England Discussion

Hammondo said:
He's had a decent set of players, let's not over hype them now.
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It's better than decent. Sweden have "decent" players. England have players at the top end of the pitch that can play anywhere in Europe and enough across the pitch to support that.

You have to use what you have, no squad is perfect. But Southgate doesn't do that with his centre back mentality and people make excuses for him by picking at areas of the squad but every nation has their strengths and weaknesses.

He's also had good players for multiple opportunities, which makes winning f all a problem for how is reign is seen.
 
Abraxas said:
It's better than decent. Sweden have "decent" players. England have players at the top end of the pitch that can play anywhere in Europe and enough across the pitch to support that.

You have to use what you have, no squad is perfect. But Southgate doesn't do that with his centre back mentality and people make excuses for him by picking at areas of the squad but every nation has their strengths and weaknesses.

He's also had good players for multiple opportunities, which makes winning f all a problem for how is reign is seen.
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Sweden has a weak squad. We have had an amazing defence, probably the best, but it's heavily downhill after that.
 
Gio said:
Granted he has played well in the big tournaments and is particularly valuable at that level where it's more of a set-piece game. However, international managers often run into trouble when they persist with their declining stars from previous tournaments. We can see some of the signs with Maguire making mistakes that lead to goalscoring opportunities fairly frequently now for England. I don't think Southgate has done the succession planning well at all there given the number of low-risk games he has inbetween tournaments to bleed in the next generation. And it's pretty much too late now.

To be honest when I saw England's line-up it was clear they would struggle against Brazil. Same old broken midfield that gets found out against the big teams. And no vision to come up with fresh solutions to resolve this persistent issue. He has no ability to mirror the successful tactical principles that most of these players relish for their clubs.
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This is absolutely correct.

He doesn't use the qualifiers as a chance to test things in advance of the tournament or give new players chances so we go into the tournament relying on a lot of the same players and will probably fail in a similar way
 
Matt851 said:
I think we have the best set of players outside of france
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Yea maybe, on paper, it's a bad time for basically every other big nation.

But we over focus on the physical, like always, and miss out heavily on other things.
 
Abraxas said:
This is true, England aren't massive favourites.

But I think the wider point around Gareth Southgate is how many attempts has he had now? Usually it's 3 strikes and you're out.
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lucky timing. Covid pushed euro 2020 to 2021. You sack him after that the new guy has a year and change before Qatar. You sack him after Qatar the new guy has a year and a half before the Euros...and who were the candidates to replace him at that point?

That he hasn't resigned is weird and doesn't speak in his favour, mind you, unless the players begged him to stay on. The again, Löw won on attempt #4, and his parable wasn't too dissimilar
 
Hammondo said:
Sweden has a weak squad. We have had an amazing defence, probably the best, but it's heavily downhill after that.
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Weak relative to what? Not international football in general. They're kind of bog standard, decent as I'm saying.

England are not merely decent, which is the point, not by any logical comparison. They're in any discussion in terms of talent available alongside only a few other teams, especially within the context of the Euros and not a World Cup. So again, it comes down to the manager and getting the job done instead of finding ways to lose every time there's a possibility they could lose.

Otherwise his overall tenure is going down as a failure. Not because he fecked this one up specifically but because he would have pissed several opportunities up the wall, very presentable ones by the standards of major tournaments.
 
Abraxas said:
Weak relative to what? Not international football in general. They're kind of bog standard, decent as I'm saying.

England are not merely decent, which is the point, not by any logical comparison. They're in any discussion in terms of talent available alongside only a few other teams, especially within the context of the Euros and not a World Cup. So again, it comes down to the manager and getting the job done instead of finding ways to lose every time there's a possibility they could lose.

Otherwise his overall tenure is going down as a failure. Not because he fecked this one up specifically but because he would have pissed several opportunities up the wall, very presentable ones by the standards of major tournaments.
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Yes and no because we have some pretty big weaknesses, a very imbalanced squad.
 
