What kind of logic is this? If he deems either not good enough, you think he wouldn't be allowed to move them on or stop playing them?
For what it's worth, you can easily create a title winning side with Rashford. Bruno, I'm less convinced.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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What kind of logic is this? If he deems either not good enough, you think he wouldn't be allowed to move them on or stop playing them?
For what it's worth, you can easily create a title winning side with Rashford. Bruno, I'm less convinced.
True but Rice shot was primarily going to the center of the goal, the deflection sent it to the near post, Onana did save the ball but it was not strong enough hand to push the ball away. Onana did get down extremely fast to save the shot. 100% not a goal keeping mistake.
Remember the Gundogan goal in FA CUP Final, that was De Gea mistake on not getting down fast enough.
On this even after deflection Onana did save the ball albeit not strong enough to deny the ball from going through.
I think alot of people have already a perception about the game, same as I was but looking at things keenly, we did extremely good. Evans substitution was the main undoing.
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No, he wouldn't. And i wish i had your optimism.
What exactly makes you say that?
There's been no precedent of the board forcing ETH's selection on certain players. There is zero evidence of what you're claiming.
Sorry I just saw this post after trying to catch up to this thread.
Is there any legal link to this? I'd love to watch it if it actually analyzes our game
He's been given lots of funds to affect the first phase of the build-up and the personnel in the midfield. The purpose of the team remains the same, though: Make everything to accommodate the main star players. We even made it our mission statement this season to become "the best transition team in the world". If you believe that his persistence with a winger that offers little more than work-rate and ball-carrying and the huge fee for a young and unproven forward who's main job will be to hustle the opposition centre-halves has nothing to do with creating spaces and giving a few extra seconds on the ball to these two players who absolutely need these qualities from somewhere else because they can't create them on their own, feel free to offer your explanation. You think they offered both brand-new contracts to allow the manager to bench them? Again, he took the job. If he fails, it will ultimately be on him.
This will be very tough season for him, with the likes of Mct, Maguire and Sancho well aware that they're not wanted, and just plodding along until they can be shifted and potentially having detrimental effect on dressing room.
For what it's worth, I hope we stick with EtH, and stop looking for another miracle worker, who can try and sort this shit out instantly.
Van Gaal already advised EtH not to come here, we're really going to have 1 star reviews on TrustAtrader soon.
For what it's worth, I hope we stick with EtH, and stop looking for another miracle worker, who can try and sort this shit out instantly.
Van Gaal already advised EtH not to come here, we're really going to have 1 star reviews on TrustAtrader soon.
I think talks of sacking him are not exactly practical right now.
- Is our general play better than what we had under Jose/Ole? Definitely.
There is a certain structure or an actual game plan to get the ball moving. We may still be relying on individual brilliance sometimes, but the general play is clear. Move the ball at the back, beat the press, once the press is beaten, perform a quick attack using the numbers advantage. Under Ole/Jose, the entire build up was get the ball to Rashford/Martial on the wings and pray they do something with it.
Now, someone will say we did nothing with the ball against Arsenal and just played it around in defense (ala Van Gaal days). This was a one-off game where we had no midfielder who can quickly receive and turn with the ball and take it forward (Mount, hopefully Amrabat). Once we have this player available (think Bernardo Silva when he used to carry the ball for City/De Jong when he carries it with Barca), most of us will see the very clear improvement.
- Are teams harassing/pressing us as much as they used to? No.
Arsenal stopped pressing midway through the first half when Onana kept chipping the ball over their pressers and gave us a numbers advantage in midfield through the passes/crosses. They tried to press again late on in the game and then Onana played a good pass to Martinez who set off the chain sequence for a good chance (if I'm not mistaken around the 77th ish minute), through once again a numbers advantage cause we bypassed their press.
During the Ole/Jose years, we'd have DDG hoof the ball up and pray that Lukaku/Zlatan/Pogba get a good header on the ball.
I think the above two were our biggest problems as a squad (performance wise) for the last few seasons. We'd either have no idea what to do with the ball in possession or crumble at the first sight of a runner pressing our defenders/midfielders.
If you want to get someone who has no progressive football and just gets results, sure fire him and get someone in. Then in 2 years we'll be wondering what went wrong when he's sacked after a bad patch.
ETH is the guy, we should stick with him.
- Is our general play better than what we had under Jose/Ole? Definitely.
There is a certain structure or an actual game plan to get the ball moving. We may still be relying on individual brilliance sometimes, but the general play is clear. Move the ball at the back, beat the press, once the press is beaten, perform a quick attack using the numbers advantage. Under Ole/Jose, the entire build up was get the ball to Rashford/Martial on the wings and pray they do something with it.
