NZ bowling good lengths and getting results whilst we were pissing around bowling bouncers to the tail costing more runs. Great to see old England back with the bat again, they were lucky in the first test as well with the dropped catches otherwise would have been a similar collapse.
English cricket thread
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
There was nothing to justify bowling first and batting last on this.
Just naïvety from Stokes. Don't ever do that in Australia or you will be even more fecked than in this test.
Just naïvety from Stokes. Don't ever do that in Australia or you will be even more fecked than in this test.
I think in general the pitches in NZ stay good for batting and so there's always slight advantage in bowling first. England bowled well yesterday and were slightly unlucky. The batting on the other hand...
It's a fair point about NZ pitches, but bowling first up is always a risk and something you do when you need to force a result, which England don't. You've also got to take into account your attack. England's bowlers have already done a lot of work this series and bowled last in the second test when NZ put up a bit of a fight. I felt that they looked tired then and their speeds were often in the 120s, as they have been here.
England's strength is in their middle order batting and the bowlers, being somewhat attritional and lacking in pace, are not really enforcers in these conditions. Maybe if you had an attack with Mark Wood and Jofra Archer you could feel confident putting NZ in.
In my opinion, Stokes has dropped a bit of a clanger and put his team in unnecessary strife. Even though NZ played and missed a bit on that first morning, I still would have preferred to have been batting.
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I never like winning the toss and choosing to bowl even though very occasionally it's probably the smart thing to do.
I always think unless it's exceptional circumstances if you win the toss you bat.
I always think unless it's exceptional circumstances if you win the toss you bat.
Yea. Even when conditions look favourable for bowling first, 70% of the time you should still bat.
Stokes has probably been our best bowler today and that makes that decision to bowl first look even worse. England have just looked flat and unmotivated.
They could have gone about this test differently and rung the changes a bit more, experimented.
Instead it has been one hell of a reality check. New Zealand are nowhere near Australia and India and they are going to win this by hundreds of runs.
They could have gone about this test differently and rung the changes a bit more, experimented.
Instead it has been one hell of a reality check. New Zealand are nowhere near Australia and India and they are going to win this by hundreds of runs.
You do realise New Zealand just whitewashed India 3-0 in India just in the previous series?
I’m not sure England are behind because they bowled first, they had NZ virtually all out but then decided to bowl unnecessary short pitch stuff to the the tail and Santner along with some of the tail took advantage.
They are behind because the batting yet again has been poor. You don’t win many matches being bowled out for 143. Question marks around Crawley at the top for example will need to be asked now.
They are behind because the batting yet again has been poor. You don’t win many matches being bowled out for 143. Question marks around Crawley at the top for example will need to be asked now.
Think because of the style of cricket there is overreaction everytime it goes badly for England. They are 2-0 up in NZ and so the criticism is way OTT. This has been a strange series because for the openers have struggled a lot but I have a lot of confidence in the two openers getting back to their best
I agree with this. England are definitely going to lose heavily more often than losing tight games. When the batting fails, it fails spectacularly.
England have still won the series so any major criticism is a bit silly.
Yes the batting today was rubbish but getting battered in a dead rubber after you've already won the series isn't the worst thing in the world is it?
Yes the batting today was rubbish but getting battered in a dead rubber after you've already won the series isn't the worst thing in the world is it?
Finally some proper prep for next winter, much more like it.
Just need one of the bowlers to pick up a side strain now.
Just need one of the bowlers to pick up a side strain now.
Genuinely was about to type as long as Root is in we've got a chance
130 all out coming up.
Hey fair play you were only 13 out, thank god series is won and Santner & Young too late to change that
Oh come on. India are a much better team than New Zealand are. Get real.
That series was a blip and India have quite recently won a series in Australia and improved in England.
Beating Australia and India remain the two bggest prizes for England in test cricket and is what we are ultimately judged on.
You just stated they are miles ahead and then I was pointed out how NZ so no, it’s not a case of ‘come on’. That whitewash by NZ is not to be underestimated and shows what a good team they are.
much better team lose 3-0 at home yeah alright,i'd say test cricket is pretty balanced atm.
Aye, no outstanding team at the minute.
Well I would have said India at home were the only outstanding side but you can't be losing 3-0 at home and claim that anymore.
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New Zealand's form since 2021 is mostly average besides that win against India. They've won 3 out of 13 test series (including the current one).
| New Zealand | 1-0 (1) | ||
| New Zealand in India Test Series | 2021/22 | India | 1-0 (2) |
| Bangladesh in New Zealand Test Series | 2021/22 | drawn | 1-1 (2) |
| South Africa in New Zealand Test Series | 2021/22 | drawn | 1-1 (2) |
| New Zealand in England Test Series | 2022 | England | 3-0 (3) |
| New Zealand in Pakistan Test Series | 2022/23 | drawn | 0-0 (2) |
| England in New Zealand Test Series | 2022/23 | drawn | 1-1 (2) |
| Sri Lanka in New Zealand Test Series | 2022/23 | New Zealand | 2-0 (2) |
| New Zealand in Bangladesh Test Series | 2023/24 | drawn | 1-1 (2) |
| Tangiwai Shield (South Africa in New Zealand) | 2023/24 | New Zealand | 2-0 (2) |
| Australia in New Zealand Test Series | 2023/24 | Australia | 2-0 (2) |
| New Zealand in Sri Lanka Test Series | 2024 | Sri Lanka | 2-0 (2) |
| New Zealand in India Test Series | 2024/25 | New Zealand | 3-0 (3) |
| Crowe-Thorpe Trophy (England in New Zealand) | 2024/25 | - | - |
The India series looks like an outlier here.
