Last season he was trying to get to the next game in a piled up fixture list and injuries / suspensions everywhere. This season he is trying to coach a whole new tactical setup which the players have struggled with. He hasn't started a game with his first choice 11 in months and won't now til November at the earliest. And he is 3 games in. Give him a frigging break.
Erik ten Hag | 2022/23 & 2023/24
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Name one top side who has done that - who before hasn't had a possesion based manager for years and has to learn everything from scratch?
Yeah, impatient entitled fans for starters.Over the years on here I’ve heard this exact same thing for Moyes. LVG, Mourinho, Ole and Rangnick.
There is something massively wrong at this club
Is it feck!
hard disagree.
Glazers ARE at fault. They set the culture of this club to “rinse it for every penny you can”
players come in, see the dire stadium, sub par training facilities… see their juicy salary packets and just roll with the culture.
Meanwhile, other far better managed clubs set the culture about winning at all costs. Players join and they know they need to win.
we’re a money machine servicing finance first bankers and semi retired exceptionally well paid footballers
that is the culture the Glazers have set
I think I do have a grasp. And you can congratulate yourself for all the positivity you bring into this forum. And by the way, I want to continue with the manager as well. I just don't think, it makes sense to post 15 second clips to prove anything. ETH certainly improved us and made us more comfortable on the ball. Especially in builtup. But it all seems to go out of the window as soon as we reach the 2nd third. And one sequence against Forrest is not changing that. As I said, even under Ole, we created some good sequences, even scored great team goals. The team still didn't really improve sustainably. We are work in progress, it is what it is. Overly harsh criticism doesn't make much sense to me too, but the same goes for hollow praise.
What about attacking the posts, not the posters? I expected better from such a positive and longlasting contributor. Also, exchange Antony for Rashford - get your facts straight.
Yeah. Redcafe in all its glory. Ugly win against Forrest, not participating in praise is labelled criticism and one second later, everyone who isn't joining the party wants the manager to be gone.
Makes sense.
edit: @Pogue Mahone - I hope, that isn't "overly long" again. Would really hurt to be considered as a problem by you.
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I can’t disagree with any of that.
Players of that technical ability don't exist anymore
Brilliant comment. Agree with everything you said.
This is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but it's poorly informed.
I can't believe the negative vibes from some posters on here, especially recently. Yes, we've not made the best start, but neither did we last season yet look where we finished. ETH can only do what he can with the money he is being given. We have a class manager at present, who will come good once he gets the right players in. Some on here think that ETH can't do the job. How about where he has got us to - 3rd last season and Champions League. Admittedly we will struggle in the Champs League this season, possibly but the fact we are there speaks volumes about what ETH is capable of at our club. We need to start believing in him, not rollicking him every time we have a poor performance. Let's get behind him. We have some top players here, top young guns coming through and with 2-3 newbies in the transfers who knows, especially once Hoijlund is fit and able...
Just wanted to say that I really appreciate posts like this. My brain can barely process "man go kicky kick at the ball" during games let alone analyse any of the things you've highlighted, so cheers.
The funniest thing is, pundits who are paid to actually see those things, don't talk about it at all. They just use lazy narratives. IMO, they're the ones actually spreading the idea of us lacking patterns of play, because their lazily comparing it with perfection of Pep's systems. I understand that they can't watch and properly analyze all teams in the league given the sheer amount of games, but yeah you can't push a narrative to millions of people without actually studying what you are talking about, it's quite clear they don't. For example pundits are looking at Mason Mount and discussing how light United's midfield is, because we played two games with him which it was easy to get past our midfield quickly. So therefore Mount doesn't work. Not taking into account of our team settling into a new system or the fact that Mount was actually taking on a massive defensive load due to Garnacho's poor tracking back ( forcing him to try and cover the left hand side) and our full backs being late to transition from inverting, which Shaw was doing (he's injured, so fitness may have been the reason for this for him). Fans who have one idea of how a midfield should work( always asking for a regista), who already had concerns over Mounts signing, used this as an opportunity to confirm their bias, despite the fact that Mounts intensity and positional awareness was a large part of why we dominated the first half against Spurs.
