Sure, but the argument is simply 'has Hazard ever reached that level?' which I don't think he has, some disagree.
Eden Hazard
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Sure, but the argument is simply 'has Hazard ever reached that level?' which I don't think he has, some disagree.
Anyone who thinks Salah has achieved anything or reached any level higher than or even comparable to Hazard is an idiot. Or just a fan of the bottlers.
Best player in the League for me. Love watching him play.
Never has a bad game, even when he isn't getting goals or assists he causes havoc in other teams defenses. When I think about defending against a player, he's probably the player I'd be most scared of playing against even when players like Ronaldo or Messi are mentioned. Even if you stop him scoring, you'd be shattered after the game ! His fitness levels are amazing.
Never has a bad game, even when he isn't getting goals or assists he causes havoc in other teams defenses. When I think about defending against a player, he's probably the player I'd be most scared of playing against even when players like Ronaldo or Messi are mentioned. Even if you stop him scoring, you'd be shattered after the game ! His fitness levels are amazing.
Still think he's a poor man's Robben 
Still think he's a poor man's Robben
Salah?
Nah, Salah's just a one season wonder so far. I meant Hazard.
Guess I should at least slightly elaborate. Hazard looks amazing on the ball, his dribbling skill is damn near perfect and the way he can slalom through a defense is fantastic to watch. However, when it really matters he tends to lack end product. Granted, he seems to have improved that this season, but for an inside cutting forward, like him and Robben, he lacks end product and prolific appearences on the big stages.
Though to be fair, Robben bottled lots of matches too and my poor man's Robben is at least 30% based on nationalism.
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This is the key to me, I don't think I've ever seen a match where the fundamentals i.e. his touch, short passing, dribbling are below par. The only other player I watch regularly with such a high bottom level is Messi.
Salah last season wasn't at a level comparable to Hazard? Think you'd be the idiot in this case.
32 goals 10 assists, Ronaldo/Messiesque stats. Actual impact in Europe, instead of Hazard's disappearing act.
Honestly, Hazard is world class and a brilliant player, yet simultaneously one of the most overrated players in the world. People making constant excuses for his lack of production by saying 'he's too creative!' (hence why the most he's ever managed is 9 league assists) and bigging him up as by far the best player in the league because he looks silky on the ball. He's an attacking wide player who puts up very average statistics for his ability, there's no excusing it, to be considered top level as an attacking player these days you have to put up the numbers.
Also, just to reiterate Salah had more impact on the CL in one season than Hazard has in his entire career.
Ten assists wasn't it? They are great numbers but are regularly eclipsed by Messi.
32 goals 16 assists, Ronaldo/Messiesque stats. Actual impact in Europe, instead of Hazard's disappearing act.
Hazard is a fantastic dribbler. There's not many who can take on 2 or 3 players in one go like he does.
But he just doesn't produce enough goals/assists. Entering his "prime" now though, so I guess we'll see over the next few years what calibre of player he is.
But he just doesn't produce enough goals/assists. Entering his "prime" now though, so I guess we'll see over the next few years what calibre of player he is.
Yeah 10, edited it now.
Messi scored 34 and assisted 12, so pretty similar. It's pretty remarkable when another wide player can put up stats like that, and Hazard has never even got remotely close.
I think you fail to understand that assists aren't the be all and end all of creativity.
Salah last season wasn't at a level comparable to Hazard? Think you'd be the idiot in this case.
32 goals 10 assists, Ronaldo/Messiesque stats. Actual impact in Europe, instead of Hazard's disappearing act.
Honestly, Hazard is world class and a brilliant player, yet simultaneously one of the most overrated players in the world. People making constant excuses for his lack of production by saying 'he's too creative!' (hence why the most he's ever managed is 9 league assists) and bigging him up as by far the best player in the league because he looks silky on the ball. He's an attacking wide player who puts up very average statistics for his ability, there's no excusing it, to be considered top level as an attacking player these days you have to put up the numbers.
Also, just to reiterate Salah had more impact on the CL in one season than Hazard has in his entire career.
The one thing that will always hold Hazard back is just how greedy he is. He enjoys dribbling a lot more than creating. Unplayable on his day though.
OK.
