Enzo Fernández | signs for Chelsea

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Adam-Utd said:
Agreed.

He's a solid player but is he really much better than Eriksen/Casemiro right now?

We aren't really in a position right now to be throwing £100m on the next fancy toy.

Give it another year or 2 and there will be another Fernandez on the line for way less. The world cup has made people go silly.
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He would be an improvement imo, but not worth of such outlay. To put things into context as people mention Grealish or Antony price like that is some kind of normal these days. Partey, Ødegaard, Martinelli and Jesus combined cost just 25 million more of what is asking price for Enzo Fernandez.

He is a very good player, lovely prospect, but as you this is a bit silly. We have even bigger priorities and that kind of money should get you 2 or even 3 starting players. We really should be a bit more sensible in the market.
 
He'd be worth every penny. For me he's better than Bellingham right now (although their profiles are slightly different and of course age is on Jude's side) and frankly Rice isn't fit to lace his boots. The rumour coming out of the Chelsea camp is that Vivell doesn't rate Rice at all and wants us to push for Enzo instead.

My hot take having watched him regularly is that he is already the most complete midfielder in Europe aged 21. Obviously the Portuguese league isn't anywhere close to the pinnacle of the sport but he was the best midfielder at the World Cup along with Modric and has performed similarly in the CL.

Would be an absolute coup for Chelsea if we can swing it. Our midfield has been a shambles now that Kante's knees are made of rubber bands.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
He'd be worth every penny. For me he's better than Bellingham right now (although their profiles are slightly different and of course age is on Jude's side) and frankly Rice isn't fit to lace his boots. The rumour coming out of the Chelsea camp is that Vivell doesn't rate Rice at all and wants us to push for Enzo instead.

My hot take having watched him regularly is that he is already the most complete midfielder in Europe aged 21. Obviously the Portuguese league isn't anywhere close to the pinnacle of the sport but he was the best midfielder at the World Cup along with Modric and has performed similarly in the CL.

Would be an absolute coup for Chelsea if we can swing it. Our midfield has been a shambles now that Kante's knees are made of rubber bands.
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If this is true, then wow. It’s one thing to prefer one talented player over another but to flat out not race a player as good as Rice is a bit baffling.

And I think there’s a bit overrating of Enzo going on here when you say Rice isn’t fit to lace his boots.
 
WeePat said:
If this is true, then wow. It’s one thing to prefer one talented player over another but to flat out not race a player as good as Rice is a bit baffling.

And I think there’s a bit overrating of Enzo going on here when you say Rice isn’t fit to lace his boots.
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I find the Rice love to be bizarre. He's an extremely limited player in possession. It's held England back since he became a regular.

I'd argue there's a pretty clear 3rd banana here:

 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I find the Rice love to be bizarre. He's an extremely limited player in possession. It's held England back since he became a regular.

I'd argue there's a pretty clear 3rd banana here:

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Almost looks like a comparison between two 8s and a 6.
 
desertegil said:
Almost looks like a comparison between two 8s and a 6.
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True - though Rice's ball progression is horrendous and as a 6 it should be easier for him.

But also, therein lies the rub - here's Enzo in the CL for Benfica:


And at the World Cup:


Obvious sample size issues aside, the data agree with the eye test that Enzo can play as a high level 6 whilst maintaining significant attacking output.

didz said:
With one of the players rated against the 'Next 8' rather than the 'Big 5' leagues.
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True. But he's played at a higher level of competition than Rice ever has and has done so more successfully. Whilst adapting to a new continent and being 2 years younger. The two are simply not on the same level.
 
WeePat said:
If this is true, then wow. It’s one thing to prefer one talented player over another but to flat out not race a player as good as Rice is a bit baffling.

And I think there’s a bit overrating of Enzo going on here when you say Rice isn’t fit to lace his boots.
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You guys should pay attention to the line up yesterday, then ask “which of those 3 isn’t getting an extension?”

The answer is Jorgihno. Long term Enzo is an 8, and Rice would be the one sliding back to cover the areas Zakaria was working in.

It isn’t an either/or situation.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
He'd be worth every penny. For me he's better than Bellingham right now (although their profiles are slightly different and of course age is on Jude's side) and frankly Rice isn't fit to lace his boots. The rumour coming out of the Chelsea camp is that Vivell doesn't rate Rice at all and wants us to push for Enzo instead.

My hot take having watched him regularly is that he is already the most complete midfielder in Europe aged 21. Obviously the Portuguese league isn't anywhere close to the pinnacle of the sport but he was the best midfielder at the World Cup along with Modric and has performed similarly in the CL.

