Ederson - Atalanta Midfielder

Feck me if we signed both I'd actually be excited for our games again. Not going to happen without at least two or three departures though.
 
Blood Mage said:
Feck me if we signed both I'd actually be excited for our games again. Not going to happen without at least two or three departures though.
Click to expand...

Yeah think we are putting things in place to sign him next summer if Casemiro leaves
 
Bondi77 said:
Were you following Utd when we pursued Frenkie and ended up getting Casemiro?
Click to expand...

He was a pure panic buy under the previous regime because we got off to a bad start and wasted most of the window chasing a player that clearly didn’t want to leave his club. It’s now looked back on as a very poor decision, I’d expect INEOS to be a lot smarter in the market which so far they’ve shown to be.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was a pure panic buy under the previous regime because we got off to a bad start and wasted most of the window chasing a player that clearly didn’t want to leave his club. It’s now looked back on as a very poor decision, I’d expect INEOS to be a lot smarter in the market which so far they’ve shown to be.
Click to expand...

That’s not true.

Antony was more the panic buy. There were quotes from Murtough nodding to this about bringing forward the budget for Antony and other well sourced respected articles confirming this. Hence needing to pay over the odds so late in the window because it gave Ajax no time to get a replacement.

The De Jong money went on Antony. The club wanted a right winger but this was less a priority than central mid.

That changed when De Jong didn’t happen.
 
The Midnight Rambler said:
That’s not true.

Antony was more the panic buy. There were quotes from Murtough nodding to this about bringing forward the budget for Antony and other well sourced respected articles confirming this. Hence needing to pay over the odds so late in the window because it gave Ajax no time to get a replacement.

The De Jong money went on Antony. The club wanted a right winger but this was less a priority than central mid.

That changed when De Jong didn’t happen.
Click to expand...

That doesn’t mean Casemiro wasn’t also a panic buy. We were desperate for a midfielder and after wasting the majority of the window chasing an unattainable player we decided to spend £70m and a 30yr old. Does that sound like a well thought out plan? No, it stinks of pure panic, an impulse buy.
 
What if and a massive What if Ugarte on loan with agreement to buy and buy Ederson outright this summer. That would be tide turning. But unfortunately pretty unlikely
 
kirk buttercup said:
What if and a massive What if Ugarte on loan with agreement to buy and buy Ederson outright this summer. That would be tide turning. But unfortunately pretty unlikely
Click to expand...
This would be more likely than anything. Ederson and Ugarte are completely different players. The Ugarte transfer feels like the De Ligt transfer in it's inevitability.
 
Ederson and Ugarte are both #6s. We are not signing both, its either/or. Seems we have chosen Ugarte, so we gotta move on from Ederson. Hope Liverpool dont swoop in for this guy.
 
Judas said:
Going to need a better source if I'm going to believe that.
Click to expand...
CallyRed said:
Not even Romano follows this chap.
Click to expand...
PoTMS said:
Pedulla is about as reliable as indykaila.
Click to expand...

Is this entirely true these days though?

If I remember correctly, Pedulla was early and pretty on the money about the Onana, Amrabat and Højlund transfers last year. Seems like he’s been fairly good lately on Serie A to Man Utd at least. One of them from Atalanta even.
 
Grande said:
Is this entirely true these days though?

If I remember correctly, Pedulla was early and pretty on the money about the Onana, Amrabat and Højlund transfers last year. Seems like he’s been fairly good lately on Serie A to Man Utd at least. One of them from Atalanta even.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I wouldn't be writing him off so easily for Atalanta news, or for stuff from Serie A.
 
Highfather_24 said:
Ederson and Ugarte are both #6s. We are not signing both, its either/or. Seems we have chosen Ugarte, so we gotta move on from Ederson. Hope Liverpool dont swoop in for this guy.
Click to expand...

Dont think thats true of Ederson as he gets forward a lot which is why he scored 6 goals all from inside the box. He tends to play with players like De Roon who sit while he can use his limitless energy and legs to get forward ala McTom. Koopemeiners is the AM and then Ederson joins from deeper. He attacks as much or more than Mainoo
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was a pure panic buy under the previous regime because we got off to a bad start and wasted most of the window chasing a player that clearly didn’t want to leave his club. It’s now looked back on as a very poor decision, I’d expect INEOS to be a lot smarter in the market which so far they’ve shown to be.
Click to expand...

It was a marquee signing as with Varane before him
 
Ekeke said:
It was a marquee signing as with Varane before him
Click to expand...