Abraxas said:
So again, it comes down to the manager and getting the job done
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This is nonsense. Managers don't get the job done. Teams do. This isn't about Southgate - a manager can be the problem and the main reason a team won't win, but they can't be the main reason they do win. A manager can do everything right, get his team so ready and prepared they absolutely annihilate the opponent, only for the strikers to have a game from hell, miss 50 chances, and then they lose on penalties. Or the opponent's goalkeeper is Courtois on a June night in Paris and it doesn't matter how many chances you create and how well you shot, he's gonna stonewall you and you lose the game because you caught your breath for 10 seconds and that was all the opening your opponent needed to rip our your heart and eat it

Otherwise his overall tenure is going down as a failure.
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Now on the other hand, this is true
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Poor. Try harder.
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I'm not trying anything. The fact that you think I'm "trying" is a glaring show of ignorance.

I'm Scottish. I should know. If you disagree with me then fine.

Let's flip it, make Scotland the hub of the United Kingdiom. Make Holyrood the UK Parliament, let the Scottish government handle the finances and give them carte blanche to make all the decisions for the other three nations.

Let England be lead by a political party for 60+ years that you didn't vote for. Leave the EU, even though you voted to remain.

Let Scotland steal your oil, to the tune of £1.3 trillion and then let Scotland close your only oil refinery.

Make English tv full of Scottish shows, show Scotland games on free-to-air tv, leaving English people have to pay a subscription to watch England games.

How would you feel? Would you feel that Scotland were the patriarch of the United Kingdom and England were a colony? You certainly wouldn't feel like it was a union of equals.
 
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Hammondo said:
Yes and no because we have some pretty big weaknesses, a very imbalanced squad.
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Which is not what you said initially. There are some genuine world class players in thevsquad, and very good players that make up the rest. A bit of lack of cover for certain positions, but "very imbalanced" is excessive, unless you consider that every squad is "very imbalanced" which is pretty much the case. England have the best set of players along with France (maybe France slightly edges it), and that's not overhyping anything, it's pretty factual.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Which is not what you said initially. There are some genuine world class players in thevsquad, and very good players that make up the rest. A bit of lack of cover for certain positions, but "very imbalanced" is excessive, unless you consider that every squad is "very imbalanced" which is pretty much the case. England have the best set of players along with France (maybe France slightly edges it), and that's not overhyping anything, it's pretty factual.
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But the quality of a squad is about the squad as a whole, not just the individuals. If a squad is unbalanced then that's a negative for the squad. I would say England is pretty damn unbalanced, like every England squad.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Not sure about that, Shaw is definitely one of Southgates favourites - if he's fit, he'll start.
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His comments recently feel like it's touch and go. He certainly doesn't believe he will be fit enough to play every game in the Euros so he's probably weighing up if he's going to take him at all. Depends how much Shaw plays again this season really I guess.
 
TheBatman said:
I'm not trying anything. The fact that you think I'm "trying" is a glaring show of ignorance.

I'm Scottish. I should know. If you disagree with me then fine.

Let's flip it, make Scotland the hub of the United Kingdiom. Make Holyrood the UK Parliament, let the Scottish government handle the finances and give them carte blanche to make all the decisions for the other three nations.

Let England be lead by a political party for 60+ years that you didn't vote for. Leave the EU, even though you voted to remain.

Let Scotland steal your oil, to the tune of £1.3 trillion and then let Scotland close your only oil refinery.

Make English tv full of Scottish shows, show Scotland games on free-to-air tv, leaving English people have to pay a subscription to watch England games.

How would you feel? Would you feel that Scotland were the patriarch of the United Kingdom and England were a colony? You certainly wouldn't feel like it was a union of equals.
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It still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do think that Scotland and Wales are regions of England, and you might also want to research the reasons the union was created in the first place
 
Red in STL said:
It still doesn't change the fact that a lot of people do think that Scotland and Wales are regions of England, and you might also want to research the reasons the union was created in the first place
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I know they do. That's the point I was making.

Reasons? I know about the bribery.

I also know that the vast majority of Scots were against the union and there were riots and it was verging on an uprising.

Regardless, it's 2024. It's time for all four nations to go their separate ways.

