England Discussion

I'm pretty set on at least 8 players for the Euros starting 11.

Kane
Saka
Bellingham
Rice
Shaw
Stones
Walker
Pickford

I'd have Mainoo in that midfield over all other options, but that might be my United bias telling.

Interestingly (for me at least) the 3 spots missing could all realistically be filled by United players. Rashford, Mainoo and Maguire.

I'd say the only glaring omission is Foden who I'd love to get in the side, but just don't see what he adds that isn't already present in spades with Kane, Saka and Bellingham
 
Rojofiam said:
Southgate won't, and shouldn't start phasing out key players when a major international tournament is starting in 3 months.
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But that's one of the problems he has made for himself with Maguire. His persistence in those lows and when he's not even been playing has hampered the development of many others like Tomori and is now going to hamper the development of the next cohort like Colwill and Branthwaite.
 
Mogget said:
It's not elaborate at all, it's fairly blatant
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I do mean what I say though :D

The England manager - in this case Southgate - falls right into that intersection between normal fan delusion, the british cult of the manager, and my own itch for needling people about the first 2 :D

Just so we are clear: International football is 30% call ups/talent, 30% vibes, 30% chance, 5% fitness and 5% mental strenght

Southgate isn't holding england back anymore than Löw had been with Germany, or Deschamps with France, etc. Once the tournament starts you could replace him on the bench for games with a puppet or with Klopp and it would barely make any difference most of the time
 
SilentWitness said:
But that's one of the problems he has made for himself with Maguire. His persistence in those lows and when he's not even been playing has hampered the development of many others like Tomori and is now going to hamper the development of the next cohort like Colwill and Branthwaite.
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But Maguire isn't some dud either, especially for England he's done very well
 
Rojofiam said:
But Maguire isn't some dud either, especially for England he's done very well
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He's pretty much always exposed against the top sides. Take the France game in the WC. He lost Giroud moments before the goal that meant Pickford has to make a good save to deny a goal but then Maguire loses Giroud again for the header that leads to the goal.

He's done well against sides that England should be doing well anyway. He's not impressed to a level so much that he's irreplaceable or of a quality that is irreplaceable like Kane for example.

Friendlies and the Nations League might be duds to others but they're a way of showcasing how a team will develop and where potential weaknesses are and against Germany in the Nations League and against Brazil last night, Maguire made multiple mistakes that led to goals or big chances. Again though, the problem is he gets the chance in tournaments to play against Panama or Tunisia and do well because he keeps getting picked in friendlies and the Nations League instead of giving an opportunity for another defender with more potential to grow and develop and take England to the next level and make them more solid and ready to beat those bigger sides.

It's a consistent cycle.
 
Wasn't Giroud supposed to have been marked by Stones for that goal?

Maguire is making plenty of sloppy errors currently so does feel he'll be exposed in the summer and that will pretty much be it for his England career.
 
FootballHQ said:
Wasn't Giroud supposed to have been marked by Stones for that goal?

Maguire is making plenty of sloppy errors currently so does feel he'll be exposed in the summer and that will pretty much be it for his England career.
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It was, Maguire had to cover and was never getting there if I remember rightly. Maguire was harshly blamed.
 
SilentWitness said:
He's done well against sides that England should be doing well anyway. He's not impressed to a level so much that he's irreplaceable or of a quality that is irreplaceable like Kane for example.
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Yes, but England haven't had a wealth of riches in his role either. There's hardly any english CBs at club level you'd look at and recognize as the obvious bedrock for England's defence. Maguire earned that on the pitch, for England. If we're going down this route, why aren't you making this argument about Stones - the guy Maguire has consistently outperformed in an England shirt?

Friendlies and the Nations League might be duds to others but they're a way of showcasing how a team will develop and where potential weaknesses are
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Yes, they are meant to be testing grounds, and just like with summer friendlies, you use them to evaluate potential problems/solutions going forward. Rarely you use them to experiment changing the parts that worked fine until then

Again though, the problem is he gets the chance in tournaments to play against Panama or Tunisia and do well because he keeps getting picked in friendlies and the Nations League instead of giving an opportunity for another defender with more potential to grow and develop and take England to the next level and make them more solid and ready to beat those bigger sides.
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He gets picked because he performed when it mattered, making himself a reference for the team, and so as long as there's the reasonable belief that he will keep performing when it counts, the manager will stick by him. 3 tournaments worth of evidence and it's not like England's defence hasn't been the team's strongest asset in all 3.

