Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24

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DJ_21 said:
It’s not about copying their structure though… we could get our own structure, bring our own people in. I was using them as an example of the work they’ve done. Our structure is a shambles as we all know… since Fergie left we’ve gone through like 6 managers each with different style of plays… that right there is already the sign of terrible thinking. That means each time them managers have signed players they’ve had to get sold when they don’t fit in the new managers plans. Where as Brighton have stuck with the same philosophy that potter started at Brighton and then they went and found an under dog of a manager who plays a similar style football… so the squad from the previous season will all be very good at playing it, with a few additions he’s took them to a new level.
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Then we are in agreement. I like what Brighton is doing, my point though is comparing that to United and trying to 'mimic' Brighton. We do need a change structurally and I think ETH has promoted that, especially in terms of basing the academy and academy targets on how we want to play in the first team, the thing is about structural changes is it's not something you see right away but over a longer period of time. You can't just change everything today and expect the dividends tomorrow.

Brighton for what they're doing is incredible, we as United have a different level of expectations and standards, my point was that we can't just copy a Brighton or a Dortmund as we aren't Brighton or Dortmund. We were after Bellingham and Haaland for example but Bellingham wanted guaranteed playing time and Haaland wanted a minimum fee release clause and we aren't willing to give that nor should we. Dortmund/Brighton are happy being a stepping stone club to the big leagues, we (despite our lack of success recently) are in the big leagues.

frostbite said:
You are right. Another good example is Leicester.

There are many small teams and a few of them "get it right" for a few years, then collapse. It could be skill, or it could also be statistics, there are many small teams that try different approaches, a few get lucky, but sooner or later their luck is over. To be consistently at the top is something very different. And it is much harder.
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Exactly. Brighton could well end up relegated in the next 3-5 years just like Leicester. Everyone loved the way Leicester was run when they sold Mahrez/Drinkwater/Maguire/Kante for a combined 200 mill and signed some young players with potential. Unfortunately the young players didn't end up as good as their old guard and now they're in the championship. It happens and it will happen with Brighton, not everyone has a success rate of a near 100%. When Brighton spend 50-100 mill on players that don't quite fulfil their potential they will drop off it's only natural and it will happen.
 
Flamingo Purple said:
I mean the reset has to start with/include the manager but doesn’t end with him. I think that Murtough and Arnold should go, and their responsibility for the mess is equal to that of Ten Hag. But to initiate a reset like this, the manager, who is the most hands-on person at the club and who has allowed an increasingly divisive dressing room to boycott our chances this season before it's even begun, have to go as well. It goes without saying that the Glazers are a cancer to the club, and we would be glad to be rid of them also.
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Outside of Sancho there have been absolutely no indications that the dressing room is the slightest bit divided. Based on media reports (I think) it seems like the players were largely okay even with Greenwood returning as well. This is creating hysteria out of nothing. And Sancho is a player who should have been canned before this season started so as far as I'm concerned everyone else is pulling in the same direction.
 
the_cliff said:
Then we are in agreement. I like what Brighton is doing, my point though is comparing that to United and trying to 'mimic' Brighton. We do need a change structurally and I think ETH has promoted that, especially in terms of basing the academy and academy targets on how we want to play in the first team, the thing is about structural changes is it's not something you see right away but over a longer period of time. You can't just change everything today and expect the dividends tomorrow.

Brighton for what they're doing is incredible, we as United have a different level of expectations and standards, my point was that we can't just copy a Brighton or a Dortmund as we aren't Brighton or Dortmund. We were after Bellingham and Haaland for example but Bellingham wanted guaranteed playing time and Haaland wanted a minimum fee release clause and we aren't willing to give that nor should we. Dortmund/Brighton are happy being a stepping stone club to the big leagues, we (despite our lack of success recently) are in the big leagues.
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100%, I get what you’re saying. We need to aim a lot higher as we’re a bigger club… I reckon if we get bought out then we’ll see massive changes within the structuring of the club. If it’s Qatar or Saudi that buy us then they’ll be aiming for the very top… but that could be bad news for ETH as they won’t accept poor results and playing style.
 
Raven said:
In answer to all of the replies I've received, it now looks like he's been in favour of keeping Greenwood around, standing by Antony who's been accused by 3 different women and he was apparently also supportive of bringing Overmars back to Ajax while he was there. It gets to a stage where I'm thinking he's either an idiot (unlikely) or he really couldn't give a shit whether his players and colleagues are monsters.
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The very best of teachers or coaches have been the ones to help reform the otherwise undesirable characters of society. So, I won’t hold it against a coach for looking beyond the flaws of an individual to the person he can shape them into.
Without people sticking their neck out for people in the past, society wouldn’t have got to see some the reformed people of society.
 