It’s one of the least relevant things that happened last season as a means of judging the manager. Off the top of my head it’s behind, player development, league position, style of play, youth development, football tactics, cup runs, trophies. Basically it’s largely irrelevant when judging a season and manager. It’s 3 points at the end of the day, people need to get over it.Is it feck!
Of course it is, that is the most freak result I have ever seen in my life. Literally everything they tried went for them and everything we tried did not, every single deflection went to them etc. It was even freakier than our 6:2 against Roma, and in that game everything we tried went in basically.Is it feck!
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This is good
The price of signings are just the market. We can't judge the 3 signings made this year already and your saying Martinez and Casemiro were poor? Anthony is the only one we can say is poor but seen glimpses and we could of got him sooner and cheaper if the club didn't delay.
The issue is, is that we need consistency. Can't keep doing that sacking managers then changing styles etc. It's been 12 months and we went from 6th to 3rd and got in 2 finals winning 1.
Fans are to entitled because it the fergie era but we need to remember fergie took how many years before he started winning?
Jesus Christ, does this man sign anyone that hasn't played under him or the Eredivise? He's wasted so much money on dross, we can't get a Director of Football quick enough.
Bit knee jerk?
Last season everyone was good that came in. Questions on if Antony can adapt and kick on, if Martinez will rediscover pre injury form but last season was a successful first season.
Onana looks great on initial impressions
Mount has question marks
Hojlund is injured
Weghorst, Malacia and Antony were/have been subpar signings. Wout was worse than Ighalo. The only thing they did good was show how much they actually loved just playing here.
Martinez and Casemiro have been great signigns. Overall we have spent money that are dead investments, just like previous years, a couple golden boys, the rest between meh to please leave.
I guess Wout I feel there weren't many options, same as Ighalo in fairness - mid season loans are never good idea but it's just bodies in the door.
Malacia was like £13m and a massive upgrade on Telles, he was a great cheap signing.
Antony I think is a good player but this is his make/break season for sure. His detractors can't really deny we were better as a team with him last season but he absolutely has to kick on now and start adding assists and goals.
Casemiro was a short term necessity, the only hope there for 'investment' is Saudi
Martinez I think is class, I do worry he looks a bit ropey after the injury though - hopefully it's just the poor form we've seen throughout the team ironing itself out after a bad pre season.
ETH has put himself under unnecessary pressure with Mount but it's hardly a terrible transfer record. If Hojlund flops and Onana ends up not working out I will change my view though.
Thanks for the note as it probably took a little time. I do think you're overcomplicating matters though, and some of the narrative used may confuse. 'Fluidity amongst the front 5, constant interchange of positions..' Don't agree at all. Antony rarely leaves the right flank. Rashford / Garnacho likewise during a game. Tevez, Rooney and CR7 were a truly fluid front three, you name me who played where with those three?
We do not play a back three. We play a traditional back four.
The rest is much of a muchness, but trust me, I like some on here, struggle to see an ETH style. I see a Klopp style. I see a Thomas Frank style at Brentford. Of course, I see a Pep style. I even see a Sean Dyche style.
But an ETH style? Sorry.. not quite. I see a team that can fluctutate between looking solid, to one which is wide-open. The front three has no connection at all. We hope for inspiration to create goals. Look at Saturday's game.
I'm not saying we play badly, we had a terrific season last year, as we were v organised, and had a forward, in-form who won us many games. But a style? Not yet for me...
There has been a lot of progression in our patterns of play and especially in how we keep our shape. The problem is the lack of consistency with it.
Not really happy with the signing of Mount though, really poor choice of midfielder given our budgetary restraints. I think we all would just like to see a bit of control in the middle of the park for once.
I think Malacia for the money has been a good squad player to be fair.
Evaluation last season 22/23
+ It is his first season last year. He tried to get Frenkie De Jong to play his football he want. But didn't get that kind of ball playing cm playmaker. Then in the end of last summer transfer. He got Casemiro instead. Who his best abilities is to break down opponent attacks. Special in his best days and what Casemiro was know for. Casemiro is and has never been a Modric kind of cm player, neither a allround cm player like Toni Kroos.