Here are a few of the players considered the most creative in the league:
David Silva: 11 assists
De Bruyne: 16 assists
Eriksen: 10 assists
All attacking midfielders of course, but the likes of Messi (ultra creative, on a totally different level in this respect to Hazard) also get 12 assists, other wide attackers like Sane managed 15 last season, Sanchez at his best for Arsenal was also hitting double figures, Neymar got 13 at Barca. Is there a reason that Hazard is magically just never making the final pass? Are we meant to believe he's so special and unique that we give his lack of productivity a pass?
If you're a top creative player you manage a lot of assists, generally, that is just a fact. Hazard isn't playing in a deep CM role, he's an attacking wide player whose job is to score and create. If we're buying in to the excuse that the reason he doesn't score much is because he's too selfless, then you would expect him to manage a ridiculous amount of assists.
Hazard is incredibly entertaining to watch so gets very overrated, when really a lot of his mazy runs/dribbles lead to nothing.
It depends on a myriad of reasons doesn't it, hazard played for a bad team last season, with Morata upfront and a manager who got sacked, Sane played for a team that got 100 points so naturally there will be a discrepancy between stats.
My point still stands though, you fail to understand that for a wide player there is so much more to the game than assists in terms of creativity.
Often as a wide player being able to carry the ball 20/30 yards and possibly get fouled, and the free kick leads to a goal is doing your job just as well as say a silva or a fabregas playing a ball through to a striker to put away, and that's just one example.
He's certainly not overrated, at least in my opinion anyway.
Hazard has played for league winning teams .. in 16/17 Chelsea scored 85 goals. I'm not only talking about last season, even when he's at his best his statistics have never been good enough to be considered one of the very best in the world.
Top wide players get lots of assists, it's as simple as that .. of course there's more to it, but that doesn't mean that Hazard gets a pass for his lack of productivity. I'm not calling him by far the best in the league because he wins free kicks, the likes of Traore do that. It's weird because I rate him very highly, but he's overrated imo by people who get far too excited about how exciting he is to watch, and just ignore the fact that it quite often doesn't actually lead to a goal. His end product needs to improve markedly, perhaps it will under Sarri .. we'll see.
Hasn't he already scored 7/8 goals this season? No doubt got a couple of assists too.
One of the reasons he gets so many free kicks is because players often can't take the ball off of him without kicking him.
@SquishyMcSquish Hazard was one of the leaders in chances created last season. The fact that he did not have a lot of assists is down to poor finishing from teammates.
@KirkDuyt he is much more Ribery than Robben.
Fair enough, that's true.
By the way, I feel like we've had this discussion before
Salah last season wasn't at a level comparable to Hazard? Think you'd be the idiot in this case.
32 goals 10 assists, Ronaldo/Messiesque stats. Actual impact in Europe, instead of Hazard's disappearing act.
Honestly, Hazard is world class and a brilliant player, yet simultaneously one of the most overrated players in the world. People making constant excuses for his lack of production by saying 'he's too creative!' (hence why the most he's ever managed is 9 league assists) and bigging him up as by far the best player in the league because he looks silky on the ball. He's an attacking wide player who puts up very average statistics for his ability, there's no excusing it, to be considered top level as an attacking player these days you have to put up the numbers.
Also, just to reiterate Salah had more impact on the CL in one season than Hazard has in his entire career.
Salah made it one round further than Hazard did against weaker opposition in the semifinal, and wasn't single-handedly carrying Liverpool the way Hazard had to in 13/14.
Also, your assertion that assists = creativity is laughable. If Hazard puts the ball on a plate for a teammate and they fluff the chance it's Hazard's fault? Look at positive progression value added and xG chain / buildup and you'll start to get a sense of what makes Hazard so valuable.
That's not an adequate description. He's a playmaking midfielder who happens to play on the left wing. So, if you want him to compare with a famous Bayern winger, take Ribery. Not only do they share the same position, they are also very, very similar in their playstyle.
A lot of us were dreaming of him to replace Franck one day, but it's not going to happen, sadly.
Salah had way more impact on Liverpool's CL run than Hazard ever has, just because he got to a semi-final doesn't mean he himself had a great tournament. Wasn't single handedly carrying Liverpool? 32 goals and 10 assists in the league! The man was scoring in every single match, coming up with moments of brilliance every other game ... perhaps he wasn't 'carrying' (no individual does this, not Hazard in 13/14 either) but he was very, very key to them. Look at how blunt they looked after he went off against Madrid.