ETH is going to do a Moyes and age about 10 years over the course of 5-6 months
 
KikiDaKats said:
The very best of teachers or coaches have been the ones to help reform the otherwise undesirable characters of society. So, I won’t hold it against a coach for looking beyond the flaws of an individual to the person he can shape them into.
Without people sticking their neck out for people in the past, society wouldn’t have got to see some the reformed people of society.
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O Captain my Captain!
Do you think Ten Hag ends his pre-game speech by saying « Seize the day boys. Make your lives extraordinary »?
All jokes aside, great post. I’d like to think maybe this is Ten Hag’s personality. But then again, knowing how cynical the football industry can be…
 
Zed is not dead said:
O Captain my Captain!
Do you think Ten Hag ends his pre-game speech by saying « Seize the day boys. Make your lives extraordinary »?
All jokes aside, great post. I’d like to think maybe this is Ten Hag’s personality. But then again, knowing how cynical the football industry can be…
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That cracked me up that.
 
DJ_21 said:
It’s not about copying their structure though… we could get our own structure, bring our own people in. I was using them as an example of the work they’ve done. Our structure is a shambles as we all know… since Fergie left we’ve gone through like 6 managers each with different style of plays… that right there is already the sign of terrible thinking. That means each time them managers have signed players they’ve had to get sold when they don’t fit in the new managers plans. Where as Brighton have stuck with the same philosophy that potter started at Brighton and then they went and found an under dog of a manager who plays a similar style football… so the squad from the previous season will all be very good at playing it, with a few additions he’s took them to a new level.
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Brighton have done an amazing job, but I think we have to acknowledge the step from bring a 'Brighton' in 6th, to top of the league is enormous.

I'm not trying to criticise Brighton, because they're overachieving within the constraints that they should have as a club. But it's easier to build up from being that yo-yo club to being that Top 10 team that pushes for Europe every now and then.

The pressure of trying to climb to the top, battling for that 1% of top talent, the pressure every week, the demands of going deep in all cups, every signing needing to be perfect and instantly hit the ground running, you just can't compare it.

We can't copy the Brighton model because we're not Brighton and we never will be. People look to these teams and complain and say 'why can't we play like that?' or 'why can't we be like that?'. What would they say if we got thumped 4-1 at home to West Ham? People would be calling for ten Hag's head.
 
The Hilton said:
So we may be arguing cross purposes here, as I actually agree with your point in terms of improvements on last season, but I think we can both agree that his first season was a sizeable improvement on what came before, right? Yes we looked poor at the end, mostly due to being exhausted, as we looked very good for the middle third of the season.

He, and the team, will need time to adjust to their new teammates, and the higher pressing approach he wants us to adopt this season, but he's put several of the blocks in place (being able to play out from the back), and to me unquestionably deserves more time to continue that upward trajectory.
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Yes - I agree. And last season, you could see the players were exhausted. He was hurt by a lack of depth which in my opinion, is still an issue. But as a new season starts you expect the team to look fit and firing. My opinion is we still lack the intensity that other teams have - it's often far too slow, with and without the ball, just like it has been under other managers.

The question, ultimately, is whether he is good enough to take us to the next level. Last season, and the promise shown is irrelevant now if there's a lack of progress on the pitch. My opinion is that unless there is a clear upward trajectory, he won't be getting another £150 million next summer.
 
eire-red said:
we're not Brighton and we never will be. People look to these teams and complain and say 'why can't we play like that?' or 'why can't we be like that?'. What would they say if we got thumped 4-1 at home to West Ham? People would be calling for ten Hag's head.
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3-1 Aston Villa
2-0 Newcastle
3-0 Sevilla

Not like we were immune to a thumping last season, and I didn't even include the big teams.
 
eire-red said:
The pressure of trying to climb to the top, battling for that 1% of top talent, the pressure every week, the demands of going deep in all cups, every signing needing to be perfect and instantly hit the ground running, you just can't compare it.
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There is no top club that gets every signing right, far from it. But they usually ruthlessly sideline their flops and quickly get rid of them.

They don't try to "protect their players value", they just cut their losses. Of course it doesn't always work that well (just look at Real and how long it took them to get rid of Hatard and Bale), but at least no one follows the Illusion that a flop might still become a success. That's a very United way to think.
 
mu4c_20le said:
3-1 Aston Villa
2-0 Newcastle
3-0 Sevilla

Not like we were immune to a thumping last season, and I didn't even include the big teams.
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That’s one of the issues we have aswell. When we lose it’s usually ugly. ETH is quite stubborn in the fact he only as 1 way of playing which means when we’re chasing a goal we’re far to open and then get destroyed.
 
