According to who? The bookies? I thought they had France down as the faves.
England Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
Yes. All bookmakers / including the Exchange (no national bias).
I don't really get the England can't win anything under Gareth angle.
I'm no Southgate apologist, his limitations slap you in the face - but we were a penalty shoot out away from winning one - if you're a few punts from 12 yards away from winning it you clearly can win it under him.
I'm no Southgate apologist, his limitations slap you in the face - but we were a penalty shoot out away from winning one - if you're a few punts from 12 yards away from winning it you clearly can win it under him.
Then who are you putting in at full back?
Well the point is due to his in game management you went from leading after 2 mins under one of the worst Italian teams in recent memory and still losing the whole thing, all the while having the home advantage and everything stacked in your favour. Only a manager as awful as Southgate could have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. It should never have gone to penalties, and a stronger manager would have seen Engalnd through as winners in normal time.
Meh, that seems a very harsh take to me. I don't really get worked up about England, only really follow them in tournaments as it's a laugh and the whole country is buzzing.
But in my lifetime you usually think England could win it if everything falls their way.
This time I feel like England will win it unless something goes against them (as can happen in tournament football - early red card, dodgy Pen etc).
Southgate isn't ideal, but he's not this huge weight being made out by some IMO.
Evidently not for Milan. He's decent, nothing more. A worse player than Maguire or Stones. You can't even talk him up for a high line 'cause he's not really good in it either
Yep, he's having a great season actually. As an attacking midfielder
Yup, which goes to show how thin England are in CM. He and Maddison are England's best creative passers by far, and Maddison is a bit too attacking to play CM
Forgot Ward-Prowse, can't say I know him. Loftus-Cheek is an attacking midfielder. And he's bad defensively
I reiterate, Tomori is worse than Maguire. By a lot. Konsa, Gomez are easily better, probably even Colwill and Branthwaithe despite their age
That point is based on a lot of hyperbole. ‘The worst Italian team in recent history’, what BS. That Italian team hadn’t lost a game since before covid started. Going into the Euros, they had won 11 of their last 12 games, letting in one single goal. They beat Netherlands and Poland to reach the Euros, their last game before the championship was a 4-0 drubbing of The Check Republik. They proceded to win all their group games, goal difference of 7-0, dispatched Austria, Belgium and Spain. They were a brilliant team led by Roberto Mancini, with key defensive players playing the football of their life (Chiellini, Bonucci, Donarumma).
It seems your need to deject everything to do with one man leads you to invent a lot of illogical BS to defend your one point, and I am oredicting your next line of defence that in fact all countries in the world (and their coaches) where also awful and the worst in recent history.
Yes, the worst Italian team in recent history given they're struggling to qualify for tournaments. Do you really think this Italian team is at the same level of ones we've seen in yesteryear? The Italy that didn't qualify for the 2018 and 2022 World Cup? Even qualifying for the 2024 wasn't smooth sailing for them, and they went through on a better H2H.
Most of the 'top' European footballing countries aren't as good as they were a generation or so ago with France being the obvious exception. England really should have won the Euros, especially given they were leading after 2 mins. It is down to Southgate's in-game management that they ended up as runners up.
No decent international side would have Pope in goal, for the same reason no top team has ever seriously looked at signing him despite him being absolutely outstanding in several areas of goalkeeping. He's terrible with the ball at his feet and you cannot get away with that in international football. Believe me, I've watched Pope very closely because he's nearly everything I'd want in a goalkeeper but he's so awkward with the ball at his feet he's unpickable in this England team. Pickford is generally reasonable in possession, with the exception being last night obviously. With Arsenal replacing Ramsdale with Raya and stunting any progress he was making, Pickford pretty much picks himself in goal despite being average at best because he doesn't panic with the ball at his feet.
The defensive suggestions you've made are basically flipping the defence around. That's not you being right necessarily or the current preference of Walker-Stones-Maguire-Shaw being wrong. The current preference needs Walker's pace to allow Stones to step up and to cover for Maguire's lack of pace. You're suggesting quicker centre halves in Tomori, Branthwaite, Colwill to cover for Alexander-Arnold spending half his life out of position- the problem there is that all three tend to play left centre back so you're realistically left with either wanting Stones in the team to step into midfield or TAA to be at right back. Or swapping both centre backs to the sides they are less comfortable in order to accommodate TAA. I was disappointed that Dunk was given an opportunity over Branthwaite last night, as I didn't think we would learn anything other than Dunk isn't good enough - which we saw, and I felt that Branthwaite is a player who potentially could take the shirt off Maguire in the current defensive set up. But three months before a tournament just isn't the time to rip up the defence; particularly during an international break where TAA isn't even available to look at.
Must admit I don't understand where the love for Pope has come from. He's been injured for months and may come back towards the end of the season. Pope hasn't played much for England but he has looked very uncomfortable with the ball at his feet for England.
Pickford fecked up for the first goal but he's been pretty reliable for England generally. I don't think there's any debate that he should be starting and even taking into account club form he's been the best English keeper too.