He was a marquee signing because of the money involved and the fact he’s a big name. Let’s not kid ourselves this was the plan all along when it clearly wasn’t the case. You don’t make marquee signings at the age of 30 for £70m just to get one good season out of them and then spend the next few years trying to get rid of them because their legs have predictably started to go. It’s just dumb business and sums up the previous regime. Anyway, I don’t want to bog this thread down any further with the Casemiro talk.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was a marquee signing because of the money involved and the fact he’s a big name. Let’s not kid ourselves this was the plan all along when it clearly wasn’t the case. You don’t make marquee signings at the age of 30 for £70m just to get one good season out of them and then spend the next few years trying to get rid of them because their legs have predictably started to go. It’s just dumb business and sums up the previous regime. Anyway, I don’t want to bog this thread down any further with the Casemiro talk.
Click to expand...

Of course we had intended for him to be still at top level for 2-3 seasons. We've made marquee signings since back with Sir Alex and we've done the same thing with the likes of De Ligt. We're signing players from Bayern and PSG who are big names. Now obviously we've signed younger which is a good thing, whilst if you sign someone coming towards their 30s its a big gamble because they may not have time to turn it around if they dont immediately make their impact. Its why I was frustrated in Casemiro's first season that he was slowly eased in because "McTominay is doing a good job as DM" - well dont sign someone that age for huge money then! Anyway eventually he was put in the team and did very well. And he's started this season well against City and Fulham.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was a pure panic buy under the previous regime because we got off to a bad start and wasted most of the window chasing a player that clearly didn’t want to leave his club. It’s now looked back on as a very poor decision, I’d expect INEOS to be a lot smarter in the market which so far they’ve shown to be.
Click to expand...
Casemiro himself said that contact with United starting earlier in the year and we’d convinced him before the end of the previous season.
 
Ekeke said:
Of course we had intended for him to be still at top level for 2-3 seasons. We've made marquee signings since back with Sir Alex and we've done the same thing with the likes of De Ligt. We're signing players from Bayern and PSG who are big names. Now obviously we've signed younger which is a good thing, whilst if you sign someone coming towards their 30s its a big gamble because they may not have time to turn it around if they dont immediately make their impact. Its why I was frustrated in Casemiro's first season that he was slowly eased in because "McTominay is doing a good job as DM" - well dont sign someone that age for huge money then! Anyway eventually he was put in the team and did very well. And he's started this season well against City and Fulham.
Click to expand...

Obviously the board hoped he would’ve remained at the top level for another 2-3 seasons, we all did but the risk to reward ratio just didn’t add up which is why the deal should’ve never happened. Spending £70m on a 30 year old was massive risk and the chances of it not paying off were much higher than it working out well and we’re seeing that now. He does seem to have found a bit of form again but it’s early days and it remains to be seen if it lasts, bringing Ugarte in will certainly help matters and take a lot of the workload off Casemiro which may help prolong his good form a while longer. Here’s hoping!
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Obviously the board hoped he would’ve remained at the top level for another 2-3 seasons, we all did but the risk to reward ratio just didn’t add up which is why the deal should’ve never happened. Spending £70m on a 30 year old was massive risk and the chances of it not paying off were much higher than it working out well and we’re seeing that now. He does seem to have found a bit of form again but it’s early days and it remains to be seen if it lasts, bringing Ugarte in will certainly help matters and take a lot of the workload off Casemiro which may help prolong his good form a while longer. Here’s hoping!
Click to expand...
Don't know why you're rewriting history and selectively normalising last season's utter tactical shambles that many guaranteed would get the absolute worst out of Casemiro, for the stupid amount of open space it served up and total neglect of midfield buildup. He was a key player when utilised correctly and predictably went completely off the rails when poorly utilised.

If the idea was to bring Casemiro and have him settle the ship whilst nurturing our own through the academy, fully aware that his returns would diminish, the plan is in full effect. If he was supposed to come in and run around like a lunatic in a dire system, then we should never have courtes his services, but the accounts are we had spoken to him for months prior to purchase, and there's even suggestion that he was supposed to come in alongside De Jong, not in lieu of him.

We didn't stumble upon him; it was a bold move for a player who was still the biggest deal in his position in the world.
 
Grande said:
Is this entirely true these days though?

If I remember correctly, Pedulla was early and pretty on the money about the Onana, Amrabat and Højlund transfers last year. Seems like he’s been fairly good lately on Serie A to Man Utd at least. One of them from Atalanta even.
Click to expand...
Romano just said no bids for Ederson. Who to believe
 
Ekeke said:
Dont think thats true of Ederson as he gets forward a lot which is why he scored 6 goals all from inside the box. He tends to play with players like De Roon who sit while he can use his limitless energy and legs to get forward ala McTom. Koopemeiners is the AM and then Ederson joins from deeper. He attacks as much or more than Mainoo
Click to expand...
That's my thought too. He's what we want McTominay to be.
 