DJ_21 said:
That’s one of the issues we have aswell. When we lose it’s usually ugly. ETH is quite stubborn in the fact he only as 1 way of playing which means when we’re chasing a goal we’re far to open and then get destroyed.
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Yeah we probably need to see a change of strategy in the next big away game. Think this might happen with Amrabat likely to be acclimatised by the time that comes around
 
eire-red said:
Brighton have done an amazing job, but I think we have to acknowledge the step from bring a 'Brighton' in 6th, to top of the league is enormous.

I'm not trying to criticise Brighton, because they're overachieving within the constraints that they should have as a club. But it's easier to build up from being that yo-yo club to being that Top 10 team that pushes for Europe every now and then.

The pressure of trying to climb to the top, battling for that 1% of top talent, the pressure every week, the demands of going deep in all cups, every signing needing to be perfect and instantly hit the ground running, you just can't compare it.

We can't copy the Brighton model because we're not Brighton and we never will be. People look to these teams and complain and say 'why can't we play like that?' or 'why can't we be like that?'. What would they say if we got thumped 4-1 at home to West Ham? People would be calling for ten Hag's head.
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the_cliff said:
Yes but they are Brighton, again as I mentioned in the previous post our expectations and Brightons aren't the same, they can afford to spend 10 mill on a nobody in the Venezuelan league and have him not perform for 2-3 seasons, we can't. So comparing United and Brighton in terms of structure makes no sense at all. Again Brighton's best ever season is 6th, if we finish 6th this season ETH will be sacked, we are not the same.

Just look at what happened at Chelsea last season ? they took Brighton's scouts and pretty much the whole structure, signed young players that have potential but aren't quite ready yet and have had to change their whole approach this summer. They finished mid table last season and could very well finish mid table this season.
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Well, Brighton don't have the funding of United. You can emulate Brighton's structure, and then add in United's money to keep talents, bring in more depth, and to sign a very select few of the most expensive players. Brighton cannot do these things hence why they're not able to do what United do in a good season. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't work with United, nor are the things United can do a refutation of Brighton's structure.

Their structure would be an improvement on United. It could very well be luck, but considering United have gone through how many years and how many players? You would think United would by chance run into some of that luck (transfer hit rate), but it hasn't happened yet. Hence why I don't believe it's ENTIRELY down to luck.

Some of it probably is, but by improving your structure you can increase your chances at the margins for getting a lucky draw. It's like having a good academy. By having a good academy you increase your chances at providing your club a first team player because instead of having to rely on the fortune of 1 out of 10 good academy players over the last 10 years, with a good academy you now rely on the fortune of 1 out of 30 good academy players over the last 10 years. You still have to get lucky in both instances, but the latter is relying on less luck.

In fact, this same logic is partly why Brighton can't pull off a United, and it's easier to get to their spot in the table. They have to rely on the fortune of 4 out of 20 transfers to be successful, while United just need to pull of 1 of 5 to maintain success. Same rate, but one requires more volume which is harder to pull off. United get to keep their transfer successes by having more money.

We're also able to scout players that have a larger chance of success, and we're able to keep players that do well for us. Brighton have to resupply more often and need to introduce more variables (less proven), which makes it really impressive what they're doing. If they didn't have to resupply as much, but were then using their same structure to scout and do transfers with players that are intended to be more for depth, they would probably surpass the current United.

It's no surprise that Newcastle sniped up Dan Ashworth from Brighton to be their DOF last year.
 
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the_cliff said:
I don't get this constant praise of Brighton and fans saying we should have a structure like Brighton. It's absolute bollocks, we're Man United we aren't a mid table side that can take gambles on talents that have never played in Europe.
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I think a lot of major clubs do it these days.

You just do it side-by-side with signings of proven players, or semi-proven semi-young ones.
 
the_cliff said:
Yes and when they are signed aren't thrown into contention right away.
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And to add, United are stuck in a perpetual loop of needing 3/4 top quality signings to improve the first team. It's hard to even budget for those signings.

Only a select few teams, like City, have the luxury of taking a punt on Alvarez knowing you can give them time. They're also walking into a well oiled machine.

Not many teams you can say that about.
 
the_cliff said:
I don't get this constant praise of Brighton and fans saying we should have a structure like Brighton. It's absolute bollocks, we're Man United we aren't a mid table side that can take gambles on talents that have never played in Europe. Last season was Brighton's best ever season.... They finished 6th. ETH finishes 6th this season, he'll be sacked.
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We do it all the time as do other big clubs.

We just don't generally get the right one's.
 
the_cliff said:
I don't get this constant praise of Brighton and fans saying we should have a structure like Brighton. It's absolute bollocks, we're Man United we aren't a mid table side that can take gambles on talents that have never played in Europe. Last season was Brighton's best ever season.... They finished 6th. ETH finishes 6th this season, he'll be sacked.
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We're doing worse. We're gambling on 80-90m overhyped players whom we have zero clue how to integrate into the team and just buys them then starts to think where should they play.
 