+ So it lead to. Ten Hag decide to go 4231 formation and against the best teams in premier league. United will end up as a counter attack team most of the times.
I agreed he should play a style that suit the players most.
And the premier league was new to him and his staff. He didn't know all the strength of opponent teams.
And with the pressure of gettting top 4 and bring champion league back to United.
Ten Hag and his staff went for safe decisions. What suit United's players. Which was 4231 formation.
But future goals for United and Ten Hag. From mine point of view.
+ If Ten Hag want to play 433 and total football. A ball playing cm playmaker shall be his first priority. Beside to strenght his weak CB's options. Why?
I don't if Casemiro hasn't up to top speed or fitness, yet. After a summer break and preseason. When Casemiro was struggling against a team like Wolves. Not City or Liverpool. Then the bing is ringing = United and Ten Hag needs to upgrade. Special against teams United shall dominate most of times during the matches.
Ten Hag and United simply need and a premier league team demand and require a top and world class nr.6 playmaker.
A United team and midfield that control, dictate and dominate the possesion most of the time. Apart from City, Liverpool and Arsenal.
If Ten Hag and United want to reach the next level and top level. A world class nr.6 playmaker is needed and demand.
Example of a top ball playing playmaker/who control the ball and tempo ? :
- City has Rodri as the nr.6 ball playing playmaker.
- Napoli with Stanislav Lobotka as the cm nr.6 playmaker
There are more example of nr.6 ball playing playmaker in football history. Like Busquets for Barcelona. Pirlo at the top nr.6 passer. Gerrard the midfield general for Liverpool. Peoples who dictate the passes and the tempo of the ball.
BUT.
You can win the league and biggest troophies with a more defensive minded nr.6. Example from history. The peak Casemiro. But he has to have a super creative world class nr.8 beside him. Luckily Casemiro had the world class nr.8 in Luka Modric beside him. " the brain of the team" The cm playmaker.
Or Fernandinho with City before Rodri came.
Gattuso for Milan back in days
or Makele for Chelsea
Javier Mascherano or Barcelona before Busquets
And one more thing. Some of his ex Ajax players were really good for Ajax to win the dutch league. But not 100 % sure they are good enough to win premier league. He shall go for the best players around the world. Not only players he has relations with.
United want and need the best players with right mentality and figthing spirit around the world. Not only with his ex players. Even i know someone are meant to each others. But new bond a ready to be make.
Sum up. I came with 2 type of nr.6 :
- A controlling and ball playing playmaker as his best abilities
- A more attacker breaker nr.6. But still can start precise counter attack after winning the ball + he has a world class creative nr.8 beside him
To play 433 and total football.
With 2 really skill ful and pacey wingers with high end product and a clinical and sharpt CF/nr.9.
With super conistent and creative nr.6
A deep ball playing nr.6/top ball winner
A rock solid and world class defend.
That is the way to go
United midfield right now:
Mount is new. Looks like he needs time to adapt
Casemiro is not at his peak anymore. Special the speed and athletic not on top compare to opponents players.
Eriksen not at his peak anymore
And any winning team is based on a rock solid defend :
Look at the treble winning team in history
+ United with Stam
+ Inter with Brazil Lucio and Samuel
+ City with Ruben Dias and Rodri
You get to be complete as a team as possible = both top defend and attack
Because what is the point to conquer others castles. When you lost your own castle. By playing way to open and high. Like you invite you enemy to attack you.
To be complete as a team without or few weakness are the keys.
+ It is his first season last year. He tried to get Frenkie De Jong to play his football he want. But didn't get that kind of ball playing cm playmaker. Then in the end of last summer transfer. He got Casemiro instead. Who his best abilities is to break down opponent attacks. Special in his best days and what Casemiro was know for. Casemiro is and has never been a Modric kind of cm player, neither a allround cm player like Toni Kroos.
+ So it lead to. Ten Hag decide to go 4231 formation and against the best teams in premier league. United will end up as a counter attack team most of the times.
I agreed he should play a style that suit the players most.
And the premier league was new to him and his staff. He didn't know all the strength of opponent teams.