Fortitude said:
Don't know why you're rewriting history and selectively normalising last season's utter tactical shambles that many guaranteed would get the absolute worst out of Casemiro, for the stupid amount of open space it served up and total neglect of midfield buildup. He was a key player when utilised correctly and predictably went completely off the rails when poorly utilised.

If the idea was to bring Casemiro and have him settle the ship whilst nurturing our own through the academy, fully aware that his returns would diminish, the plan is in full effect. If he was supposed to come in and run around like a lunatic in a dire system, then we should never have courtes his services, but the accounts are we had spoken to him for months prior to purchase, and there's even suggestion that he was supposed to come in alongside De Jong, not in lieu of him.

We didn't stumble upon him; it was a bold move for a player who was still the biggest deal in his position in the world.
Click to expand...

The point is it wasn’t smart business, whatever the plan was for him and the sort of deal we all hope we never see again under this new regime. Now, after a really good first season(in parts) and a dreadful second one we were all desperate for the Saudi’s to take him off our hands this summer.

He was obviously the best DM in the world at Real Madrid but they got rid of him at the perfect time and probably couldn’t believe their luck that someone was willing to pay £70m for him. It looks like he’ll remain here this season and has shown in the first couple of games signs of potentially regaining his old form and but there’s a long season ahead and we absolutely need another midfielder to take the load of him.

Just to be clear, I’m not hating on the guy he’s the best in the business on his day but how many of those days has he got left in him? It’s not really the question you want to be asking of a £70m player on £300,000 p/w.
 
CallyRed said:
Romano just said no bids for Ederson. Who to believe
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t know. I tend to believe Romano on info about ‘finishing touches’ and info easily checkable, because he seems to me very preoccupied with credibility, and relaying clearly wrong info can mess that up for him. Pedulla I don’t know, but he seems to have sources when it comes to Serie A-United. Doesn’t mean he can’t be wrong, or misinformed, or overly confident, or lying through his teeth.

Romano claiming with certainty Atlanta has received no bid makes me believe they haven’t, and thus haven’t declined one, because that truth will come to light. That doesn’t hiwever mean it can’t be true that For instance United people have talked to Atlanta people and sounded out wether Ederson is attainable, wether such and such figure would be ballpark acceptable etc, without sending a formal bid. Then Pedulla would be facually wrong, or at least imprecise, but ballpark correct, while Romano wouldn’t be wrong saying ‘no bids’.

Or both could be guessing.
 
Robertd0803 said:
What details could they need to sort out about Hojlunds transfer? Weird.
Click to expand...

“Yeah don’t worry, let’s save the 30 min teams call. We can come to Italy, honestly we don’t mind. What’s that? You know the best negronis in town? Fine, if we have to.”

One of them I reckon.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
The point is it wasn’t smart business, whatever the plan was for him and the sort of deal we all hope we never see again under this new regime. Now, after a really good first season(in parts) and a dreadful second one we were all desperate for the Saudi’s to take him off our hands this summer.

He was obviously the best DM in the world at Real Madrid but they got rid of him at the perfect time and probably couldn’t believe their luck that someone was willing to pay £70m for him. It looks like he’ll remain here this season and has shown in the first couple of games signs of potentially regaining his old form and but there’s a long season ahead and we absolutely need another midfielder to take the load of him.

Just to be clear, I’m not hating on the guy he’s the best in the business on his day but how many of those days has he got left in him? It’s not really the question you want to be asking of a £70m player on £300,000 p/w.
Click to expand...
But "form" is connected to system, and it's 100% guaranteed if we play such terrible football again, he'll look half the player once more. If we play football that makes an ounce of sense, I doubt all the discussions revolving around him would've even taken place. It's intrinsically linked, I would say.

Let's say: Mainoo, Collyer and some as yet unconfirmed 3rd come through under Casemiro; the money the club would have saved would be a factor in his worth for what he's enabled us to usher in plus the invaluable tutelage of an all-time great in his position. Those pros could resonate throughout the club long after Casemiro has moved on.

In short, the measure of his worth, even when initially brought in doesn't start and end at the transfer fee. And if last season proves to be the outlier, he'll have come in and done what was expected (initially) and ushered in a wholly different mindset for the club at large. This is nearly always why players are even considered at the twighlight of their prime; they can often be the catalyst for greater things down the line and I definitely think we bought into that.

