English cricket thread

Nothing more than a casual cricket fan here. Just curious, how does Anderson stack up against the likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc.? His wickets tally is impressive, but do people attribute that to the favourable seam conditions over here? Or does he belong in the discussion of being amongst the greatest fast bowlers of all time?
 
Red Devil 26 said:
Nothing more than a casual cricket fan here. Just curious, how does Anderson stack up against the likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc.? His wickets tally is impressive, but do people attribute that to the favourable seam conditions over here? Or does he belong in the discussion of being amongst the greatest fast bowlers of all time?
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With a duke ball in England conditions probably none better and certainly walks into a dream XI for a test match in England.
But it’s his away record for me that stops him from being in a discussion for the GOAT to me you can’t avg over 32 away from home and expect to but put in the same category as the likes of McGrath, Stayn & Walsh

It would be like a batsman avg under 40 away from home and being talked about as one of the best ever it just wouldn’t sit right with me.
 
paulscholes18 said:
With a duke ball in England conditions probably none better and certainly walks into a dream XI for a test match in England.
But it’s his away record for me that stops him from being in a discussion for the GOAT to me you can’t avg over 32 away from home and expect to but put in the same category as the likes of McGrath, Stayn & Walsh

It would be like a batsman avg under 40 away from home and being talked about as one of the best ever it just wouldn’t sit right with me.
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Accurate.. GOAT swing bowler for me.

Are there any fast bowlers in English history who have great reputation but no one's seem them play because they played 100 yrs ago, who'd be considered better than Anderson? I know there's a Barnes with very low average..
 
Red Devil 26 said:
Nothing more than a casual cricket fan here. Just curious, how does Anderson stack up against the likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc.? His wickets tally is impressive, but do people attribute that to the favourable seam conditions over here? Or does he belong in the discussion of being amongst the greatest fast bowlers of all time?
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Anderson doesn't really stack up against them.

Steyn is by far the best fast bowler of this generation, and is right up there with those guys though (I personally rate him as the GOAT).
 
Red Devil 26 said:
Nothing more than a casual cricket fan here. Just curious, how does Anderson stack up against the likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc.? His wickets tally is impressive, but do people attribute that to the favourable seam conditions over here? Or does he belong in the discussion of being amongst the greatest fast bowlers of all time?
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If he wasn't English he wouldn't have all those wickets.... Great seam bowler in home conditions with amazing longevity & desire. He's not as good as those you've mentioned though & others can be added to the list.

He's a bit Giggs like, great player, but not the best Prem player ever.
 
It sounds harsh on Anderson but cricket is stacked full of all time great bowlers. Even the likes of Pollock and Walsh don't really stack up against the guys at the top, and there's no shame in it.

Anderson might just be the most skilled swing bowler of all time. His control with both the in-swing and the out-swinger was unprecedented. He could bowl an out-swinger for 5 deliveries and nail an inch perfect in-swinger on the 6th.
 
zing said:
Accurate.. GOAT swing bowler for me.

Are there any fast bowlers in English history who have great reputation but no one's seem them play because they played 100 yrs ago, who'd be considered better than Anderson? I know there's a Barnes with very low average..
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SF Barnes and Fred Trueman are the 'lesser' known bowlers with the best shouts. Frank Tyson and Harold Larwood are 2 bowlers who are acknowledged as the quickest of their eras but they don't really have much of a test record to allow themselves to be part of the discussion.
 
3-4 years ago I would have had Steyn on a whole another planet to Anderson. Still think Steyn is a tier above but the gap isn’t as big as it used to be.
 
The intangible question with Anderson is how much England's schedule has helped or hindered him.

There's no doubt it's given him the opportunity to take a lot of wickets, and would have fewer if he'd been from any other country, but I think it's vastly under-rated how downright impressive it is that Anderson has spent nearly 20 years of his life relentlessly performing at a high level with virtually no injuries or dip in form. The mental strength to be up for the fight for that length of time is insane (and we've seen players like Trott and Finn fall victim to it). Someone like Steyn for example may well be the better bowler, but given his recent injury record I reckon England's schedule would have killed him a lot earlier.
 
NinjaFletch said:
The intangible question with Anderson is how much England's schedule has helped or hindered him.