I am not doing New Zealand down, they've got some very good players, and they're always game and competitive, but they are not a top test side on current evidence. They were a great team, however, back in 2020, probably their best ever test side.
They've basically lost two in two tests at home and finished on a massive high thanks to Stokes's very strange decision to bowl first, when he didn't even need to, and England just being hopeless in dead rubbers. England won the first test by eight wickets and the second by over 300 runs, which are pretty wide margins.
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Stokes injured again it looks like.
Bit like Mount, the mind is willing but his body just can't cope with it anymore. I'm not sure he can really be trusted to bowl now. Seems to break down while bowling all the time.
Bit like Mount, the mind is willing but his body just can't cope with it anymore. I'm not sure he can really be trusted to bowl now. Seems to break down while bowling all the time.
Yeah a reminder about the size of challenge that awaits us next winter if it was needed
England were definitly lucky in the first test, you can play 100 more matches and no team will drop as many catches as NZ did. If they took just 1-2 of those then the result would have been very different. Ultimately I think England still have alot improvement to make and Stokes being injured isn''t going to help things.
Well you keep talking about the catches but England bowled out NZ for 254 in the second innings on a relatively flat wicket there so it's disingenuous to just talk about luck. Even in the second test England batted first on a green wicket and then bowled NZ out fir 125 on day. Nz got throughly outplayed in the first 2 games
With respect, I am not sure if it's luck if another team drops their catches. Particularly with England, due to the lack of pace in our attack over the years, we've always relied on catching as a mode of dismissal, so if we're off in the field, it's our fault. No one's ever sorry for us if we drop half a dozen in a day for that reason, which often did happen when we had a bunch of poor fielders like Tufnell and Mulally playing.
I can't remember exactly, but a lot of the chances in that first test were smacked pretty hard. There weren't any dollies. Pope also got out to a one in a million catch at gully when he was well set, and you could say that was mighty unlucky.
Ultimately, England outperformed New Zealand in the first test and won by eight wickets.
I think the degree to which England have been torn apart in this final test (which I will admit, is hugely embarrassing and takes a bit of the shine off the series win) has skewed perceptions of what went before. Before this test, I only felt that Henry had bowled well for NZ. O'Rourke definitely came to the party in this test and showed what he can do bowling a better line, but he was erratic before that.
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England will be keen to get bowled out just after lunch so they can get a round of golf in before an early flight tomorrow.
I was more referring to the sheer number of catches dropped, I can't remember the last time I saw a match with that many. Obviously England can't control that but that was alot of luck.
In terms of going forward, I'm quite negative about England's chances in the Ashes, I think we need a more potent bowling attack with some speed, there is a question mark now over Crawley, will Bethall continue at no 3?, will Smith come back in, Bashir seems to lack control and I'm worried he'll get taken apart in Australia and the ultimate question mark over Stokes. There also isn't any replacement at the moment and I don't think Woakes at 7 is an option. Maybe I'm quite pessimistic but that's just how I feel.
Incredible spell from Will O'Rourke. Some of the best fast bowling you will ever see
Morne Morkel
Crawley been at his worst of late but he has a good record against Australia. Largely because there's no one else beating down the door, I think he'll stay in. With the batsmen, I think Smith will return and take the gloves off Pope and Bethell will remain at three. Pope hasn't played that much against the Aussies but he has poor record against them over five tests.
You're absolutely right about the attack. It just won't be enough to trouble Australia without any genuine pace. The disappointing thing has been that it's not even 85-88 ish range. Some of the speeds have been clocking in the 70s, which is enough to give James Anderson reason to be asking questions about why he was asked to retire. Initially I thought Atkinson was brought in because he's supposed to be sharp, but he's been bowling in that same Ollie Robinson range.
I don't think Bashir will play beyond this winter tour and that Leach will gradually be phased back in as the leading spinner until someone with extra talent interests the selectors. He's bowled way too many four bowls. Stokes just cannot bowl anymore. It's tough to enforce because he's obviously captain, but he's clearly got a problem bracing his left leg.
The are obsessed with Bashir and invested alot of time in him. He will play every test pre Ashes tour and bar a big surprise will go.
I'm not saying I agree BTW. Just how I see them thinking.
And this is exactly what we did.
Definitely felt like they were told at lunch to stop pissing about and get themselves out ASAP.
All about Stokes in my opinion. If he now cannot bowl, England will have to drop Bashir in order to have four quicks.
In addition to that, Stokes didn't seem to want to bowl Bashir for much of that test match.
I can't believe they didn't try Tom Hartley after India more. He can bat, is a better fielder and would be able to offer more control.
It's strange the way he's vanished after taking a match-winning 7-fer and also showing ability with the bat, but then he hasn't played a lot of first class cricket and seems to be more effective in T20s. To me he's a bit of an unknown and not overly experienced in red ball cricket.
Bashir has some useful attributes but his lack of control has got worse. Plus he just doesn't contribute anything with the bat and in the field. There's potential to be a top class spinner, but he is being rushed and there is not enough output to justify keeping him the side.
The last test it felt like Stokes was reluctant to bowl to him. Leach is a decent spinner and might well have helped limit the damage England suffered.
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To be fair, Bashir isn't that experienced that much in red ball cricket either but England seem to have put all their eggs in his basket. As an off spinner he should be able to offer more control but doesn't seem able to do so.
Pope's dismissal very much the shot of someone heading straight to the Big Bash.
With the exception of Swann and to an extent Panesar, our spinners have been a much of a muchness for a while now. Moeen was the best of the more recent squads and he could probably still do a much better job than Bashir.
I know England are trying to be bold and risk-taking but it just feels like desperation selecting players who aren't even proven at county level.
Spinners will never get into the squad with the current county game if we did that. There needs to be changes to entice counties to play spinners,