Yeah, so when Hazard was creating for Costa etc it was still just everybody else's fault he doesn't get assists? Get real ffs. He's a creative player but the reason he doesn't get double figures all the time is because he's not as good as he's made out to be in this regard, certainly not enough to make up for his lack of goals.
'Chances created' is hardly ultra reliable either, weren't Shaqiri/Gross near the top of that list last year?
I'm not buying that it's down to everybody but him that he doesn't ever get that many assists. Top quality creative players assist regardless of their teammates ability, De Bruyne was ripping it up at Wolfsburg.
On goals yes it will probably always finish 1-0.
On turning up at clutch points, creating space, beating players, playmaking and just generally everything a footballer does bar score. Hazard wins by a long margin
I have to check but, it would not surprise me since Gros and Shaquiri are decent players and were the main creators for their sides.
Can this not turn into a Hazard V Salah debate too much in here.
Such a disservice to Eden when everyone realises this year that Salah wont hit anywhere near those heights again, we will see how good a footballer people really think he is when his goals are reduced this year because his all round game is really nothing special
Such a disservice to Eden when everyone realises this year that Salah wont hit anywhere near those heights again, we will see how good a footballer people really think he is when his goals are reduced this year because his all round game is really nothing special
Single-handedly carried you past PSG by not playing?
You have one of those you can show us?
For a person who puts world class and overrated in the same description of a player, yeah I don't think its idiocy at all. Make up your mind dude which is it? Was Kaka also and overrated world class player because he never reached 40+ and 16 or whatever assists in a season? Was Ronaldinho? I guess Salah's last year is better than anything they ever achieved.
Salah last season wasn't at a level comparable to Hazard? Think you'd be the idiot in this case.
32 goals 10 assists, Ronaldo/Messiesque stats. Actual impact in Europe, instead of Hazard's disappearing act.
Honestly, Hazard is world class and a brilliant player, yet simultaneously one of the most overrated players in the world. People making constant excuses for his lack of production by saying 'he's too creative!' (hence why the most he's ever managed is 9 league assists) and bigging him up as by far the best player in the league because he looks silky on the ball. He's an attacking wide player who puts up very average statistics for his ability, there's no excusing it, to be considered top level as an attacking player these days you have to put up the numbers.
Also, just to reiterate Salah had more impact on the CL in one season than Hazard has in his entire career.
A significant number of them came from set pieces, not on-field creativity. When taking only the chances created from open play it looks like this:
Groß --- 46 in 2949 minutes (= 1,4 per 90)
Shaqiri --- 44 in 3049 minutes (= 1,3 per 90)
Hazard --- 80 in 2433 minutes (= 3,0 per 90)
I skipped through last season's numbers a few months ago. If I didn't make a mistake, Hazard created most chances* per 90 minutes from open play in the Champions League and was top 5 for Europe's top leagues. (Counting only those who played significant minutes.) A few players were ahead overall because they took set pieces, which has a pretty big influence on these stats, as can be seen above.
It's still a limited stat (even a bit misleading) and only part of what can be said about Hazard's strengths and weaknesses. But the criticism he doesn't create enough for his teammates falls flat, imo.
* means: shots assisted
Fully agree.
Single-handedly carried you past PSG by not playing?
You have one of those you can show us?
He scored in the first leg! Also, my point was more that last year's Liverpool would blow 13/14 Chelsea out of the water in terms of talent, especially offensively.
Hazard finished 5th last year in key passes (83) behind Kdb (109), Eriksen (94), Fabregas (87), & Ozil (84). In terms of open play key passes, however, he was second only to KdB (84 vs. 77).
PPVA (i.e. Progressive Passing Value Added - measuring good passing that doesn't lead to a shot) - Hazard again finished 5th behind KdB, Ozil, Fabregas, & David Silva.
Hazard isn't the guy that finishes moves; the whole point of his game is to drop deep into midfield, thus drawing out a fullback & creating huge spaces behind for his teammates, successfully retaining the ball under pressure and playing them in for a secondary assist. This is part of why he's fouled constantly - defenders realize that they've overcommitted and have to hack him down to prevent the space behind being exploited. The goal against Liverpool was a classic example - Alexander Arnold is nowhere to be seen, because he's followed Hazard deep and been completely done by a quick passing movement Hazard initiated.
