Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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Not a great day for
TMDaines said:
This is a bit of an issue. We keep starting games on top, pinning the opposition back, yet they adjust and we don’t. This then gets misdiagnosed as players not working hard enough, when it often isn’t the case. We lack the on-field or off-field leadership to shift our formation or tactics to combat the opposition’s tactical tweaks.

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Football analysis is now fully obsessed with the high press. It's the go to explanation.

These footballers are generally working harder off the ball than footballers ever have. Probably.

Nor did Brighton particularly press us. We had plenty of time on the ball.

Pressing isn't the reason we lost. It's not the reason we haven't played good football since Feb.

Passing is. Quality of pass. Choice of pass. That and secondly a lack of athleticism.
 
lsd said:
They did so it's actually pointless moaning about that now.

We need a director of football and have done so for years but Ten Hag didn't want one.
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My point was that you absolutely can blame the Glazers for the lack of direction at the top
 
TMDaines said:
This is a bit of an issue. We keep starting games on top, pinning the opposition back, yet they adjust and we don’t. This then gets misdiagnosed as players not working hard enough, when it often isn’t the case. We lack the on-field or off-field leadership to shift our formation or tactics to combat the opposition’s tactical tweaks.

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This particular issue regarding our press is a huuuuuuge problem. Going on since last year. How come Arsenal/ city/ Liverpool etc don't have the same problem with their pressing?

Only reason I can see is Rashford doesn't press much which makes it easy to beat our press.

This and the legs in midfield are huge huge huge problems. How he solves these will basically make or break his tenure.
 
The club has been on what feels like a downward trajectory ever since winning the Carabao Cup. I don't know what it is, maybe it's the constant negativity off the pitch and the ownership uncertainty. It's intensified more with these 4 games and the Sancho/Antony/Greenwood/Maguire situations. Either way, something has to give. And usually the first thing to give is the manager! People already (like the OP) bringing the question up so I can see why people would debate it. Not arguing against that.

However, I will personally back ETH right till the end. Do I question some of his decisions off the pitch in terms of transfers? Yes. Do I question some of his in-game decisions at times? Yes. Does the away record need to improve? Yes. Do I think he's perfect? Nope. But I think he is the best man for this job. Managing Manchester United is a huge task and most aren't capable of it. You have to consider the context of the club. He's having to deal with being in a circus environment, not saying he's being set up for failure but it definitely does not help him.

From what I have seen of ETH based on his first season, for me he warrants at least another season and that includes if we do not make the top 4. Something feels different about him compared to the other managers we've had and I think the club see it too. Last year was good in that we made the top 4, played 2 cup finals and won one, had big results against big PL teams at home (including Barcelona), has shown he can be ruthless most of the time with players and the team was likeable, looking ready to kick on with some signings. ETH has got enough in the bank for me from the first season and unless it's a Chelsea/Potter style collapse, he should be allowed to see out this season.

For how dysfunctional the club can be, I actually think they too see it this way and will not rush to sack him if he doesn't make the top 4 like previous managers (*barring a major collapse). We've been in this limbo state post-fergie where we have a decent season then a bad one, until eventually the manager gets sacked and another rebuild starts. We have chopped and changed too much with managers and gone through too many rebuilds to never see out most of them. It's time we see out this one. I will be honest, I have always maintained I don't envision us winning a major trophy (PL/CL) anytime soon given the ownership, but I think we have the best chance with this manager under this regime.

We'll probably have more results like today and it's going to be a see-saw season with some good moments. I know it looks really negative right now especially when you consider the trajectory so far of this season but sometimes it can take one signing or one good result for things to change. Look at last year, the season kicked off after the Liverpool result at home. When we've had our backs against the wall under ETH, we've usually come out of it. And yes something does feel different this time round with all the negative situations unfolding around the club, but you have to hope for things to improve and I am confident/hope they will under ETH.
 
spiriticon said:
I thought the booing today was defo a turning point today too. I was a little shocked tbh. Has Old Trafford ever done that before to our manager?

EtH is probably one more big hiding from losing the crowd. He should be looking to the City and Liverpool away games in a bit of fear. Another 4 or 5 nil whipping and it could be curtains.
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He got applauded off at FT
 
pascell said:
He got applauded off at FT
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Every manager gets applauded off at FT, that's not unusual. Its the fact that he got booed at OT even once which is unusual. That's a very rare thing to happen.