Chicken and egg. Your answer will be that Southgate should focus on maximizing the team's strenghts instead of hiding its flaws. I disagree, in the sense that I don't think he's not maximising the team's strenghts, either. This is not an England team meant to play like City (and they can't play like Liverpool). It's a team made for transition. Maybe England could try and tempt Conte after the Euros
 
giorno said:
I do mean what I say though :D

The England manager - in this case Southgate - falls right into that intersection between normal fan delusion, the british cult of the manager, and my own itch for needling people about the first 2 :D

Just so we are clear: International football is 30% call ups/talent, 30% vibes, 30% chance, 5% fitness and 5% mental strenght

Southgate isn't holding england back anymore than Löw had been with Germany, or Deschamps with France, etc. Once the tournament starts you could replace him on the bench for games with a puppet or with Klopp and it would barely make any difference most of the time
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It depends what you mean by "holding back". I don't think it's a stretch to say this England team could be performing better with a better manager than Southgate, even under the constraints of international football.

The talent of the manager definitely plays a part in how well teams do at tournaments otherwise why would national teams even bother with them?
 
Marwood said:
Henderson, Phillips and Gallagher are fighting for a spot because of Southgate. Those options aren't some immovable part of the England set up that Southgate has no option but to play.
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Really? Who are the other options? James Ward-Prowse, Joe Garner and Sean Longstaff?

Or TAA who isn't even a midfielder?

It wasn't that long ago that Southgate said that he'll be forced to pick players from the championship, as the EPL is loaded with foreigners.

lex talionis said:
Agreed, completely, however on the point the Henderson/Phillips/Gallagher all competing for the same position it does seem likely that Southgate will turn to Mainoo. And when he does, England’s midfield will dramatically improve.
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I don't know if Mainoo is the answer. Don't get me wrong, he looks to be a great talent, but more he's more In the Paul Ince mould than the Michael Carrick.

He looks to me like he's a dynamic, explosive risk taker, rather than a metronome.
 
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Mogget said:
It depends what you mean by "holding back". I don't think it's a stretch to say this England team could be performing better with a better manager than Southgate, even under the constraints of international football.

The talent of the manager definitely plays a part in how well teams do at tournaments otherwise why would national teams even bother with them?
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what @giorno has done with southgate is dig himself a huge hole that he has been consistently trying to dig himself up and out of.
 
Mogget said:
It depends what you mean by "holding back". I don't think it's a stretch to say this England team could be performing better with a better manager than Southgate, even under the constraints of international football.
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I don't disagree, I just find that notion too abstract to take seriously. England is doing well. Even that's not as automatic as people seem to think. The "good vibes" he brought are in fact the area the manager has the greatest influence on in international football and Southgate's seemingly got that locked down like nobody's business. Next is call ups, and again I fail to see how a different manager could have done appreciably better. Fitness has been good, mental strenght is ultimately not something a manager can influence much. The rest is mostly chance.

It's actually not at all easy to do much better than Southgate's done. Even with all that talent. And the kind of managers you'd bet your family on doing better aren't going to take the job anytime soon

The talent of the manager definitely plays a part in how well teams do at tournaments otherwise why would national teams even bother with them?
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It does, but the talent of international managers mostly is about calling the right players, and creating the right environment. Things like tactics and game management don't really matter 90% of the time
 
giorno said:
I don't disagree, I just find that notion too abstract to take seriously. England is doing well. Even that's not as automatic as people seem to think. The "good vibes" he brought are in fact the area the manager has the greatest influence on in international football and Southgate's seemingly got that locked down like nobody's business. Next is call ups, and again I fail to see how a different manager could have done appreciably better. Fitness has been good, mental strenght is ultimately not something a manager can influence much. The rest is mostly chance.

It's actually not at all easy to do much better than Southgate's done. Even with all that talent. And the kind of managers you'd bet your family on doing better aren't going to take the job anytime soon


It does, but the talent of international managers mostly is about calling the right players, and creating the right environment. Things like tactics and game management don't really matter 90% of the time
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Surely you’re wumming now? Surely?

“It does, but the talent of international managers mostly is about calling the right players, and creating the right environment.

Things like tactics and game management don't really matter 90% of the time”
 
Rooney in Paris said:
I hope Southgate manages Real Madrid one day, that's all giorno deserves
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I'd love to see Southgate's reaction to the fact that, somewhere, a random Italian who supports a Spanish club posting on an Irish forum dedicated to an English team is defending him night and day. I think it'd warm his heart.
 
