Eden Hazard

Also, for someone that doesn't offer 'a lot more' than getting shots away, Alli in 17/18 managed more assists (10) than Hazard ever has in a Premier League season.

All those fouls won and chances created, though.
 
OK, hazard is massively overrated and even dele Alli is better than him. Mo salah on the other hand, belongs to the stratosphere of messi and just above Ronaldo. poor old overrated hazard, cos them "statistics".
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Son and Alli are half the players Hazard is. He should be smashing them statistically.

He's had a few seasons of double figures for goals (whilst being the sides main penalty taker) and never reached double figures for assists, how is that good enough for a wide attacker considered the best player in the league and one of the best in the world?

*Shows you Chelsea scored 85 goals, shows you they had games where they destroyed sides, gets told 'whether I like it or not' he's been held back by conservative play*. ... ok then

You don't need to be stuck upfront to get more goals & assists .. you just need to make better decisions in the final third, which is Hazard's big weakness. His decision making is often poor, and he lacks the ruthless streak which defines some of the world's best. He's insanely good on the ball and should be registering more goals and assists, he's not a central midfielder and is often in and around the box.
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When city won the league last season they scored over 100 goals. That's a lot more than a conservative 85.
When Liverpool finished second
City scored 102 and Liverpool scored 101
In the 2011/2012 season city scored 93 and United scored 89 (not enough to win the league)
The seasons Chelsea have won the league under Mourinho and conte they have scored considerably less, which was fine because they weren't set up to score loads of goals.
Did you bother to read any of this before claiming that 85 goals is a lot or could you not be bothered?
A Midfielder that routinely scored more than 10 goals whilst being a creative outlet is a good return and isn't a stick to beat him with.
 
Dec9003 said:
When city won the league last season they scored over 100 goals. That's a lot more than a conservative 85.
When Liverpool finished second
City scored 102 and Liverpool scored 101
In the 2011/2012 season city scored 93 and United scored 89 (not enough to win the league)
The seasons Chelsea have won the league under Mourinho and conte they have scored considerably less, which was fine because they weren't set up to score loads of goals.
Did you bother to read any of this before claiming that 85 goals is a lot or could you not be bothered?
A Midfielder that routinely scored more than 10 goals whilst being a creative outlet is a good return and isn't a stick to beat him with.
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You said Salah would score way less for that Chelsea side despite his Liverpool team scoring 1 less goal overall last season than Hazard's did. Of course other sides have scored more goals, but that Chelsea side were hardly winning every game 1-0 and grinding out every single game.

Yeah, for 'a midfielder' it's a good return. For an attacking wide player considered the best in the league who has played for league winning sides, who is his sides penalty taker, it's really not that impressive at all.
 
Mark_Barca said:
He was average against Japan.
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He was average for 70 minutes. Then ironically enough he managed to do what Messi has often failed to do for Argentina: single-handedly get his team back into the game mentally. And he did in a way that highlighted both his gifts and his flaws, too :lol:

Probably helped that it was Japan in that regard though

He had a a couple of good games(not great) against Brazil and France but lacked creativity and productivity.
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Mh, i think he was great against France. Not incredible, but great. He was basically alone, running at the french wall with nobody doing anything to help. And he kept on trying for 90 minutes.

Against Brazil i agree. I think Neymar was better than him in that game, too
 
Dec9003 said:
So when talking about a creative player, we now sarcastically brush off chances created? Bizzare.
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Nah, but it doesn't make up for actually scoring goals or getting assists, like pretty much every other creative player in the league seems to manage.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
You said Salah would score way less for that Chelsea side despite his Liverpool team scoring 1 less goal overall last season than Hazard's did. Of course other sides have scored more goals, but that Chelsea side were hardly winning every game 1-0 and grinding out every single game.

Yeah, for 'a midfielder' it's a good return. For an attacking wide player considered the best in the league who has played for league winning sides, who is his sides penalty taker, it's really not that impressive at all.
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Everything went through the front three and mainly Salah at Liverpool. It's different for Hazard at Chelsea, if Salah played the same role as hazard under conte he would absolutely score less goals, whilst not being as effective a dribbler/creator.
Chances created is just as relevant as assists and you're objectively wrong to suggest otherwise.
It's different when your playing the ball to Morata than it is to Kane/Aguero/Salah.
 
Dec9003 said:
Everything went through the front three and mainly Salah at Liverpool. It's different for Hazard at Chelsea, if Salah played the same role as hazard under conte he would absolutely score less goals, whilst not being as effective a dribbler/creator.
Chances created is just as relevant as assists and you're objectively wrong to suggest otherwise.
It's different when your playing the ball to Morata than it is to Kane/Aguero/Salah.
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So .. if Salah played a more creative role at Liverpool, he'd get less assists? Weird logic. Do you think if Hazard played Salah's role he'd score 32 and assist 10?

Even if the bold is true, that doesn't change Hazard's failure to produce enough goals and assists. His managers have all pointed this out, they think he can do more and they want more from him. He has failings in his game which prevent him from scoring more, there are times where he overplays, he dribbles unnecessarily etc .. the true greats cut that out and focus more on productivity and efficiency. They know when the style is necessary.