Ramsdale may have had a case but he wasn't good in the 2nd half of last season and is currently no.2 keeper at Arsenal.
Pickford fecked up for the first goal but he's been pretty reliable for England generally. I don't think there's any debate that he should be starting and even taking into account club form he's been the best English keeper too.
Ramsdale may have had a case but he wasn't good in the 2nd half of last season and is currently no.2 keeper at Arsenal.
There's some decent players, but who is genuinely pushing for a starting place?
I think the team is pretty much set. A midfield space with Bellingham/Rice, LB if Shaw isn't fit and LW are the only spots up for grabs. Injuries and form may change things, even mid-tournament form but the starting places are pretty stable.
Better than Tomori or Maguire?
Tomori
I think some places are set and deservedly so in regards to Kane, Rice, Stones, Bellingham and Saka. All are/will be some of the best players in their position at the Euros and in the world more or less. I don't think when it comes to players like them you need genuine players pushing to start because the starters are that good at what they do.
I think that also at CB people mention that England don't have much talent there but it's not true. Konsa, Branthwaite and Colwill are all having relatively strong seasons but they've been mostly shut out. Ben White could also play there but we've seen that option be shut off too. It's got to a place with England now where in more positions than not, the backup options of the backups are good and in some positions the talent you have is very good in terms of backup of the back up options (LW/CAM/RW/ST).
Fair enough.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/13101570/euro-2024-sky-sports-writers-pick-their-23-player-england-squad-for-germany#:~:text=Oliver%20Yew's%2023%2Dplayer%20squad%20for%20Euro%202024&text=Sky%20Sports'%20Oliver%20Yew%3A,gets%20him%20over%20the%20line.
Sky have an England squad selector option here, it's pretty tough to rattle it down to 23 but impossible to justify not taking Mainoo.
My choices (assuming everyone's fit):
Pickford
Rasmdale
Pope
Walker
TAA
Shaw
Trippier
Maguire
Stones
Colwill
Guehi
Rice
Mainoo
Bellingham
Saka
Foden
Gallagher
Palmer
Maddison
Bowen
Kane
Rashford
Toney
Sky have an England squad selector option here, it's pretty tough to rattle it down to 23 but impossible to justify not taking Mainoo.
My choices (assuming everyone's fit):
Pickford
Rasmdale
Pope
Walker
TAA
Shaw
Trippier
Maguire
Stones
Colwill
Guehi
Rice
Mainoo
Bellingham
Saka
Foden
Gallagher
Palmer
Maddison
Bowen
Kane
Rashford
Toney
It`s coming home.
Not a chance. There is no coach worth his salt who picks TAA just for his attacking prowess alone. Yet he can have defensive stability added to elite attacking from a Walker, Trippier or James.
Fair enough but I don't buy this at all! Remember the abuse Southgate got for playing 3-5-2? Supposedly it's "fielding 8/9 defender's" for example? That was one way TAA could be accomodated. As for a back 4. England isn't blesssed with top quality right sided cbs blessed with pace. Neither do they have the training ground time to understand the tactical intricasies of inverted fullbacks.
Frankly the most practical ways to use TAA for England is as a wingback in a back 3 formation or as the second pivot in a 4-2-3-1/4-3-3. That way you add his attacking ingenuity to the side without ever having to lose your defensive stability nor having to compensate for any defensive frailty he has with extra tactical instruction.
But Italy were the better team.
Previous managers actually picked EVERYONE's favorite players. 4-4-2 + 'becks, scholesy, Gerrard and fat frank" That is precisely why they flunked endlessly!
That is what was the actual "safety."
It's ironic Southgate has gone the opposite and picked his trusted and the best suited for the systems that have provably yielded the repeated deep runs in international tournaments for him and the side yet it's labeled as "too safe"
Italy were the better managed* team.
Don't bother. They will NEVER believe. They are convinced they have Brazil 1970 yet are coached by Ted Lasso
They were better on the ball individually and as a team. Unfortunately for them that ended with their attackers, as their forwards were pretty damn poor, rest of the team though were just very comfortable controlling the game.
An England squad of our best 23 players, under Klopp or Pep would walk the league.
I really don't get why Southgate might be questioning whether to take 3 strikers. Kane obvs. Toney IMO should go but he's hardly been given a chance to prove himself. Watkins IMO has done enough this season to show he can get goals, so I'd take him. Rashford will no doubt go by default, regardless of how bad he plays for the rest of the season. Only taking 2 of them is insane. I'd take the first 3 and tell Rashford to earn his place on form.
The talent in this team today is arguably better than the so-called golden generation. This one doesn't have a Rio or Terry at the back, but an on form Stones and Maguire can do a good enough job. Attacking-wise, we're overloaded with options. Still think we'll mess up somehow by putting in a damp 45-60 mins against someone in a KO game. Hope I'm wrong because this lot could win everything for the next 4-6 years.