I'm not even sure if Jose got booed once.
 
noodlehair said:
I'm not an expert on managing/motivating footballers, but I would hazard a guess that picking fights with one of them in public, at the same time as you're losing games where you make such dumb decisions your own fans boo you in astonishment, is probably quite high on the "don't do this" list.

I've got no trust in him at this point which is some going after 5 games, but the Martial sub today is where he completely lost me. If he didn't expect that reaction from the crowd he's a complete idiot and if he did expect it why on earth did he make that change? Aside from it being incredibly stupid tactically, how is it helpful for either player to be subbed on/off to the entire stadium booing?

DO NOT fecking do shite like this to your players when you're already risking a revolt by picking fights with one of them. Preferably just do not do it regardless.

I don't really know where he goes with things now as he's backed himself into so many corners it's not easy to see a route out. He's got to win back the trust of the players, while engaged in a childish public spat with one of them that he started, while working out how to get around his main priority signing making the team imbalanced and much worse due being used out of position, while repeatedly making subs in games that do harm to his players and team.
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Agree Noodle,.great post
 
Big Ben Foster said:
My point was that you absolutely can blame the Glazers for the lack of direction at the top
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Yes ok not it's pointless now at this point.

They did what they always do throw money at the new manager let him buy who he wants and it ends up a mess.

The only way to fix it is to stop doing that and get a director of football who will be responsible for the transfers and the football we want to implement.

Stop hiring managers that don't want that and who want to be only one making those decisions
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Something looked really really off today, from his presence or lack of on the touchline, the absolute basics missing from supposedly world class players to the fans booing his substitution choices.

I wonder how influential the Sancho scenario is, but something seems really really off and I don't like where it's going.
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The players are used to not having Sancho around. Doubt it had much effect except for maybe his pal Rashford. Whatever the case, I hope ETH digs his heals in on Sancho and does the same to anyone else who throws a fit. Bunch a over paid world class nothings we have in this squad.
 
Keep him, obviously.

Onana, Martinez, Mount, Antony and Højbjerg (I believe) are Ten Hag's first choice options for the team. All other signings imo are temporary solutions in 'the process'. Add to that an RB position that has no clear and obvious first choice. At CB, ETH obviously rates Varane over Lindeløf and Maguire. But, he's injured all the time so he has to be replaced soon. At LB Shaw is fine, but that position also has to be improved by Ten Hag. Rashford and Bruno are the only players that would be in contention for a place in Liverpool or Citys first team. We started the season with three right wingers, now we have none. In attack we have to rely on a 20 year old striker and a substitute made of glass.

All in all we have many decent players, but only a few of them were actually picked by the manager.
 
Woziak said:
Some say change ETH but for whom ?

We’ll answer is simple tell him, that he needs to have the team in the top 6-7 by End of year or Roberto De Zerbie is the obvious choice and not just because of today however he’s currently won 75% of the games he’s played against ETH and the 4th was a luck draw for us.
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A change of coach is pointless. What will a new coach do with a club with such a poor culture. The players and fans are tired of this circus which just excaberates the problem.
 
Refusing to make obvious starting XI selections and failing to make obvious changes in-game while the team struggles for form will always be where I draw the line with any manager. Selecting Pellistri at RW was such a simple one, but he chose to mess up everything instead, and waited until it was too late to try and correct it.

Just hope baffling selections from him does not become a recurring theme. Was such a hallmark of Ole's time and the last months of Mourinho. Difficult to get behind a manager making inexplicable selections like someone who has never been involved in a football game.
 
Just a simple question guys, I have seen also another poster here as pointed out.

How ETH has played 3 times with Brighton yet its the all home games have had the same same trajectory?

Is ETH tactically inferior or something else? We all knew how Brighton would play and how the game would pan out (with them playing from the back and having possession) how comes it looked a shock to players on the pitch?

Does ETH really learn? We have the same same problems we've had since he came. Being cut through easily. Being overrun. And it seems nothing is being done to address it.

Very weird. I think he still thinks he is in Holland where he can autopilot to results or trophies..
 
Andycoleno9 said:
I was always defending English setup inside clubs where managers (some more, some less) are building squads. More and more i am inclined to setup which is around Europe where manager is the coach. Dof is building the squad (not someone like Murtough of course :lol: ) and coach is working with that.
This extreme what we did with ETH is completely wrong approach.
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In reality, what difference does it make? All that matters is getting the right players, and getting the best out of them. Do players suddenly become good/better signings because a DoF wanted them and not a manager? DoF, scouts, manager - makes no difference at all. Your job title doesn’t guarantee you of competence, and in reality, the manager/coach is the one that needs to work with them to make a squad, so I imagine all of the aforementioned parties will have a say in any signing anyway.