And with the pressure of gettting top 4 and bring champion league back to United.
Ten Hag and his staff went for safe decisions. What suit United's players. Which was 4231 formation.
But future goals for United and Ten Hag. From mine point of view.
+ If Ten Hag want to play 433 and total football. A ball playing cm playmaker shall be his first priority. Beside to strenght his weak CB's options. Why?
I don't if Casemiro hasn't up to top speed or fitness, yet. After a summer break and preseason. When Casemiro was struggling against a team like Wolves. Not City or Liverpool. Then the bing is ringing = United and Ten Hag needs to upgrade. Special against teams United shall dominate most of times during the matches.
Ten Hag and United simply need and a premier league team demand and require a top and world class nr.6 playmaker.
A United team and midfield that control, dictate and dominate the possesion most of the time. Apart from City, Liverpool and Arsenal.
If Ten Hag and United want to reach the next level and top level. A world class nr.6 playmaker is needed and demand.
Example of a top ball playing playmaker/who control the ball and tempo ? :
- City has Rodri as the nr.6 ball playing playmaker.
- Napoli with Stanislav Lobotka as the cm nr.6 playmaker
There are more example of nr.6 ball playing playmaker in football history. Like Busquets for Barcelona. Pirlo at the top nr.6 passer. Gerrard the midfield general for Liverpool. Peoples who dictate the passes and the tempo of the ball.
BUT.
You can win the league and biggest troophies with a more defensive minded nr.6. Example from history. The peak Casemiro. But he has to have a super creative world class nr.8 beside him. Luckily Casemiro had the world class nr.8 in Luka Modric beside him. " the brain of the team" The cm playmaker.
Or Fernandinho with City before Rodri came.
Gattuso for Milan back in days
or Makele for Chelsea
Javier Mascherano or Barcelona before Busquets
And one more thing. Some of his ex Ajax players were really good for Ajax to win the dutch league. But not 100 % sure they are good enough to win premier league. He shall go for the best players around the world. Not only players he has relations with.
United want and need the best players with right mentality and figthing spirit around the world. Not only with his ex players. Even i know someone are meant to each others. But new bond a ready to be make.
Sum up. I came with 2 type of nr.6 :
- A controlling and ball playing playmaker as his best abilities
- A more attacker breaker nr.6. But still can start precise counter attack after winning the ball + he has a world class creative nr.8 beside him
To play 433 and total football.
With 2 really skill ful and pacey wingers with high end product and a clinical and sharpt CF/nr.9.
With super conistent and creative nr.6
A deep ball playing nr.6/top ball winner
A rock solid and world class defend.
That is the way to go
United midfield right now:
Mount is new. Looks like he needs time to adapt
Casemiro is not at his peak anymore. Special the speed and athletic not on top compare to opponents players.
Eriksen not at his peak anymore
And any winning team is based on a rock solid defend :
Look at the treble winning team in history
+ United with Stam
+ Inter with Brazil Lucio and Samuel
+ City with Ruben Dias and Rodri
You get to be complete as a team as possible = both top defend and attack
Because what is the point to conquer others castles. When you lost your own castle. By playing way to open and high. Like you invite you enemy to attack you.
To be complete as a team without or few weakness are the keys.
Perspective is lost by many who are even now blaming ETH for the LB situation and coming to wild conclusions that he’s training the team too hard. Our slow start has resulted in 6 points from 3 games. It should be noted that Arteta took Arsenal to finishes of 8th, 8th and 5th before contending for the title in his 4th season. This is also after spending a significant amount of money on transfers. ten Hag is barely in year 2, has already delivered a top 3 finish and a trophy yet there are those questioning whether he’s the right manager. Insane.
It's worse than insane. You get the impression these posters have never had to do anything more complicated than decide what to eat for dinner. There's no appreciation of how plans are made, the time things take, how processes are created, people are taught, how you assess whether people are up to the challenge or not, how you handle inevitable difficulties. Ten Hag has obviously shown enough in his first season to deserve the benefit of the doubt and time to bed in the new season's system. The level of commentary from some of these "fans" is insulting to the intelligence.