Now, someone will say we did nothing with the ball against Arsenal and just played it around in defense (ala Van Gaal days). This was a one-off game where we had no midfielder who can quickly receive and turn with the ball and take it forward (Mount, hopefully Amrabat). Once we have this player available (think Bernardo Silva when he used to carry the ball for City/De Jong when he carries it with Barca), most of us will see the very clear improvement.
- Are teams harassing/pressing us as much as they used to? No.
Arsenal stopped pressing midway through the first half when Onana kept chipping the ball over their pressers and gave us a numbers advantage in midfield through the passes/crosses. They tried to press again late on in the game and then Onana played a good pass to Martinez who set off the chain sequence for a good chance (if I'm not mistaken around the 77th ish minute), through once again a numbers advantage cause we bypassed their press.
During the Ole/Jose years, we'd have DDG hoof the ball up and pray that Lukaku/Zlatan/Pogba get a good header on the ball.
I think the above two were our biggest problems as a squad (performance wise) for the last few seasons. We'd either have no idea what to do with the ball in possession or crumble at the first sight of a runner pressing our defenders/midfielders.
If you want to get someone who has no progressive football and just gets results, sure fire him and get someone in. Then in 2 years we'll be wondering what went wrong when he's sacked after a bad patch.
ETH is the guy, we should stick with him.
Yep. It’s questionable to hand Bruno that contract before ETH got here.
Might not seem like much but it’s a decision taken out of his hands before he got here. A lot of people did take issue to it.
Doubt he wouldn’t have come to the same conclusion about the player as seen with Rashford but we did not let him. Instead we created the operational parameters on this one.
Indeed, sums up my views to be honest. Re the bolded bit, you could say that about any manager. Looking at it bluntly, whatever he achieved at Ajax (who are very well resourced and have a great youth set up) that's promising, but no more.
Last season we looked reliant on players pulling something out of the bag. Rashford carried the side in spells.
If it's a fitness issue that's a massive red flag in respect of the coaching set up generally.
I'm sorry, a year should be enough for a top manger to put his stamp on a team filled with high quality players. This is, ultimately, my problem. What he's trying to do is not obvious. At this stage it's either the players inability to do what he wants, in which case he needs to come up with something else because he's lumbered with them, or that the players don't understand what they need to do.
Building from the back won't work if the midfield can't progress the ball.
And blaming the players is pointless. These are the players he has and he can't hide behind that. I'd be willing to wager that Eriksen, or Fernandes, or Casemiro would slot into other much less illustrious Premier League sides and look like much better players because those sides have a clear system and a plan.
You're entitled to your opinions and I don't disagree with everything you say. He should be given time, but he's also already had plenty of time to show his abilities. The situation at the club generally is a challenge but he's hardly been hamstrung in the transfer market. Something has to change and relatively quickly, or people start to think we've just got another manager who ultimately isn't good enough.
He was praised for his pragmatic approach after Brentford but for me that was a warning sign. I want a manager totally committed to an idea.
Aye exactly, surely several managers all with wildly different approaches, styles and tactics can't all have had issues with transfer targets, selling and results unless there's something else going on.
The common denominator is Glazers. Every manager has had issues getting their priority targets and offloading unwanted players.
I think we were all given confirmation on this with Ragnick having his job offer withdrawn once he made his concerns and observations public.
You have to wonder whether if we had thrown on Tobido/Pavard instead of Maguire/Evans would the result have been different?
ETH needs far more than 1 full season to turn this side around. From the looks of it, he will need at a minimum 3 years. No different to other managers like klopp and arteta who have also spent big in the past.
ETH needs far more than 1 full season to turn this side around. From the looks of it, he will need at a minimum 3 years. No different to other managers like klopp and arteta who have also spent big in the past.
So you’d preferred if we’d stuck with trying to play it out from the back with De Gea all of last season? Something tells me you wouldn’t have.
It would have paid off for us longer term, or just drop the keeper? Or better still, come on last summer and get a keeper right away like Pep did. Doesn't show me he has total confidence in his ideas.
Promote this man asap, please. We need more level headed people here.
This thread is a disaster otherwise.
How would it have paid off? You saw the Brentford game!
the idea of a manager who sticks totally to his ideas, when they clearly not going to work, and never budges isn’t something to aspire for to me anyway. I want someone who can adapt and change, do better with what they’ve got, something I’ve not always been convinced by with him, but that’s not my overall point.Pep would have come in and demanded we play a certain way. He was beaten 4-0 in his first season late on by Everton. Didn't waver.How would it have paid off? You saw the Brentford game!
Aye and you’d have been perfectly happy to see us getting thrashed every week and finishing mid table, your posts really suggest you’d be reasonable if that had been the outcome. You’d be posting his ideas don’t work and he hasn’t a clue.
That idea is lost on a lot of people. Bunch of whiny cry babies my book.
Some managers come in and straight away get the team playing, but they don't tend to last long, Conte is a great example. Because they then need to up their playing squad to continue the improvements and don't get what they need right away and the team struggles. They get sacked.