Teams with DoFs make terrible signings all the time. Ten Hag has no excuses for not doing a better job. He’s just a charlatan.
 
pocco said:
I've made my thoughts known already, but I think this is the beginning of the end for him. We won't sack him yet because we insist on waiting till the team and the fans are in the absolute gutter before we do that.

But right now I am fully convinced he's not a top level manager, tactician or man manager. He has faced Brighton numerous times and has yet to lay a glove on them tactically. Today we set up to play into their hands completely. Narrow press where we only commit a few players, easy avenue out, full backs all over the place. This is something a good tactician doesn't let happen. And his signings are all dubious for me. Basically he's just not it.

People are saying 'well we've tried so many managers, what's going to change?' Well today you had it slapping you in the face. De Zerbi changed their football from day one into what he wanted, and it is effective. They had a shoestring team out today and it was there for anybody with eyes to see. The perfect example of a manager upholding his end of the bargain and drilling, coaching, setting up a team to be effective. Better than the sum of the parts.

So my overall opinion is simply that we've just hired wrong continously. We've not managed to find somebody to click with the players that can put out 11 players minimum that are well coached in an effective/ attractive style of play.

And I hate to say it but many of our fans were sold a dud with ETH. They didn't do their homework. He is not what you thought he was and, actually, his football is fecking dire to watch. He's nowhere near Klopp and Pep, probably nowhere near managers a level below them or even more. He's made a name for himself in a one team league where the lower placed teams are dreadful.

If it were me I'd try somebody else and try to revive this team. Even if we have to keep churning managers then so be it. The absolute worst thing to do is to stick by something that's failing. I saw it coming with Ole and faced the same arguments by his acolytes. There's just no chance we'll ever hang with the top clubs with ETH.
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Bingo, nailed it.
 
mav_9me said:
Only reason I can see is Rashford doesn't press much which makes it easy to beat our press
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This is exactly what I meant by misdiagnosis. It’s not on any individual. Pressing isn’t about running around like a crazy man, but being well drilled. Working hard in isolation means nothing. Rooney used to run around rabid in his early years, Bruno does at times now, and it is all for nowt. You just leave spaces for the opposition by running off alone. Individual players could have worked harder and it would have made no difference.

We lined up and were well drilled for the initial task we expected to face, same as against Spurs. All of Rashford, Højlund and the midfield did their jobs. Brighton were struggling to get out of their half. But once Brighton made a slight tactical switch, we didn’t change to combat that. That to me feel likes a managerial issue, rather than something I’d expect players to change themselves on the fly. The top coaches now regularly get their teams to adjust in-game and get tactical superiority.
 
kouroux said:
You should care. It showed us he is prone to making the most illogical tactical changes.
Small stuff that says a lot about the man.
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I mean I'm pretty sure he wasn't playing in defence, we had three at the back and Bruno was one of the four ahead to chase a two goal deficit. Obviously we got mauled on the break and Bruno was one of those getting back to fill in. If we'd got a second goal back, who knows what could happen. Didn't work, but it's not really something that "says a lot about the man."
 
RedCoffee said:
A change of coach is pointless. What will a new coach do with a club with such a poor culture. The players and fans are tired of this circus which just excaberates the problem.
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Not defending our owners but I have a hard time believing our club and structure are that bad. Not enough to win the league obviously, but there's no way our league position reflects the club and our resources.

I get why people love ETH, he's well spoken and our first modern manager since...ever. But that says more about our poor appointments since saf retired than anything.
 
There's such a negative atmosphere pervading the club (ownership, off-field issues, media narrative, EtH tactical inflexibility, in-game player execution) that it's hard to judge what is taking effect on the pitch. In desperate need of a clear out from top to bottom.
 
Mcking said:
Refusing to make obvious starting XI selections and failing to make obvious changes in-game while the team struggles for form will always be where I draw the line with any manager. Selecting Pellistri at RW was such a simple one, but he chose to mess up everything instead, and waited until it was too late to try and correct it.