So you're willing to criticise ETH for "bringing dross" on the basis of:
1. Weghorst - emergency loan signing who stayed here a couple of months.
2. Malacia - a cheap young player who is clearly AT LEAST a very valuable back up LB.
3. Antony - a young winger who clearly improves the team, works hard and has big potential, and already scored some stunning goals in his first season while contributing to our good table finish and first trophy since who knows when. A bit overpriced, sure. That's not on ETH.
Yeah, you're not making a great point, are you?
1. Weghorst - emergency loan signing who stayed here a couple of months.
2. Malacia - a cheap young player who is clearly AT LEAST a very valuable back up LB.
3. Antony - a young winger who clearly improves the team, works hard and has big potential, and already scored some stunning goals in his first season while contributing to our good table finish and first trophy since who knows when. A bit overpriced, sure. That's not on ETH.
Yeah, you're not making a great point, are you?
Hard to argue with any of that.
Watching us play, I really do not understand why he prioritised signing Mount over Kovacic
The first two are defensible, but Jesus can we stop using this cope of Antony "having big potential". He doesn't. It sounds like every fan who's club got rinsed on a player that doesn't want to admit the player isn't good.
Lovely football. This should be our blueprint for the season ahead.
I retain faith in ETHs plan for this team. He has identified all the players we could all see were deadwood is moved most on relatively quickly (given the bonanza Woodward contracts that still hamper us selling). The entire squad with a handful of exceptions needed replacing, and that is still not done and won’t be for another window or two.
I think above all he is a pragmatist, which is behind the likes of the cheap loans we have seen and are again linked with now.
Again if the Glazers were gone, we wouldn’t have our hands tied and have to go down that route. Prioritising Mount given the fee was surprising given the team’s difficulty in buildup, but it makes me think he must really rate Mainoo.
He has really gambled on Hojlund though. Cheaper mistakes are ok, but 70/80m mistakes (Antony) will kill your credibility, whether the fee is your responsibility or not, so please god he works out.
On the pitch I think you’re seeing the bedding in of a more advanced pressing system and that is going to take time, but as he did last season I think he will find a way to keep winning enough games, even if it’s not always as pure performance wise as we’d like to see.
I think above all he is a pragmatist, which is behind the likes of the cheap loans we have seen and are again linked with now.
Again if the Glazers were gone, we wouldn’t have our hands tied and have to go down that route. Prioritising Mount given the fee was surprising given the team’s difficulty in buildup, but it makes me think he must really rate Mainoo.
He has really gambled on Hojlund though. Cheaper mistakes are ok, but 70/80m mistakes (Antony) will kill your credibility, whether the fee is your responsibility or not, so please god he works out.
On the pitch I think you’re seeing the bedding in of a more advanced pressing system and that is going to take time, but as he did last season I think he will find a way to keep winning enough games, even if it’s not always as pure performance wise as we’d like to see.
Is it true we've offered him a new contract?
I swear this comment was said during the era of every single manager post SAF.
Nothing new. Caf has been just a repetition of one discussion over and over again with the exact same posts and replies for 10 years now. The only thing changing is the manager's name and who's on his side and who isn't.
The only thing that makes people believe Antony has big potential is the price tag, ignore that and the majority of teams in the league have a better rw
Not at all. Even if every one of his signings had been successful, it doesn't change the fact that giving the manager responsibility over transfers is not an optimal or sustainable structure.
Whilst I agree we should not let one person have so much say, I don't mind giving a manager leeway first season to bring in people they are 100% on.
This season is being clouded by the Mount transfer which is an odd one, it has only been 2 games though. Onana was a well known and incredibly highly rated GK that he knew, Evans is a random freebie he didn't know, Hojlund he didn't know to my knowledge.
I don't know how he will get top 4 with this injury ravaged squad but if he does, he's a genius!
You don't even have to do well. Just turn up a few games a year and bam, your contract gets renewed for much more than anyone else will pay you. We don't get rid of under performers here because the club wants to keep "assets" to retain some book value or something, while disguising that as "loyalty" or some other half baked romantic notions the fans just lap up.
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