Would be an absolute coup for Chelsea if we can swing it. Our midfield has been a shambles now that Kante's knees are made of rubber bands.
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I don't have the exact stats but I'll be amazed if the Portuguese league doesn't have the best success:flop ratio when it comes to coming to the PL.

It feels like 90% of them turn out to be a roaring success.
 
Fabrizo says none of us have actually triggered the clause. Mendes stirring the pot?

Or.. is it the obvious “duh” that no one would trigger the clause until they knew they reached agreement with Enzo and this is all semantics?
 
Dancfc said:
I don't have the exact stats but I'll be amazed if the Portuguese league doesn't have the best success:flop ratio when it comes to coming to the PL.

It feels like 90% of them turn out to be a roaring success.
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In general it's a very physical league. Certainly the pace of play isn't on par with the PL but you generally have to have an edge to succeed in Portugal - the Portuguese league usually ranks in the top 5 in terms of fouls committed per match across all European domestic leagues.

Bluelion7 said:
Fabrizo says none of us have actually triggered the clause. Mendes stirring the pot?

Or.. is it the obvious “duh” that no one would trigger the clause until they knew they reached agreement with Enzo and this is all semantics?
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Possibly - also worth considering that a buying club may not want to pay the full value of the clause up front and would instead prefer to negotiate installments.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
True - though Rice's ball progression is horrendous and as a 6 it should be easier for him.

But also, therein lies the rub - here's Enzo in the CL for Benfica:


And at the World Cup:


Obvious sample size issues aside, the data agree with the eye test that Enzo can play as a high level 6 whilst maintaining significant attacking output.



True. But he's played at a higher level of competition than Rice ever has and has done so more successfully. Whilst adapting to a new continent and being 2 years younger. The two are simply not on the same level.
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I mean, you've named the objections, but that in no way means you've addressed them. Certainly not enough to say Enzo and Rice aren't on the same level. One who has been a star player in a PL side for 5 years, and one who has been doing great for about 4 months in Portugal.

This is all academic as far as I'm concerned, to be clear, because I don't think United are capable of signing any of them. But there's no doubt any of the three would improve the squad massively, since they are all quality midfielders who'd offer something we lack.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
In general it's a very physical league. Certainly the pace of play isn't on par with the PL but you generally have to have an edge to succeed in Portugal - the Portuguese league usually ranks in the top 5 in terms of fouls committed per match across all European domestic leagues.



Possibly - also worth considering that a buying club may not want to pay the full value of the clause up front and would instead prefer to negotiate installments.
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And right on cue Benfica says “it has t been triggered. But it all had to be up front!! If… you know… hypothetically …it was going to be triggered”

The thing about that is … Clearlake basically are a bank. They can structure it in installments while still also paying the full amount up front.

I have real questions about whether he would want to leave Benfica mid season though. BUT … he could tear his knee up in a horror challenge two weeks from now, never fully recover, and miss out on real wealth.

Who knows?
 
didz said:
I mean, you've named the objections, but that in no way means you've addressed them. Certainly not enough to say Enzo and Rice aren't on the same level. One who has been a star player in a PL side for 5 years, and one who has been doing great for about 4 months in Portugal.

This is all academic as far as I'm concerned, to be clear, because I don't think United are capable of signing any of them. But there's no doubt any of the three would improve the squad massively, since they are all quality midfielders who'd offer something we lack.
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Sorry not sure how it's not addressed - Enzo has done more at the highest level of competition at a younger age than Rice has ever managed. He was named the best player in Argentina aged 21, he's been the single best and most influential player in Portugal this season playing from midfield, he won Golden Boy and the World Cup, and more tangibly he completely turned around Argentina's fortunes at said World Cup when he came into the starting XI after the Saudi Arabia debacle.

Compare this to Declan Rice at the same age - where he's coming off West Ham finishing 16th? He scored his first goal for England in the Nations League against Iceland?

I don't actively dislike Declan Rice beyond the fact that I think he's good at what he does but is also an extremely limited player in terms of where he can be deployed and what kinds of players need to be around him for him to be successful. The reality though is he is not and never has been in the same bracket as a prospective player as Enzo Fernandez is now.
 
I think River Plate would twat West ham, as would Benfica. Starring for them is more than Rice has ever done imo.
 
mu4c_20le said:
I think River Plate would twat West ham, as would Benfica. Starring for them is more than Rice has ever done imo.
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Not sure about this.

River Plate at its prime with Gallardo, got knocked out in the Club WC semis by a middle eastern club from Abu Dhabi, and that version of River Plate was much better than the current one.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Sorry not sure how it's not addressed - Enzo has done more at the highest level of competition at a younger age than Rice has ever managed. He was named the best player in Argentina aged 21, he's been the single best and most influential player in Portugal this season playing from midfield, he won Golden Boy and the World Cup, and more tangibly he completely turned around Argentina's fortunes at said World Cup when he came into the starting XI after the Saudi Arabia debacle.