Just hope baffling selections from him does not become a recurring theme. Was such a hallmark of Ole's time and the last months of Mourinho. Difficult to get behind a manager making inexplicable selections like someone who has never been involved in a football game.
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Unfortunately we don't get to see every single minute of every training session. I've questioned the lack of Pellistri-time as well, but an intelligent manager like Eth probably has his reasons for leaving him out of the starting XI.
 
Also, if you look at the lineups from the past three defeats to Brighton, you can't blame ETH for trying something different - formation wise.
 
kouroux said:
All those who are massive fans of ETH, how do you explain playing Bruno at the back ?
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How the feck those people exist, why? What was achieved for him to already have followers and fans. So fecking weird
 
Ubik said:
I mean I'm pretty sure he wasn't playing in defence, we had three at the back and Bruno was one of the four ahead to chase a two goal deficit. Obviously we got mauled on the break and Bruno was one of those getting back to fill in. If we'd got a second goal back, who knows what could happen. Didn't work, but it's not really something that "says a lot about the man."
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I hope you're right. Personally, I have lost all faith in him
 
royboy16 said:
Yeap that looks to be the crux of it,well said.
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We're pretty much fecked until someone else buys the club and restructures everything. It's like someone asking you and me to build a boat - you can be Head Boat Builder and I'll be your deputy. Neither of us know how to build a boat, so when you give me instructions I have no way of knowing they're wrong. And when you see me trying to hammer nails in with my bald head you have no way of knowing if I'm doing it wrong. We could give that boat to the Pep Guardiola of the sailing world and he would still sink, but since we don't know who that person is we'd probably give the boat to the captain of the Costa Concordia anyway. That's the club's senior management, every single member of it.

People thinking that the next manager will be a success are fooling themselves. We're fecked.
 
I've said that a few times in here but his "open letter to the fans" after winning the famous league cup might've not been the right move. Coincided weirdly with us playing shit from then on.

Anyway, funnily enough he should be grateful Arteta is doing well, it may buy him some extra time.

Worrying times ahead though, he's on thin ice.
 
Melville Red said:
I’m concerned, after last season I was really hoping for a great start, nothing could be further from that.
However we should stick with Erik for this and next season at least, that will give him another 3 transfer windows.
Then if by the winter of 2026 we are still fecking about like this he will have to go, but hopefully by then he will have sorted things out and we will be up there at the top, if not…Just remeber how long it took Fergie to sought it out.
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Winter 2026 :eek: wtf ? You're ready to wait that long ?
 
I'm still behind him but I really hoped to see a more established pattern of play by now. We rely almost entirely on rashford to score goals and defensively the ease with which we're played through is shocking.

I like him as a manager and he's had some real piles of shit to deal which he's handled well but as a coach I'm not sure anymore
Which is odd as at the start of his tenure I'd have expected these things to be the other way round
 
Melville Red said:
I’m concerned, after last season I was really hoping for a great start, nothing could be further from that.
However we should stick with Erik for this and next season at least, that will give him another 3 transfer windows.
Then if by the winter of 2026 we are still fecking about like this he will have to go, but hopefully by then he will have sorted things out and we will be up there at the top, if not…Just remeber how long it took Fergie to sought it out.
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:lol: Pep will be long gone by 2026
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
We don't know that. The players recruited by ETH do not seem very suited to ETH tactics, that is the reality we have to deal with. I am pretty sure that de Zerbi would have us playing better football after 17 months than what we are served up by ETH.
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There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that would point to that, and suggesting it is really quite shallow.

De Zerbi took over a team with a clear identity, already playing similar football to his, and has built on that. If he'd joined us, you're suggesting he'd have handled Ronaldo's coup attempt, had the various egos (who were very close to mutinying on ETH early on) under control, identified better targets (without any structure above him), handled the extreme pressure, and had a squad built for low block counter attacking playing Brighton style football? This is a manager who got fired after 2 months with Palermo, and got Benevento relegated. He's far from infallible, he's just in a position with relatively low risk that allows him to excel, as it did Potter.

The idea that he's would have done a better job is nonsense.
 
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I'd stay with him. At the very least I would go with him until a few of his signings have had a chance to make an impact. If we play a poor season then he does come under massive pressure because we have invested heavily and given him a lot of latitude. It might be that he has to go if performances don't substantially improve in that situation.

I don't think it's going to make a big difference though. We can have a revolving door of managers but I have serious doubts about who is going to make the desired impact under the current ownership situation. It will be a case of bringing in someone like de Zerbi, who is set up to fail from the start and then scratching our heads about why nothing works. There's a common denominator.
 
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