How about playing the ball to Costa? That was Chelsea's main man the season they won the league under Conte.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
So .. if Salah played a more creative role at Liverpool, he'd get less assists? Weird logic. Do you think if Hazard played Salah's role he'd score 32 and assist 10?

Even if the bold is true, that doesn't change Hazard's failure to produce enough goals and assists. His managers have all pointed this out, they think he can do more and they want more from him. He has failings in his game which prevent him from scoring more, there are times where he overplays, he dribbles unnecessarily etc .. the true greats cut that out and focus more on productivity and efficiency. They know when the style is necessary.

How about playing the ball to Costa? That was Chelsea's main man the season they won the league under Conte.
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It is weird logic because it isn't what I said.
I don't know how many he'd score; he'd score more than he does for Chelsea though. he isn't as ruthless a goalscorer as Salah, just as Salah isn't as creative/effective outside the box as hazard is.
Hazard could produce more goals and assists under a more attack minded manager, likes he's doing this season, the first he's playing under a progressive manager what a surprise.
Giggs didn't score that many at United, so he musnt be a great either in your eyes.
Costa is a good striker, but also for a large part of his career struggled to even hit ten goals in a league season, which is amusing considering you focus so heavily on goals as a measure of a players quality.
This is going to go on forever, but essentially you're wrong for saying hazard can't be seen as the best player in the league. Sure, you could put other names forward like Aguero, but to say it's impossible for hazard to be the best is daft, as most people will tell you.
 
Dec9003 said:
It is weird logic because it isn't what I said.
I don't know how many he'd score; he'd score more than he does for Chelsea though. he isn't as ruthless a goalscorer as Salah, just as Salah isn't as creative/effective outside the box as hazard is.
Hazard could produce more goals and assists under a more attack minded manager, likes he's doing this season, the first he's playing under a progressive manager what a surprise.
Giggs didn't score that many at United, so he musnt be a great either in your eyes.
Costa is a good striker, but also for a large part of his career struggled to even hit ten goals in a league season, which is amusing considering you focus so heavily on goals as a measure of a players quality.
This is going to go on forever, but essentially you're wrong for saying hazard can't be seen as the best player in the league. Sure, you could put other names forward like Aguero, but to say it's impossible for hazard to be the best is daft, as most people will tell you.
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Giggs was a great player, but he wasn't one of the very best in the world, just like Hazard isn't. Costa also wasn't a great striker till he upped his level and started scoring more goals, nobody considered him up there until he upped the amount he could score, quite rightly.

I've never said this. All I've said boils down to:

a) Salah last season reached a level Hazard has never managed, both because of his insane productivity and because of his impact in the CL.
b) Hazard is a brilliant player, but simply one of a number of players you can claim to be the best, and not 'by far' the best in the league. Of course he can be seen as the best, that's a perfectly reasonable opinion, but it becomes silly when you put him on a pedestal above all the rest.
 
Rito said:
OK, hazard is massively overrated and even dele Alli is better than him. Mo salah on the other hand, belongs to the stratosphere of messi and just above Ronaldo. poor old overrated hazard, cos them "statistics".
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I'm not saying any of this, so mindless comments which add nothing to the discussion like this are just utterly pointless.

Just to clarify, Hazard is in a different universe to Alli, and a better player than Salah. It's just that he has failings in his game which I believe if he was to work on he could go up a level, and consistently his managers have also addressed this point and demanded he focus more on getting goals. Too often he's more interested in beating his man.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Giggs was a great player, but he wasn't one of the very best in the world
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One of the best wingers to play in the premier league, second only to maybe Ronaldo.
Also won two champions leagues whilst adapting his game to have an extrordonarily long career full of success. He was certainly one of the best of his era.
 
Dec9003 said:
One of the best wingers to play in the premier league, second only to maybe Ronaldo.
Also won two champions leagues whilst adapting his game to have an extrordonarily long career full of success. He was certainly one of the best of his era.
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He was a great player, with incredible longevity, who played for one of the best teams in PL history. He's undeniably extraordinary but I would say that there were plenty from his era who had a higher top level.
 
Dec9003 said:
Chances created is just as relevant as assists
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Do we have actual stats on this. Because the ones i can come up with are just a combination of assist+key passes and afaik key passes are just passes that lead to shots. Not a very reliable stat

SquishyMcSquish said:
Salah last season reached a level Hazard has never managed, both because of his insane productivity and because of his impact in the CL.
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Limiting it to domestic competitions only i reckon Hazard's 14/15 was comparable with Salah's 17/18, and his 13/14, 16/17 and 17/18 seasons aren't far off either

But otherwise yes, Hazard has yet to have a single season as good as Salah's. Mainly, Hazard needs to start being a world class player in the CL. The WC was a good start
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
All I've said boils down to:

a) Salah last season reached a level Hazard has never managed, both because of his insane productivity and because of his impact in the CL.
b) Hazard is a brilliant player, but simply one of a number of players you can claim to be the best, and not 'by far' the best in the league. Of course he can be seen as the best, that's a perfectly reasonable opinion, but it becomes silly when you put him on a pedestal above all the rest.
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That's probably something most people here could roughly agree on. Which makes me wonder what all this fuss was about?
 