Compare this to Declan Rice at the same age - where he's coming off West Ham finishing 16th? He scored his first goal for England in the Nations League against Iceland?

I don't actively dislike Declan Rice beyond the fact that I think he's good at what he does but is also an extremely limited player in terms of where he can be deployed and what kinds of players need to be around him for him to be successful. The reality though is he is not and never has been in the same bracket as a prospective player as Enzo Fernandez is now.
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Chiefly, small sample size and competition, of course. By competition, I am here referring to the large data set we have on Rice versus the extremely limited sample size you've provided for Enzo. Again, they're both great players, but it's extremely disingenuous to try to use those stats as proof that they're levels apart.

Again, we have about 4 months of data (or rather, about 10 games, talking just CL and WC) on Enzo, and over 4 years on Rice. Progression is very rarely linear - you can't just expect Enzo to be posting the same underlying numbers in the PL in four months time because his last 4 months has been so good in Portugal.

I also take issue with your denotion of Rice's progressive numbers as 'horrendous.' Take a look at Casemiro's and tell me he's a bad midfielder too. Rice is a bit more of a carrier, Casemiro more pass-first, but they both progress the ball about the same rate. He's playing as a 6 in a team that's had struggles stifling a bit under Moyes and struggling to get their season going atm, but the box-to-box ability is there going off his games for West Ham.

I'm all for using statistics, but you need to apply them over a level playing field or provided adequate context before throwing around terms like 'not on the same level.'
 
mu4c_20le said:
I think River Plate would twat West ham, as would Benfica. Starring for them is more than Rice has ever done imo.
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Even if you were right, what does that prove? It's about who you're doing it against when you're talking about players like this. Rice doing well against good opposition in a worse team, isn't that a good thing? I'm not saying Rice is the better player, I've not seen enough of Enzo to comment.
 
pocco said:
Even if you were right, what does that prove? It's about who you're doing it against when you're talking about players like this. Rice doing well against good opposition in a worse team, isn't that a good thing? I'm not saying Rice is the better player, I've not seen enough of Enzo to comment.
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The other poster was saying Rice starred in a PL team for years likes it's some achievement, I was just too lazy to pull that one sentence from the post.

As for opponents, how about holding psg to a draw twice
 
Adam-Utd said:
Agreed.

He's a solid player but is he really much better than Eriksen/Casemiro right now?

We aren't really in a position right now to be throwing £100m on the next fancy toy.

Give it another year or 2 and there will be another Fernandez on the line for way less. The world cup has made people go silly.
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My take is we are looking miles better with Eriksen, who performs a key role in making us tick... but his age shows and with his health record I would be wary about building the midfield around him.

It's a truckload of money but he fits the profile perfectly. Would be a far better investment than all the pointless luxury signings we've made in the last decade.

We don't have the money though so let's hope Eriksen can somehow keep it together for a couple of years. And then... we start looking at replacing both him and Casemiro.

It just feels wrong not to stick this guy into our current midfield and watch it chew up rivals. We are a never ending work in progress.
 
antohan said:
My take is we are looking miles better with Eriksen, who performs a key role in making us tick... but his age shows and with his health record I would be wary about building the midfield around him.

It's a truckload of money but he fits the profile perfectly. Would be a far better investment than all the pointless luxury signings we've made in the last decade.

We don't have the money though so let's hope Eriksen can somehow keep it together for a couple of years. And then... we start looking at replacing both him and Casemiro.

It just feels wrong not to stick this guy into our current midfield and watch it chew up rivals. We are a never ending work in progress.
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fair points. we do need to future proof also.

I just think there will be another coming along fairly soon that if we’re quick and smart can get him way ahead.

If only the club had the balls to sign him before benfica did. that’s what we need to change.
 
didz said:
Chiefly, small sample size and competition, of course. By competition, I am here referring to the large data set we have on Rice versus the extremely limited sample size you've provided for Enzo. Again, they're both great players, but it's extremely disingenuous to try to use those stats as proof that they're levels apart.

Again, we have about 4 months of data (or rather, about 10 games, talking just CL and WC) on Enzo, and over 4 years on Rice. Progression is very rarely linear - you can't just expect Enzo to be posting the same underlying numbers in the PL in four months time because his last 4 months has been so good in Portugal.

I also take issue with your denotion of Rice's progressive numbers as 'horrendous.' Take a look at Casemiro's and tell me he's a bad midfielder too. Rice is a bit more of a carrier, Casemiro more pass-first, but they both progress the ball about the same rate. He's playing as a 6 in a team that's had struggles stifling a bit under Moyes and struggling to get their season going atm, but the box-to-box ability is there going off his games for West Ham.