You are confusing Italy of 2018 and 2022, with 2020-21. If you think the Italian world champions of 1982 were any better, you should have seen them in 81 and 83.
You disregard how that actual Italy team of Mancini played in 2019-21 up until the final vs England: - 25W 4D 0L 83-6 GD - eventually setting a new world record(!) for unbeaten games (37) on it’s way to becoming European Champions and third place in the Nations League.
You think drawing with such a team after an early lead is a proof of serious mismanagement, because of the form of the remains of that team two years later. How do you think football works?
World record holders and worst Italian team in recent history. I just had to read it again.
Wait am i seeing sanity in an England thread?!??!
Anyways, re TAA; didn't he miss the last 2 tournaments to injury?
Anyways, re TAA; didn't he miss the last 2 tournaments to injury?
We have a Ferrari and we're letting Mr Bean drive it.
No chance while he remains in charge, it's a huge waste.
No chance while he remains in charge, it's a huge waste.
Not under Southgate and not with that backline and keeper.
Pickford isn't really that good.
1 half decent CB in Stones.
No decent left back options when Shaw is out.
RB - has some good options
Southgate clearly has a problem with Wan-Bissaka, and is too prideful to walk it back. All this talk about AWB not being good enough on the ball is massively overstated, and we now have this fool playing Joe Gomez and Ezri Konsa at RB instead.
AWB should definitely be in the squad, there’s no way the best 1v1 defender should not be an asset at the top level.
AWB should definitely be in the squad, there’s no way the best 1v1 defender should not be an asset at the top level.
On paper and compared to the rest of the teams it does look like England is one of the best teams talent wise. If Kane and Bellingham are on form they should be the favorites alongside France.
Harry Maguire can play a high line??
This season:
Tomori 1.17 tackles won per 90
Stones 0.09 tackles won per 90 (playing a weird hybrid)
Maguire 0.85 tackles won per 90
Tackle win percentage highest out of the three at 68%, no surprise Maguire 50%
Tomori pass completion 91.1% per 90
Stones pass completion 92.6% per 90
Maguire pass completion 83.6% per 90
Not all bad for Harry - Joe Gomes 82%
Tomori also tops the attempted pass rate at 74 per 90, closest was stone
Tomori becuase he plays the most pass, has the most touches at 84 per 90, second is Gomes.
Not always hes played the right side of a middle three;
History of his positioning:
I think it shows that you actually don't know much IMO
Harvey Elliott can play in there and is playing well in the under 21
Loftus-Cheek covered above, Ward-Prowse I think equalled David Beckhams direct free-kick record which is handy in a tournament
Harry Maguire can play a high line??
This season:
Tomori 1.17 tackles won per 90
Stones 0.09 tackles won per 90 (playing a weird hybrid)
Maguire 0.85 tackles won per 90
Tackle win percentage highest out of the three at 68%, no surprise Maguire 50%
Tomori pass completion 91.1% per 90
Stones pass completion 92.6% per 90
Maguire pass completion 83.6% per 90
Not all bad for Harry - Joe Gomes 82%
Tomori also tops the attempted pass rate at 74 per 90, closest was stone
Tomori becuase he plays the most pass, has the most touches at 84 per 90, second is Gomes.
Not always hes played the right side of a middle three;
History of his positioning:
I think it shows that you actually don't know much IMO
Harvey Elliott can play in there and is playing well in the under 21
Loftus-Cheek covered above, Ward-Prowse I think equalled David Beckhams direct free-kick record which is handy in a tournament
All well and good, and I think Tomori could be the best partner for Stones, but he’s not playing against the same caliber of opponent as Maguire. Stats across different leagues aren’t worth a rub.
You are aware defensive stats like that are pointless right? Since they're not adjusted by possessions i.e. number of attacks faced? Aside from tackle win percentage, which still needs to be volume for context
Watch Milan games, ask Milan fans who watch him on a weekly basis. He has a high top level, and great pace, but makes too many mistakes to be considered anything more than decent, and isn't particularly good in a high line, despite the pace. He's only ever looked good in it briefly playing next to Kalulu - who is actually great in a high line - and otherwise very much a "fine for serie A" case. Basically relies entirely on his pace, with subpar positioning, anticipation and decision making
No, he's been really good since Pioli freed him from defensive duties and started using him as an attacking midfielder. This is about role, not positioning. Before that he was a decent player, nothing more. Same as he'd always been. And again, aside from 1vs1 on the ball, he's bad defensively
Is not a better creative passer than Alexander-Arnold
Already said I don't know enough of Ward-Prowse to comment. Loftus-Cheek is a limited one trick pony. He's a great ball carrier. Good at making runs into the box. Really strong in 1vs duels on the ball, both ways. A subpar passer. And a sieve in terms of positioning, intuition, anticipation, focus and workrate, defensively.
I was using it a reference of playing style more then purely stats, I think the top 3 or four in the EPL can beat most teams, but after there is a drop off like West Ham to Luton etc. Its more about style of play as well.