it tbh.
Anyway regarding Mount if my memory serves me right ETH did play him deeper as a ball carrier at the beginning. But imo he didn't do well enough so ETH moved him up top. One thing I've noticed with ETH is he tend to move the worst ones on the ball there. Like Fred, WW, McT, Sabitzer, VDB previously.
I don't think you're getting this; I'm talking about fan reactions on here. I also think you're giving Jose and Ole way too much credit for what it's worth.
The point is; posters are so quick to point out that they're prophets who pointed out red flags. When the truth is that it comes down to biases and favouritism for certain managers.
Totally agree. McTominay is basically a No. 9 now and ETH knows this. It's why he's been playing him further up the field.
So why he then drops him back into a No.6 sort of position against the best ball playing team in the league nobody knows.
Probably just that slight hope he might get us a goal.
I'll just take it as an apology rather than getting into the whole Ole myth about me yet again.
I do remember the buzzwords at the time though, "coaching", "patterns of play", "modern manager", "counter attacking", "posession". All things I was assured would be far better under a new manager. I said we'll just be the same with the same players, as I did when Mourinho went.
I've always focused on the players rather than buying into the hype of any manager, maintaining that our squad hasn't been good enough for years. Ole was rightly sacked after messing up recruitment when he had the chance to kick on, Ten Hag is looking like following the same path.
Anyone who gives clean slates to these fecks needs to be questioned. Lindelof, Maguire, Fred, McTominay and AwB needed to go this summer. Only 1 left. You could add more but we had no funds. And we wasted a chunk on Mount.
You could say its harsh on AwB but he doesn't suit the way we wanted to play(atleast thats what I believed) and we could have fetched good money from his sale.
There's no myth my man. It's double standards.
If ETH fails it's on him, just like with Ole, just like with Jose etc. The only difference is that you picked your horse: Ole. Some picked ETH and some picked Jose. It's the lack of objectivity that gets me tbh.
I agree on one thing though; no matter who comes in right now with these players and this structure; I don't see much changing. I'm not even fussed if ETH stays on even if we contine to get worse, because we're just not a serious club. Our structures are a mess, but our managerial appointments have been consistently awful. Though, I did see the rationale behind appointing both Jose and ETH. The rest? Nah, not for me.
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There was definitely an element last season of fans seeing what they wanted to see.
Things like our attacking play being so much better etc. Just wasn't happening.
They won't have much choice were stuck with what we've got now due to lack of funds. Bigger problem are the likes of Casemiro, Varane and Sancho on huge contracts for the next few years.
Funnily enough Fred was man of match in many of Ten Hag's best games.
There's been these elements with every single post-Fergie manager....
Maybe, just maybe, we keep appointing shite managers and giving them far too much rope.
Knives are definitely out now, the media, ex players, ex managers, fans all beginning to question whether ETH can turn this around.
Massive game against Newcastle, we simply have to win. Lose and its game over for Ten hag as I can't then see this team getting anything away at Fulham.
Massive game against Newcastle, we simply have to win. Lose and its game over for Ten hag as I can't then see this team getting anything away at Fulham.
I think this one will rumble on, even if we continue to get worse. With Ole and Jose it was easier just to sack them as we didn't have a potential investor ready to buy into the club.
Me personally not having heard of Ange is just an example. My point is that our clubs extensive scouting network can surely identify more candidates than the average fan. Why does the responsibility fall on caftards to identify the replacement candidate?
The attacking play was clear but people didn't want to see it, Rashford was covering the flaws with a purple patch no one saw coming.
Defensively we were decent although we did sit deep a lot of the time.
It's hard to see what the answer is with this squad, there so few goals in it. Antony leaves a big hole because he neither creates or scores. We need more attacking output from full backs (when we get them back).
I’m slightly leaning towards sacking ETH too but yeah agreed that Murtough and Fletch have to go as well.
The whole structure needs to change and has done for a long time now. Otherwise we're going to be stuck in this cycle.
I’m saying the issue is obviously deeper than just Erik. We’ve been badly run for a decade as you have said.
I think we needed a star attacker
Someone that wouldn’t just be world class himself but the lifted the people around him as well. Harry Kane is the one we should have gone for.
The Onana, Mount and Hojlund money should have been used for that. He would have had a bigger impact than all three combined.
Deemed Kane unaffordable then wasted 110 on a keeper that can’t save and a midfielder who doesn’t fit in. Hojlund is decent tbf but it’ll take years before he’s ready.
We can appoint the best manager in the world but until our recruitment isn’t sorted we’ll remain mid table dross
Someone that wouldn’t just be world class himself but the lifted the people around him as well. Harry Kane is the one we should have gone for.
The Onana, Mount and Hojlund money should have been used for that. He would have had a bigger impact than all three combined.
Deemed Kane unaffordable then wasted 110 on a keeper that can’t save and a midfielder who doesn’t fit in. Hojlund is decent tbf but it’ll take years before he’s ready.
We can appoint the best manager in the world but until our recruitment isn’t sorted we’ll remain mid table dross
Yes absolutely!
The issues are far deeper, for sure. The mind boggles that we have a poor a structure as we do.
But, it's also hard to see what it is that ETH is trying to do. We look a disjointed mess on the pitch at the moment.
Completely disagree on Kane but I keep seeing it repeated. Spurs themselves are the prime example that it isn't about one player. They've now put together a squad at a decent age that look ready for the demands of PL football (fast and physical) whereas as we've got the opposite, ageing, slow and weak.
Hojlund was the right idea, the rest of the money should have been spent on some shrewder signings. Maybe do some scouting. Van de Ven looks a bargain (a Dutch player! )
Another issue is that this squad needs to be ripped up and started from scratch, basically.
Would many be willing to give a manager time to start from scratch and potentially have a-few years out of top four, like Arteta with Arsenal? I'm not sure many of you would as it seems getting top four is the oracle. People obsessed over Jose and Ole's second placed finishes even though plenty warned that we didn't look like a team on the up.
With ETH I was happy for a few seasons outside top four and to see him dismantle the squad and have us playing like he did with Ajax. Unfortunately, we have reverted to type and our football is back to being ugly and directionless. I honestly have no idea where this club is going
Would many be willing to give a manager time to start from scratch and potentially have a-few years out of top four, like Arteta with Arsenal? I'm not sure many of you would as it seems getting top four is the oracle. People obsessed over Jose and Ole's second placed finishes even though plenty warned that we didn't look like a team on the up.
With ETH I was happy for a few seasons outside top four and to see him dismantle the squad and have us playing like he did with Ajax. Unfortunately, we have reverted to type and our football is back to being ugly and directionless. I honestly have no idea where this club is going
We've lost 5 out of 10 in the league, 7 lost, 7 won in total so far this season. Spent £400m and says his players can't play the way he wants them to like at Ajax, and we have no style of play and no fight.
What he's receiving is called criticism, and it's completely justified, seeing as he largely gets a free ride due to the owners/stadium/Murtough/lack of DOF etc. Just because people are finally asking what he's doing doesn't mean the 'knives are out'.
OK calm down.
They do? Didn't they reach two finals and finish 3rd last season? Must be a pretty big collective regression if they all need replacing after already spending £400m on improving the squad.
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