I'm all for using statistics, but you need to apply them over a level playing field or provided adequate context before throwing around terms like 'not on the same level.'
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Well it's not solely a data-driven argument here - hence my point about the accolades they'd won at the same age. I live in Portugal and am married into a Benfica-supporting family with season tickets - so I've watched probably 90% of Enzo's minutes this year with a good chunk of that being in person. I wouldn't state so definitively that Enzo is better than Rice on a purely statistical basis if I hadn't watched both play regularly and also accounted for the very different levels of success both have enjoyed.

Casemiro is a terrible terrible example to compare Rice to by the way - he has never been a primary ball progressor given he spent so much time next to Kroos and Modric and yet still his numbers are significantly better compared to Rice.

Of course I don't think there definitively won't be an adjustment period for Enzo should he join the PL and that he'll progress linearly de rigueur, but he's already taken to Portuguese, Champions League, and World Cup football like a duck to water so there is reason for optimism.

It's unequivocal that he's a better passer, better finisher, better dribbler, better at resisting a press, and has accomplished more in high-leverage situations. These are all attributes that make him a better fit for a top club that wants to challenge for trophies - Rice being better in the air and on defensive set pieces notwithstanding. I just simply do not see any argument that Rice is the better player now let alone was a better player 2 years ago when they were the same age.
 
mu4c_20le said:
The other poster was saying Rice starred in a PL team for years likes it's some achievement, I was just too lazy to pull that one sentence from the post.

As for opponents, how about holding psg to a draw twice
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Can't speak to River Plate last season, but this year's Benfica would fecking flatten West Ham.
 
Players like Fernandez almost never move in January. Whether or not anybody is willing to meet the release clause is largely irrelevant, its all about the player and agent maximizing their wages/bonuses while also creating the biggest possible market. The agent will spend the next 4-5 months taking wage/bonus offers, figuring out whether clubs like Real Madrid, City, or (unlikely) Barcelona are in the mix, and also seeing where other potential clubs like Chelsea, United, and Liverpool are going in terms of qualifying for CL and the trajectory of their projects. Then Enzo will decide in June/July.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
Well it's not solely a data-driven argument here - hence my point about the accolades they'd won at the same age. I live in Portugal and am married into a Benfica-supporting family with season tickets - so I've watched probably 90% of Enzo's minutes this year with a good chunk of that being in person. I wouldn't state so definitively that Enzo is better than Rice on a purely statistical basis if I hadn't watched both play regularly and also accounted for the very different levels of success both have enjoyed.

Casemiro is a terrible terrible example to compare Rice to by the way - he has never been a primary ball progressor given he spent so much time next to Kroos and Modric and yet still his numbers are significantly better compared to Rice.

Of course I don't think there definitively won't be an adjustment period for Enzo should he join the PL and that he'll progress linearly de rigueur, but he's already taken to Portuguese, Champions League, and World Cup football like a duck to water so there is reason for optimism.

It's unequivocal that he's a better passer, better finisher, better dribbler, better at resisting a press, and has accomplished more in high-leverage situations. These are all attributes that make him a better fit for a top club that wants to challenge for trophies - Rice being better in the air and on defensive set pieces notwithstanding. I just simply do not see any argument that Rice is the better player now let alone was a better player 2 years ago when they were the same age.
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I don't think my Casemiro example is a poor one by stretch my any imagination. You say Cas hasn't been the primary ball progressor at Madrid, well Rice has played in a team that simply don't bother with such things under Moyes.

The key point here is that you're writing off one for the other based off 4 months of data and a handful of watched matches in very recent times.

'Not on the same level' is madness to jump to based off of that testimony, particularly when you're apparently also choosing to ignore the respective roles they've played for their teams.

Again, they're both quality and I doubt either will end up at United. Depending on how flush Boehly feels, we'll probably be arguing about which one is more important to Chelsea's midfield in two years time instead.
 
He and Casemiero would form some midfield duo as this fellow is capable of both orchestrating as well as driving towards, based on what we saw at the C
 
Escobar said:
That is what happens when you don't buy them before their break out. He just joined Benfica, so they will milk it as good as possible after his WC displays
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Guarantee if we bought him, he’d have been just like Amad & Pellistri (played in youth team and loaned out) and we’d all complain how “incompetent” we are.
 
Adisa said:
These prices are insane.
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Yep, and this is the world we live in now because there’s so much tv and sponsor money in football, not to mention the oil money.

And some people on here haven’t woken up to the fact that we just can’t compete anymore without major Middle Eastern backing. Even our own revenue isn’t enough to sign more than one of these type of players a season, and even then it could be a massive flop.
 
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