There's no doubt it's given him the opportunity to take a lot of wickets, and would have fewer if he'd been from any other country, but I think it's vastly under-rated how downright impressive it is that Anderson has spent nearly 20 years of his life relentlessly performing at a high level with virtually no injuries or dip in form. The mental strength to be up for the fight for that length of time is insane (and we've seen players like Trott and Finn fall victim to it). Someone like Steyn for example may well be the better bowler, but given his recent injury record I reckon England's schedule would have killed him a lot earlier.
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You're being a little bit generous with the 'nearly 20 years' but I completely agree. I think he did an interview earlier this summer about how the lockdown let him actually do proper fitness work and that's why his pace was up compared to the last few years. I remember watching Walsh and Ambrose in 2000 at the end of their careers and I don't think they were bowling as fast.
 
Sky have blatantly ripped off Westworld with their opening credits haven't they.

Not complaining though - Westworld's credits are amazing.
 
Red Devil 26 said:
Nothing more than a casual cricket fan here. Just curious, how does Anderson stack up against the likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc.? His wickets tally is impressive, but do people attribute that to the favourable seam conditions over here? Or does he belong in the discussion of being amongst the greatest fast bowlers of all time?
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Not for me no. He needs conditions to be in his favour to be truly effective, whereas truly great bowlers could do it on any surface.

If you look at his stats, he's played far more tests than any of the other quick bowlers with a comparable number of wickets.

I'd put him just below the greats, alongside the likes of Pollock, Flintoff and Gillespie. McGrath, Ambrose and Wasim all slightly ahead of him I reckon.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Not for me no. He needs conditions to be in his favour to be truly effective, whereas truly great bowlers could do it on any surface.

If you look at his stats, he's played far more tests than any of the other quick bowlers with a comparable number of wickets.

I'd put him just below the greats, alongside the likes of Pollock, Flintoff and Gillespie. McGrath, Ambrose and Wasim all slightly ahead of him I reckon.
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I’d agree with this. A fantastic bowler but I’d have him just below McGrath etc as the all time greats. Personally, I’d put Steyn above Jimmy, just unfortunate injuries took their toll on him.
 
ha_rooney said:
I’d agree with this. A fantastic bowler but I’d have him just below McGrath etc as the all time greats. Personally, I’d put Steyn above Jimmy, just unfortunate injuries took their toll on him.
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Yeah i had that same thought when writing the message.

An obvious comparison is with Ryan Giggs in football. A guy who spent a ridiculous amount of time excelling among the elite without ever challenging for the Balón D'Or.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Making the selectors' minds up for them here isn't he. Surely Foakes has to play in the next test (SL or India) and Buttler become a specialist batsman.
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I must have imagined those catches yesterday evening.
 
If I was picking an England team for the sub-continent, I'd go:

Sibley/Jennings
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Foakes (wk)
Curran
Bess/Ali
Leach
Rashid/Parkinson/Virdi

Bat deep, 2 quicks and 3 spinners.

The last spinner spot is tricky, ideally you want spinners who all bring something different but none of England's leggies are playing red ball cricket. I suspect the group England will have to pick from will be Bess, Ali, Leach and Virdi.

Jennings has a reputation as a spin specialist but it would be harsh to drop Sibley who has struggled against spin already in his test career. The only way Sibley is going to learn is by playing.

Root, Stokes, Pope and Buttler are England's best players of spin so one or two of them are going to have to bat out a little out of position instead of keeping Burns in who struggles vs. spin. Dropping Burns lets you choose a specialist keeper too.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
If I was picking an England team for the sub-continent, I'd go:

Sibley/Jennings
Crawley
Root
Stokes
Pope
Buttler
Foakes (wk)
Curran
Bess/Ali
Leach
Rashid/Parkinson/Virdi

Bat deep, 2 quicks and 3 spinners.

The last spinner spot is tricky, ideally you want spinners who all bring something different but none of England's leggies are playing red ball cricket. I suspect the group England will have to pick from will be Bess, Ali, Leach and Virdi.

Jennings has a reputation as a spin specialist but it would be harsh to drop Sibley who has struggled against spin already in his test career. The only way Sibley is going to learn is by playing.