ETH is having to adapt his style and add to the squad as he goes along to reach a point where he has enough to have them playing how he wants. Once that happens the gradual squad improvements along the way have all had time to adapt to his style. The whole team is better long term as a result and you end up having a better long term outlook.
I maintain it takes 3 years to build a team and get all the moving parts to gel and be in synch in order to build a side that is capable of being successful over a number of years. Even SAF during his rebuilds suffered this same process, Klopp is going through it now too.
The team would have adapted in time, that result was a bit of a freak and the next games wouldn't have gone as badly. We are now in a situation where the team doesn't really have a strong identity and the players don't have that trust in the system, you can see it.
You think things wouldn’t have gone badly in our next game, at home to Liverpool, if we’d taken the same approach as we did against Brentford?
Remind me please when we have finished mid-table under Ten Hag, or for that matter who even said it's ok to finish mid table?
A squad both needed a complete overhaul AND is full of quality players? Interesting concept.
What are you going on about? Either read a conversation properly or just don’t bother, your posts constantly baffle me.
The Sancho comments does show potential signs of unrest among the dressing room.
Scroll faster?
There’s still more work to be done in this aspect, but the fact that there’s some level of unity in the dressing room is a minor miracle considering the ineffectual leadership that preceded ETH.
I couldn't be bothered enough to write this but spot on.
There were a few ideas with keeping the ball at the back, one was to rest on the ball, the other was to suck Arsenal in and spring on them , exactly like how Antony scored against them at Old Trafford last year. The reason that situation didn't happen was Arsenal decided not to press, cause they were wary of exactly that situation. Which still means we rest with the ball and we don't end up defending constantly because we keep giving the ball away every 2 seconds.
Having onana means we won't get pressed as much. Huge huge huge benefit.
But from their the next step is possession in midfield and final 3rd and patience and probing (unlike away to Spurs 2nd half), without getting countered easily like Wolves did. Also can't rely on sucking the other team to press and then play thru that to create. That really only can work away, at home we have to be more proactive. Areas for improvement.
The club backed him unequevitably when it came to the squad; there was no compromise on keeping players he did not want, and he even was allowed to get rid of players he had signed after a season.
When you have this type of backing, you can afford not to waver.
ETH is having to play Maguire at CB, had to play DDG in goal all season and in Jan after getting Ronaldo out of the club, wasn't even allowed to sign a proper CF with Martial injured. He got Weghorst on loan.
You cannot compare the two situations at all
It shows there’s unrest from one individual who’s unhappy he’s not playing because the managers noticed he’s not been pulling his weight in training, and judging by the effort he’s shown when he does get on the pitch I quite believe ETH.
Pretty much.
It was a decent performance, first half we didn't create much but we controlled Arsenals threat well. Much improved second half where we started to control the game against Arsenal before both injuries and mental collapse after the disallowed goal cost us
From a tactical point of view, this is the third time I would say we played Arsenal and dealt with them well under ETH
In terms of ownership is there any club in league that can be compared to our situation? The only I could think of in recent times is Mike Ashley and he’s gone. Even Kroenke got his **** together eventually.
Think he's only been able to play his bonafide best XI maybe 3 or 4 times since taking over? Horrendous luck with injuries all across the board
The issue I have with him as Manager is his blatant favoritism of certain players who will never be dropped no matter how badly they play as well as his general arrogance with regards to rotation. I also dislike his cloak and dagger approach to information, claiming people are unfit/unavailable yet the next day they train with their Nation ie McTominay.
He needs 2-3 years to get it right but will he that is the question
He needs 2-3 years to get it right but will he that is the question
He's a manager that generally wants to play an aggressive, counter pressing style. Had he tried this against Arsenal with two relatively unathletic midfielders that aren't great at winning duals, we'd of had no chance. Eriksen and Bruno would absolutely not slot into any system that requires them to win back possession on a consistent basis, especially not in this league against the bigger. His gameplan against Arsenal was instead to slow the game down and try to keep possession, and it was a 10th of an inch away from working. It's right in front of your eyes yet you're focused on meaningless and uninformed hypotheticals.
He clearly has put his stamp on it, he just doesn't have us playing as world beaters yet. And the players, while high quality, aren't necessarily high quality in the areas required. Even Guardiola needed more than a year, and to buy an entirely new set of full backs, and that's after inheriting a team that had won 2 of the previous 4 titles.
You're right about building from the back, but it's irrelevant. It also won't work if we can't keep the ball at the back, that's a problem that has been solved, the midfield portion will be next.
On top of that, EtH has clearly showed his abilities, he took over a team in disarray, that finished 6th, that was replacing the entire structure above him at the same time, and took it to 3rd, a trophy, and another final. It's just completely disingenuous to act like he hasn't achieved anything, given what he started with.
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