It's funny, since the 70s (ironically when the Oil was discovered) we were told that Scotland was subsidised by England. You have to wonder why no English MP or party has ever called for English independence if Scotland was such a burden. :p
 
TheBatman said:
I know they do. That's the point I was making.

Reasons? I know about the bribery.

I also know that the vast majority of Scots were against the union and there were riots and it was verging on an uprising.

Regardless, it's 2024. It's time for all four nations to go their separate ways.

It's funny, since the 70s (ironically when the Oil was discovered) we were told that Scotland was subsidised by England. You have to wonder why no English MP or party has ever called for English independence if Scotland was such a burden. :p
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IMO that would be a disaster for Scotland and for Wales as well, but ultimately it's up to the people
 
I agree with the majority that Southgate's just not a good enough manager for such a good stable of players any more. And his problems at CB are entirely his own fault - he could have spent the whole year blooding Colwill or Branthwaite and he can only blame himself that he's still so reliant on Maguire, and having to suddenly call up the likes of Dunk.

That said, I do feel for him with the timing of some of the players who have emerged in other positions. Right now, you could be forgiven for wondering why we don't play a much more possession-oriented dominant style given the midfielders and forwards we have. But the speed at which Bellingham has gone from 'an option' to 'our best player' is frightening, and Mainoo's trajectory looks like it might be even more rapid.

It's easy to forget that in 2018 Southgate took us to the WC with these players available in CM:
Eric Dier
Jesse Lingard
Jordan Henderson
Dele Alli
Ruben Loftus-Cheek

That's gradually improved but think how pathetically grateful we were to be able to field Kalvin Phillips when he emerged.
 
"And here it is, after all the wait and speculation, England's starting XI for their first match of Euro 2024..."

Pickford

Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier

Rice
Henderson
Phillips

Sterling
Kane
Grealish
 
groovyalbert said:
"And here it is, after all the wait and speculation, England's starting XI for their first match of Euro 2024..."

Pickford

Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier

Rice
Henderson
Phillips

Sterling
Kane
Grealish
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I’d only have 3 of those players in an England side if I was picking it. 7 of them wouldn’t even make the bench.

God I love Southgate. for you guys
 
Pope is a better keeper than Pickford. A better coach than Southgate finds a way to make Trent work at RB. Tomori, Branthwaite, Colwill are all better options at CB that he has ignored.

Front 6 picks itself at this stage. He needs to get his back 5 right if your boys are going to perform as ye should at the Euros.
 
diarm said:
Pope is a better keeper than Pickford. A better coach than Southgate finds a way to make Trent work at RB. Tomori, Branthwaite, Colwill are all better options at CB that he has ignored.

Front 6 picks itself at this stage. He needs to get his back 5 right if your boys are going to perform as ye should at the Euros.
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Tomori not in the squad is actually nuts.
 
diarm said:
Pope is a better keeper than Pickford. A better coach than Southgate finds a way to make Trent work at RB. .......
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No international coach makes Trent Work at right back. He just isn't good enough defensively and all the other options are too attackers and Superior defenders. . It should not matter neither because Trent can definitely work in center midfield
 
Trent is not a good midfielder and certainly shouldn’t start. Having a good long pass and being a good passer are also very different things, he hasn’t got the passing range for central midfield and England will get exposed if Southgate tries to go that way.
 
Brightonian said:
I agree with the majority that Southgate's just not a good enough manager for such a good stable of players any more. And his problems at CB are entirely his own fault - he could have spent the whole year blooding Colwill or Branthwaite and he can only blame himself that he's still so reliant on Maguire, and having to suddenly call up the likes of Dunk.
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Two things: I don't get why Maguire gets singled out but no mention is ever made of Stones.