Root, Stokes, Pope and Buttler are England's best players of spin so one or two of them are going to have to bat out a little out of position instead of keeping Burns in who struggles vs. spin. Dropping Burns lets you choose a specialist keeper too.
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Curran and Stokes as your only seamers?

One of the two 90mph bowlers has to play, and I may even pick Broad as well, and go with only two spinners.

The only way we're going to win in India is by taking early wickets with pace and then the spinners just performing to par. We don't have a good enough spin attack to rely on them, even in the sub-continent.
 
NinjaFletch said:
The intangible question with Anderson is how much England's schedule has helped or hindered him.

There's no doubt it's given him the opportunity to take a lot of wickets, and would have fewer if he'd been from any other country, but I think it's vastly under-rated how downright impressive it is that Anderson has spent nearly 20 years of his life relentlessly performing at a high level with virtually no injuries or dip in form. The mental strength to be up for the fight for that length of time is insane (and we've seen players like Trott and Finn fall victim to it). Someone like Steyn for example may well be the better bowler, but given his recent injury record I reckon England's schedule would have killed him a lot earlier.
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Agree with this completely. I also think Anderson will be looked as one of the greats in history in time to come because no other seam bowler will come close to matching what he has achieved in the future, largely because we will see less and less Test cricket to come.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Curran and Stokes as your only seamers?

One of the two 90mph bowlers has to play, and I may even pick Broad as well, and go with only two spinners.

The only way we're going to win in India is by taking early wickets with pace and then the spinners just performing to par. We don't have a good enough spin attack to rely on them, even in the sub-continent.
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You're right. Curran plays more because he's a fine player of spin. The balance is tricky because most teams who tour India don't get enough runs on the board, last time England went they were not so bad batting wise but hopeless with the ball.
 
Really enjoyed the Out Of Exile documentary.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
You're right. Curran plays more because he's a fine player of spin. The balance is tricky because most teams who tour India don't get enough runs on the board, last time England went they were not so bad batting wise but hopeless with the ball.
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Yeah. Our best chance is to do what we did in Pakistan at the start of Hussain's captaincy. Bat big and hope to induce a collapse here and there. All our spinners can do is dig in there and try and be economical really.
 
So what's going on with Jofra?

He started Test Cricket so brilliantly but ever since the Ashes he's just not looked a threat really.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
So what's going on with Jofra?

He started Test Cricket so brilliantly but ever since the Ashes he's just not looked a threat really.
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A mix of things I think. Injury, lack of confidence, not enough overs under the belt, not too sure what his role his. He's bowled some good spells this summer but not backed them up well enough. All part of the learning process.

Also with the exception of Jimmy with the new ball I don't think anyone has looked threatening on this pitch.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
A mix of things I think. Injury, lack of confidence, not enough overs under the belt, not too sure what his role his. He's bowled some good spells this summer but not backed them up well enough. All part of the learning process.

Also with the exception of Jimmy with the new ball I don't think anyone has looked threatening on this pitch.
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Yeah that all seems fair.

I still think he's a special talent, it's just after such an explosive start to his England career winning the World Cup and playing so well in the ashes I definitely expected more.

Like you said, hopefully all part of the learning curve.
 
This umpires call vs clipping the stump is causing lots of issues. Either it’s out or it isn’t.
Personally I don’t think it’s 100% certainty that Abid ball is hitting the stump: it should be not out.
 
I don’t think Anderson’s record will be broken in our lifetime. With 3 formats, I just can’t see anyone having the longevity as a fast bowler.
 
zing said:
I don’t think Anderson’s record will be broken in our lifetime. With 3 formats, I just can’t see anyone having the longevity as a fast bowler.
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On current form Broad has the best shot.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
A mix of things I think. Injury, lack of confidence, not enough overs under the belt, not too sure what his role his. He's bowled some good spells this summer but not backed them up well enough. All part of the learning process.

Also with the exception of Jimmy with the new ball I don't think anyone has looked threatening on this pitch.
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I think he’s poorly managed. I think they shouldn’t pick him if he doesn’t fit their plans. Picking him and asking him to bowl express pace when he doesn’t seem comfortable doing that seems not right. There is just too much written and spoken about him for a guy who has ten tests.
 
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