Not last season though.
The criticism isn't that he doesn't create enough for his teammates, it's that he doesn't create enough to the point where you can say he's at another level to other elite footballers. People are saying that it's OK that he doesn't score/assist all that much (compared to the truly elite) because he's so creative, yet this isn't true. He's being declared the best footballer in the league comfortably, easily better than Salah last season etc based on what? His key passing stats?
Hazard is world class and undeniably one of the best the league has to offer, but would I have him far ahead of some of the other contenders? No. I'm struggling to see what puts him far ahead of the other best playmakers in the league, or the likes of Kane or De Gea who are absolutely world class. He's got that entertainment factor where he's incredibly good at beating his man, and I think that makes people rate him higher than other players who use other means to unlock defences.
Exactly.
Don't understand the comparisons with Salah who's a whole different player although both are mentioned as wingers.
You'll never see Hazard scoring tap-ins after showing up for a cross on the 2nd posts.
Most of his goals come from dropping in deep, turning the defender and opening up the space and pçssibly playing himself in after a one-two with a teammate.
He hardly scores long range screamers or finishes of crosses from teammates.
Salah is always operating behind or on the same line as the opposing defence in comparison to Hazard who looks to exploit gaps between the midfield and defence.
Hm, a major point of my post was about the Shaqiri/Groß argument you put forward.
Can't say much about the rest, as I don't have the opinion he's on another level, far ahead or whatever compared to other elite offensive players in the world, but simply among the very best behind Messi and (in form) Ronaldo. Many people have disputed that over the last few years. He's got abilities others don't have and vice versa. There's a lot of truth to posts #1022 and #1032 above, imo.
And I think it's very interesting to see what potential is still there for Sarri to unlock. If Hazard takes his end product to another level over a whole season, then there'll be a legitimate discussion about all this.
Agreed arguably the best last season
Back to normal business now though, shocking currently
Mo Salah had a freak season, the output (goals+assists) of which eclipses strikers like Henry, Shearer, RVN, R9, Batistuta etc., let alone playmakers like Zidane, Figo, Ronaldinho.
Our resident spurs supporter must think that all of these players were somehow overrated or inferior to Mo Salah , since they were all attacking players and couldn't produce a single season like Salah's 2017 - 18 season. Great logic, this.
Our resident spurs supporter must think that all of these players were somehow overrated or inferior to Mo Salah , since they were all attacking players and couldn't produce a single season like Salah's 2017 - 18 season. Great logic, this.
So funny, at least by there logic we know that technically the above players mentioned have not had a world class season like Salah
So funny, at least by there logic we know that technically the above players mentioned have not had a world class season like Salah
That's right, crawl so far up Hazard's arse that you have to twist what I'm saying in order to make a point.
Mo Salah did have a freak season, and yes it was better than any of Hazard seasons, but no he isn't a better player. And no, Hazard isn't 'overrated' because Salah had a better season, he's overrated by people who declare him by far the best in the league when really he's just one of a few in contention.
The players you mentioned were/are better than Salah because they consistently delivered these kind of seasons, but that doesn't mean that Salah's one season wasn't exceptional. I'm talking about Salah last year in isolation yet somehow people are incapable of reading and have taken this to mean I think he's a better player, despite me stating otherwise about 4 or 5 times.
And yes, the other players mentioned had world class seasons. Has Kane ever had a season as good as Salah though? No, he hasn't. He's still been world class, it's just Salah was beyond world class last season, he was easily top 5 in the world in terms of individual performances. Why you feel the need to twist what I'm saying in to 'hurr durr salah better than hazard, only salah world class' I honestly have no idea.
Hazard has never had a serious impact on the CL, and whilst he's had incredible seasons in the premier league it's nothing we haven't seen from others like De Bruyne or Aguero. Salah's productivity (32 goals, 10 assists) was on a level we haven't seen in the Premier League for a while, and was in my opinion unique and the best individual showing in the league since Suarez. He also combined that with 10 goals and 4 assists in the CL, whilst reaching the final.
People here are acting like Salah was nothing but a poacher last season, grinding the goals but not being magical or exciting, when really I found him every bit as entertaining as anything Hazard has produced. Some of his goals were pure genius, he made fools out of defenders consistently.