DJ_21 said:
Our structure is a shambles as we all know… since Fergie left we’ve gone through like 6 managers each with different style of plays… that right there is already the sign of terrible thinking.
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While I agree with this, it's very easy to say with a decade of hindsight.

The majority of people on here agreed that the manager should have total power after Fergie retired and tbh I think it was still the majority view up until Mourinho - and if you recall, when Mourinho wanted certain players out and was vetoed, there was still considerable uproar on here.
 
Imagine if Brighton signed Garnacho from Atletico... wow... super impressive.
 
el3mel said:
We're doing worse. We're gambling on 80-90m overhyped players whom we have zero clue how to integrate into the team and just buys them then starts to think where should they play.
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I think the point is that we overpaid for Antony because we needed someone to come in there and then and hit the ground running because Utd need results.

The same way we overpaid for Casemiro and Sancho

We also have a Utd tax, a punishment for our transfer stupidity and that compounds the problem
 
cpresc said:
While I agree with this, it's very easy to say with a decade of hindsight.

The majority of people on here agreed that the manager should have total power after Fergie retired and tbh I think it was still the majority view up until Mourinho - and if you recall, when Mourinho wanted certain players out and was vetoed, there was still considerable uproar on here.
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It was the same under Solskjaer. When the club refused to pay £100m for Sancho in summer 2020, there was massive up-roar here. The chant of the summer was back him or sack him.
 
cpresc said:
I think the point is that we overpaid for Antony because we needed someone to come in there and then and hit the ground running because Utd need results.

The same way we overpaid for Casemiro and Sancho

We also have a Utd tax, a punishment for our transfer stupidity and that compounds the problem
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The issue isn't just overpaying. The issue is we overpay for players that we don't even have a plan how to use later on. It all started with Pogba whom we signed then spent 6 whole years not known what his position on the pitch should be, and the rest of the signings since then has been similar.
 
ETH : Can anyone who is NOT injured, suspended, feeling depressed, having marital or age related issues and is not under police investigation, please put their name on the team sheet.
 
Saw this on twitter.
El Ghazi & Reguilon over Pellistri & Fernandez...
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Really annoying when ETH is choosing to sign absolute dross over playing our young players.

Big red mark against him, for me.
 
el3mel said:
The issue isn't just overpaying. The issue is we overpay for players that we don't even have a plan how to use later on. It all started with Pogba whom we signed then spent 6 whole years not known what his position on the pitch should be, and the rest of the signings since then has been similar.
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Actually, it started way before Pogba.

Moyes overpaid for Fellaini and, for some reason, didn't use him as a more attack minded midfielder. Probably because he was scared of the reaction to him being our big threat upfront after already being mocked for signing him in the first place. The only time we used him to his maximum capabilities was that mini run in van Gaal's first season. Outside of that, he was an ineffective starter or a super sub.

Then he overpaid for Mata who, for about 95% of his time here, was shoehorned on the right because no manager trusted him centrally due to his limitations. I think he was our most expensive signing ever at that point, too.

Then van Gaal signed di Maria for what I think was our most expensive transfer ever. Nothing more needs to be said about this transfer.

They're the big ones before Pogba. Some don't really think of Mata and Fellaini because we've wasted so much money since then that their fees don't seem so bad, but, at the time, Mata was our most expensive transfer ever and Fellaini was probably top 5, and neither ever justified that like all our bigger flops since them.
 
  • This doesn't seem right. We've spent huge amount of money but is it more than Chelsea really?
  • Another media smear campaign?

But also we need to achieve more with what has been spent. Club has spent incredible amount of money with little to show for it.


 
Licha-Vidic said:
  • This doesn't seem right. We've spent huge amount of money but is it more than Chelsea really?
  • Another media smear campaign?


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'CIES Football Observatory' which is some pseudo intellectual, but actually nonsensical shite.
 
Licha-Vidic said:
  • This doesn't seem right. We've spent huge amount of money but is it more than Chelsea really?
  • Another media smear campaign?

But also we need to achieve more with what has been spent. Club has spent incredible amount of money with little to show for it.


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Chelsea did spend more on transfers, but they also sold a lot of players again. So if you consider only those currently part of the squad it makes sense. United's weakness at selling contributes to this stat.
 
Just seen something online about ETH always having problems with his players. He benched David Neres for a couple of games once because he mentioned something about ETH hair :lol:
 
Geez, he's inherited some player problems hasn't he?! Like the Ronaldo debacle, the situation with EtH and Sancho is only going to have one winner. I can see the fans rightly backing the manager and the OT crowd will be fully behind him.

Don't see how anyone can claim there hasn't been some serious player power issues with the past three or four managers.
 
Ronaldo, Sancho, Antony, expecting Greenwood back but not getting him, being stuck with players we can't get rid of.

He certainly got a messy situation.
 
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