And, the previous IT breaks were qualifiers. Which I believe Southgate did use to make up his mind about Konsa and Gomez, no?. 8 games, with Italy, Ukraine and a bunch of fodder. He could have been more proactive I agree, but it's not like there were that many chances to do it, and do you want to risk them with euro qualification on the line? It's not like those 2 have been playing at top level for years

Right now, you could be forgiven for wondering why we don't play a much more possession-oriented dominant style given the midfielders and forwards we have.
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The only guy who is at his best playing a possession-oriented style is Foden. Maybe Mainoo, too early to tell and he doesn't play for a ball dominant team atm
diarm said:
A better coach than Southgate finds a way to make Trent work at RB.
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I want to agree but I'm not so sure. Especially when until Mainoo showed up TAA represented England's best option in midifield

Tomori,
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M16Red said:
Tomori not in the squad is actually nuts.
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:lol: :lol: :lol: don't talk about a player you don't know
 
England under Southgate is experiencing the same issue of ole at united, the good vibes can only carry you so far, we look like we are going backwards now despite an even better pool of players to pick from but southgate is guilty of the same thing his predecessors were of going safe and choosing the same old favourite players
 
Lee565 said:
England under Southgate is experiencing the same issue of ole at united, the good vibes can only carry you so far, we look like we are going backwards now despite an even better pool of players to pick from but southgate is guilty of the same thing his predecessors were of going safe and choosing the same old favourite players
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Which players is he not picking that he should be, and who are the "old favourites"?

It's only really at Centre back as far as I can see (and that's rightly nailed on to be Stones & Maguire).
 
Lee565 said:
England under Southgate is experiencing the same issue of ole at united, the good vibes can only carry you so far, we look like we are going backwards now despite an even better pool of players to pick from but southgate is guilty of the same thing his predecessors were of going safe and choosing the same old favourite players
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The difference is this isn't club football and the vibes only have to work for 7 games
 
Friendlies and even qualifiers are more of an inconvenience to most teams, making any real judgments a waste of time.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
No international coach makes Trent Work at right back. He just isn't good enough defensively and all the other options are too attackers and Superior defenders. . It should not matter neither because Trent can definitely work in center midfield
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I don't agree. Trent has his defensive issues, but a more courageous coach weighs up his attacking output and takes that risk.

When Walker and Trippier were at their peak, it was a different discussion. But now, with neither of them the players they were, you pick a RCB with genuine pace, and use Trent as a RWB who joins the midfield and allows one of Rice or Mainoo to attack more, or gets up the flank himself while Shaw tucks back as almost a third CB as needed.
 
giorno said:
Two things: I don't get why Maguire gets singled out but no mention is ever made of Stones.

And, the previous IT breaks were qualifiers. Which I believe Southgate did use to make up his mind about Konsa and Gomez, no?. 8 games, with Italy, Ukraine and a bunch of fodder. He could have been more proactive I agree, but it's not like there were that many chances to do it, and do you want to risk them with euro qualification on the line? It's not like those 2 have been playing at top level for years


The only guy who is at his best playing a possession-oriented style is Foden. Maybe Mainoo, too early to tell and he doesn't play for a ball dominant team atm

I want to agree but I'm not so sure. Especially when until Mainoo showed up TAA represented England's best option in midifield



:lol: :lol: :lol: don't talk about a player you don't know
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Don't talk about a poster you don't know, I've watched him play for years, actually caught my eye in the under 20 championship with Kyle Walker-Peters.

Both him and Loftus-Cheek stood out when I watched them last - Loftus was playing very very well.

TAA your having a laugh, he's not played MF officially all season. Ward-Prowse or Loftus-Cheek for me as the extra to the combo played yesterday - remember Rice and Bellingham don't know Mainoo.
 
England won't win anything with Southgate.
 
England have a good team if everyone's fit. But the depth isn't impressive at all. That's where France clearly have the advantage.

Pope/Ramsdale
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Shaw

Rice
Mainoo
Bellingham

Saka
Kane
Foden

Rashford is a better fit for the team when Kane is playing, but he'll be lucky to get in the squad with his form. Foden isn't ideal for that position, and if Shaw isn't fit then that left side will be a big problem.

Southgate will balls it up anyway.
 
Flying high said:
England have a good team if everyone's fit. But the depth isn't impressive at all. That's where France clearly have the advantage.
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I still think France have an edge but disagree that the depth of England isn't impressive. It's arguably the best it's ever been.
 
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