He is definitely leaving after the Euros. It just all depends where the vest wants to go. Both Real Madrid or united would be ideal.
 
It was also nice of Bellingham to report for England duty in his Real Madrid jersey. The lad seemed more at home with his Brazilian club mates than his English teammates.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Surely you’re wumming now? Surely?

“It does, but the talent of international managers mostly is about calling the right players, and creating the right environment.

Things like tactics and game management don't really matter 90% of the time”
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No. International football is not that deep. It's 7 games. Talent, fitness, mental strenght and luck are the things that will significantly impact results, most of the time. In game tactics and subs can have an impact, but that's situational. You realistically could go through an entire tournament, and win it, without those ever really mattering
 
TheBatman said:
Really? Who are the other options? James Ward-Prowse, Joe Garner and Sean Longstaff?

Or TAA who isn't even a midfielder?

It wasn't that long ago that Southgate said that he'll be forced to pick players from the championship, as the EPL is loaded with foreigners.
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Well yeah I think all those would be interesting options well worth a look. Mainly because they can pass a ball if nothing else.

Garner is better than Phillips and Gallagher for sure.
 
TheBatman said:
I don't know if Mainoo is the answer. Don't get me wrong, he looks to be a great talent, but more he's more In the Paul Ince mould than the Michael Carrick.

He looks to me like he's a dynamic, explosive risk taker, rather than a metronome.
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Your assessment concerns me in no way. I see Mainoo as having the ability to be both a productive risk taker and a metronome, as circumstances require. Early days and we all know about potential not realized, but we are witnessing the budding of an United and England legend.
 
Based on what we've seen of him so far, I wouldn't call him a 'metronome' in the Carrick/Busquets mould, but I do think rhythm and possession are the key things he brings, not explosiveness or penetration.

Of course it's the gifs of some of his dribbles and his goal against Wolves that have gone viral. But it's his press-resistance, calm head, high quality passing and decision-making which have had the biggest impact on games - the stuff he does over and over again, and often deeper on the pitch. Against Liverpool his key contribution wasn't the couple of penetrating dribbles, it was the hatfull of really key interceptions followed by well-chosen passes.

If there's a player he's probably best suited to emulate, style-wise, I reckon it's Xavi. Metronomic, yes, but in the sense of allowing a high-possession team who are used to camping around the opposition's box to maintain possession so high up the pitch, and move the ball fast enough to create openings in a static defensive block.

However it's unlikely we'll be the right team to let him do that, because we don't dominate possession. So I think it's sensible to look at a Modric type. A bit of a hybrid, with the capacity to set rhythm, drop deep, win the ball, start moves, keep the ball. But also mixing that up with moments of penetration, creativity and goal threat in every game too. Thriving on transitions but also capitalising on spells of possession when they happen.
 
England is the Country Version of post Sir Alex United. England appoints either past it or Average Managers.

One would expect a country of England's status in football to hire top Managers.After Southgate,they will still hire another average/past it Manager
 
redDNA said:
England is the Country Version of post Sir Alex United. England appoints either past it or Average Managers.

One would expect a country of England's status in football to hire top Managers.After Southgate,they will still hire another average/past it Manager
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England has hired top managers before, and failed miserably with them
 
Given the abundance of talent it does seem like England are going to waste it on a poor manager because he seems nice and maybe reads the Guardian.

QF euro knockout lost against the Germans incoming.
 
He needs to win the euros to have any chance of a decent club job. I think Eddie Howe would get more out of this team and probably play better football.
 
What's his record against the top teams in competitive football? Seems like he's good at beating the easy teams but whenever tactics and strategy are required we fumble.
 
RedSky said:
What's his record against the top teams in competitive football? Seems like he's good at beating the easy teams but whenever tactics and strategy are required we fumble.
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Against top 10 sides he's won 8, drew 9 and lost 12 i think from an article I read, so 28% win percentage.

In the big comps he lost against France and Italy and beat Denmark (I think they were a top 10 ranked side in the world in this euros) Lost against Croatia, Belgium (twice) in WC 2018, beat Germany in euro 2020.

So I suppose 2 wins and 5 losses in big comps?
 
redDNA said:
Can you please mention top any recent one,Capello was past it before becoming england manager
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Define who a top manager is, who isn't past it and would actually accept the job?
 
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