giorno said:
Do we have actual stats on this. Because the ones i can come up with are just a combination of assist+key passes and afaik key passes are just passes that lead to shots. Not a very reliable stat
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Okay, I was one of those who brought that up, which lead to a lot of amusement from certain posters. (I also mentioned my caveats about that stat right away, but that seemed to have gone unnoticed by them.) So here's my opinion on this:

It is indeed the total of all final passes before a shot. One could say the sum of converted and unconverted assists. As with every stat, vital context is missing: It doesn't say what quality the chances were; if that particular play was the best decision or execution possible; if that final pass was the primary factor in the buildup of the chance or not. A great pass can be fluffed by the receiver and thus not counted, etc.

But it's also a factual statement that carries some weight over a longer period of time: if a playmaker sets up goalscoring attempts for his teammates in high quantity, he must do something right.

All of this applies to other basic stats as well, like assists, tackles, pass completion, and so on. They give an indication of what a player does on the pitch, not more, not less. The main thing should always be watching the games, of course. But stats are pretty useful as a supplement/corrective for live impressions, which aren't that reliable either, if we're honest.
 
On current form, I’m sure that every supporter would swap any of their attacking players for Hazard.
 
HNK55 said:
On current form, I’m sure that every supporter would swap any of their attacking players for Hazard.
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On current form he's the best player in EPL by a mile and can seriously compete for the Balon d'or.

But, can he keep his current form until the end of the season? This is not the 1st time he starts a season flying and doesn't keep it up until next summer.

The word is consistency. If he can keep form he's in the best 5 players on the planet. If he can't, he's absolutely useless at times. (similar to Pogs)
 
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Rito said:
OK, hazard is massively overrated and even dele Alli is better than him. Mo salah on the other hand, belongs to the stratosphere of messi and just above Ronaldo. poor old overrated hazard, cos them "statistics".
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I know this is a forum and all but I'm quiet surprised people are still bothering with this guy. He's probably still pissed off Hazard came back from sabbatical to put the bottlers in their place in Leicester's title win.
Oh how I remember that goal with the broadest of grins.
 
HNK55 said:
On current form, I’m sure that every supporter would swap any of their attacking players for Hazard.
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Not me! I'll swap the one season wonder Egyptian for Hazard cos....stats!!

PS: I don't have a TV so pardon my excel influenced opinion.
 
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Don't understand this new word that hazards critics have brought out....Consistency. 1 POTY, another one where arguably he should have got the POTY ahead of Kante, 1 YPOTY (first season in EPL), 4 TOTY out of 6 seasons, absolutely pivotal in two title winning campaigns...But but but...He lacks consistency. Of course he lacks consistency if the yardstick is messi/ Ronaldo , but apart from these two, who exactly has set the world on fire "consistently" , in a competitive league? Really don't understand.
 
Rito said:
Don't understand this new word that hazards critics have brought out....Consistency. 1 POTY, another one where arguably he should have got the POTY ahead of Kante, 1 YPOTY (first season in EPL), 4 TOTY out of 6 seasons, absolutely pivotal in two title winning campaigns...But but but...He lacks consistency. Of course he lacks consistency if the yardstick is messi/ Ronaldo , but apart from these two, who exactly has set the world on fire "consistently" , in a competitive league? Really don't understand.
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I think when people bring up consistency it's due to the style of player he is, being someone who's impact can be massive on a game or non-existent. I see him as similar to Zidane in some respects in that when things work out for him, whether that be opposition teams not triple manning him, or a successful dribble resulting in a goal, he'll get the praise he deserves, but when things aren't set up for him in a match then his contribution is almost non-existent.

I think it's actually unfair to criticise him in this particular way, as there are many players in this mould, and the lack of success in any given match is often not their fault.

The alternative is a player than will never set the world alight, but that can offer a contribution through general team play. I'd say Pogba is similar to Hazard in this respect. Absolutely the best midfielder in the world at times, but due to the fact he's often looking for killer balls, or requires movement from his forwards, there will be games where he looks off the place. Modric on the other hand will always help his team tick, and is arguably the best midfielder of the last few years, but is far less likely to have a performance where you are left blown away by individual moments of genius.
 
He's certainly on a roll right now. Salah's performances last season were something else, but this guy has delivered constantly for his club. Wow! how Chelsea owe this man. A true matchwinner in every sense of the word. Can they keep him? No chance! That's football!
 
Kostov said:
Because he is too good for Chelsea. And the small issue of us missing out on him adds a bitter taste really.
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I don’t get this though. Relative to Real Madrid I guess every team is too small for him (Barca and perhaps United apart) Hazard has won player of the year and been the best player on a couple premier league winning teams at a club that is one of the biggest in the world. (In the tier just below the big 4)
 
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