I don't think you're hating, btw, but I do think it's an elephant in the room topic that too often gets stripped bare with Casemiro coming out a disaster for a lot factors that should never have happened in the first place - if we wanted to play basketball on a football pitch, he's literally one of the least suited players in the world, and was at the time of purchase; if however, there's any semblance of a structured plan, his story is still up in the air and far from concluded.
 
kirk buttercup said:
What if and a massive What if Ugarte on loan with agreement to buy and buy Ederson outright this summer. That would be tide turning. But unfortunately pretty unlikely
Click to expand...
mentioned the same thing in the Ugarte thread....the loan option now even if a small fee leaves us with transfer money to spend opening up the possibility of bringing in another player like Ederson or whomever
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
He was a pure panic buy under the previous regime because we got off to a bad start and wasted most of the window chasing a player that clearly didn’t want to leave his club. It’s now looked back on as a very poor decision, I’d expect INEOS to be a lot smarter in the market which so far they’ve shown to be.
Click to expand...
Actually we were trying to get both Casemiro and FdJ. Antony was the panic buy.
 
Fortitude said:
But "form" is connected to system, and it's 100% guaranteed if we play such terrible football again, he'll look half the player once more. If we play football that makes an ounce of sense, I doubt all the discussions revolving around him would've even taken place. It's intrinsically linked, I would say.

Let's say: Mainoo, Collyer and some as yet unconfirmed 3rd come through under Casemiro; the money the club would have saved would be a factor in his worth for what he's enabled us to usher in plus the invaluable tutelage of an all-time great in his position. Those pros could resonate throughout the club long after Casemiro has moved on.

In short, the measure of his worth, even when initially brought in doesn't start and end at the transfer fee. And if last season proves to be the outlier, he'll have come in and done what was expected (initially) and ushered in a wholly different mindset for the club at large. This is nearly always why players are even considered at the twighlight of their prime; they can often be the catalyst for greater things down the line and I definitely think we bought into that.

I don't think you're hating, btw, but I do think it's an elephant in the room topic that too often gets stripped bare with Casemiro coming out a disaster for a lot factors that should never have happened in the first place - if we wanted to play basketball on a football pitch, he's literally one of the least suited players in the world, and was at the time of purchase; if however, there's any semblance of a structured plan, his story is still up in the air and far from concluded.
Click to expand...

You’ve made some good points, the system last season was fundamentally flawed and made it very hard for most players to excel. Casemiro was left very exposed, The worry I have is we seen even in his first season when he was very good in spells that his form tailed off not long after the league cup win. Whether that was the first signs of him being on the slide remains to be seen. I guess we’ll find out this season.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
You’ve made some good points, the system last season was fundamentally flawed and made it very hard for most players to excel. Casemiro was left very exposed, The worry I have is we seen even in his first season when he was very good in spells that his form tailed off not long after the league cup win. Whether that was the first signs of him being on the slide remains to be seen. I guess we’ll find out this season.
Click to expand...
I just think some things must surely be planned for, given age and player profile, and with him, rotation and managing both game and distance covered per 3rd of a season are paramount. Not special treatment, but the kind of thing done to keep an older engine in tip top condition.

If you deviate from a plan, the fallout is on you as a buyer, imo. Running Casemiro around like a lunatic was so obviously suicidal that it was pointed out by a number of posters literally before the season began because it was a dead certainty to be ruinous. He was never a player to roll out for Kante/Fletcher/Gatusso mileage - he was a guy to bring in and play considered football with structure. The more we deviate from that, the absolute guarantee he'll look worse and worse as it wasn't his game even at his physical peak, let alone now.

My pointer with buying in these kind of profiles is getting the rest of the house in order ASAP, under finite time constraints. If you do that, you get the best of their twighlight years, plus their experience and know-how passed on as well as their comfort around latter stage, serious contesting of major prizes. They are on a sliding scale and nobody should deny that, but what they may offer, you can't get in those who haven't been there and done that. We used to be built on that framework and have deviated from it. It's not a coincidence we've gone from perennial top dogs in the league and Europe to what can fairly be considered bottlers with no nerve once the pressure is truly on. This kind of player is intended to right that balance and steady the ship, acting as guides for others. You obviously have to give them the right conditions, but under them their class will come to the fore, imo.

If we keep a midfield shape and manage Casemiro's minutes correctly, I believe he'll turn the tide of negative opinion and won't be seen as a poor signing after all, whilst bolstering us with intangibles we won't particularly appreciate for a while yet.
 
It might be better for us to wait till next summer to get him cause he will have only 2 years left in his contract in the summer of 2025 so from a negotiation perspective it might be better.
 
RDCR07 said:
It might be better for us to wait till next summer to get him cause he will have only 2 years left in his contract in the summer of 2025 so from a negotiation perspective it might be better.
Click to expand...
If we get Ugarte why do we need this guy? Surely the club needs to at some point focus on high quality passers.
 
Weird, shouldn't we be trying to sign Sporting Lisbon and Primeira Liga players now?
 
pascell said:
I don't think we'll sign anyone in January. But I'm glad we're being linked with Ederson.
Click to expand...
Not sure he's the right player with us having just signed Ugarte - don't think you would want to play them together.

I would have preferred him to Ugarte in the Summer, but we have the latter now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.