Exactly. My worry is exactly what you mentioned, we seem to think that we can buy our way into success, the numpties in the boardroom still don't understand that it's all about football expertise and being better at the none financial things, money is only a bonus and it's very easy to waste it in professional sport.
Ed Woodward 2019 - Until all Arctic ice melts edition
- Thread starter fallengt
- Start date
Exactly. My worry is exactly what you mentioned, we seem to think that we can buy our way into success, the numpties in the boardroom still don't understand that it's all about football expertise and being better at the none financial things, money is only a bonus and it's very easy to waste it in professional sport.
A positive sure - but that is a pretty useless figure to be fair in terms of determining how well we're doing compared to others. The market as a whole is always growing (population isn't going down exactly) so it's only natural for revenue to increase as well when you're an established brand such as ours. The real measure of success is to look at market share - whether or not we've gained or lost ground in that department. I would be very interested seeing that figure for the last six years.
Fair opinion which I respect. It just seems to me that we don't spend enough money but I think more importantly that the money we do spend is not getting getting spent wisely enough.
Although I don't think we have spent enough money, I don't think that is the most concerning issue. I am more concerned about the money we have invested has not been invested wisely enough.
We spend almost everything we have, the only way we don't spend enough is if one believes that spending enough means ultimately going into bankruptcy. That's my issue with pretty much every posters in this thread, your ideas aren't grounded in reality. And don't even bothers talking about how much the owners may or may not invest themselves because when it comes to football expenses, they would be limited to 15m which as an investment is nothing and pointless for a club of United's size.
Our issue is simple, we wasted money. We are the football version of a drunken sailor on shore leave.
Mar
Without having the exact numbers I would say that United has been doing very well compared to other clubs over the last six years without outperforming anyone.
Its not a fair comparison to use just the last six years when United started at a much more mature position than our competition. Everyone is getting a noodle partner now, of course they will increase turnover. We started that 15 years ago.
Market share is not very easy if even possible to define and compare for a football club. The closest you probably get is turnover, but even that is not that relevant because of the ever increasing prize money. Commercial income is probably what you need to look at if you are going to compare the business side of things.
Without having the exact numbers I would say that United has been doing very well compared to other clubs over the last six years without outperforming anyone.
Its not a fair comparison to use just the last six years when United started at a much more mature position than our competition. Everyone is getting a noodle partner now, of course they will increase turnover. We started that 15 years ago.
Thanks for sharing that point and explaining it as the last thing I would want to do is for us to go into bankrupt. Where did you get the £15m figure from please? As I find it interesting to learn things from people like yourself who know more about subjects than me.
I totally agree with you point in bold.
Madrid won 3 CL's in a row. They had one bad season so have splashed about 250M. Bayern haven't done less than us in Europe because of our win in the EL. That's like saying Celtic have done more than Liverpool cos they win the Scottish league every year. Juventus are a fantastically well run club and will be amoung the favourites for the CL this season. You're mad if you can't see the difference between us and the other giant clubs.
The PL is more competitive but that hasn't stopped City or Liverpool going from strength to strength. Are we as well run as City? If not then why are you content with Woodward and the Glazers?
Yeah I still did a superficial search (slow day at work here) and even though there's no way my numbers are accurate - there's little doubt we're still standing firm commercially. Dominant in England by some margin - and still growing even though City has gained on us. That being said though if financial rules were actually enforced then City and quite a few other cash-doped team throughout Europe would be forcefully relegated and shut out of the transfer market for the next five years because let's face it - they cheat
This question was not put to me but I will answer it anyway.
Because there is not a better alternative.
There does not exist a fantasy unicorn like a fan buyout or a billionaire that just loves United so much that he will spend 6bn on it just for fun.
The realistic alternatives are Saudi takeover or some other form of sportswashing, or another heavy LBO.
I think people should be entitled to their opinions, but I am also entitled to the opinion that any fan that shouts Glazers out; without having a realistic better alternative, are being destructive towards the club that we all love. If you are going to force the Glazers out (not gonna happen of course), you take the responsibility for what comes after instead.
Just to clarify, when having a go at our owners, I'm not asking for a fantasy unicorn. I just want us to be as well run as possible. We're not being run to our potential and its frustrating. Thats the crux of it all.
I don't really want Saudi owners either. The Glazers can stay if they sort us out properly and turn us into a club that the rest of the PL envy and want to match. Instead we're sadly falling and falling.
At some point, it will. Numbers will start to drop at some point and when they do so does the bargaining power. I’m not saying it will be tomorrow, but it will happen at some point. Every big brand has to fight to stay relevant or they disappear eventually.
I wouldn't say we're falling - we're stagnant in the bottom half of the top-tier. Which is below what you'd expect of course I'll give you that - but let's not get hysterical there are way worse fates than this. And financially we're still as strong as ever so people who are acting as if the four horsemen and their angry grannies are upon us... Well...
Even if some of the criticism is valid and a certain level of grudge definitely warranted - they're still blowing it way out of proportions and many of them are acting like spoiled little spaz-brats doing way more harm than good by spewing their exaggerated discontent unfiltered at all and everything. If you decide to support a club you support it - easy as that. Even through tough times you do yours to keep spirits high. You don't act in a way that only adds to the negativity - and if you do then I'm sorry to say but as far as being a supporter is concerned - you're doing it wrong
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Yeah. I think most people agree on this. Me as well.
What I dont get is the jump from that opinion to Glazers out.
Its irrational and irresponsible. Its not going to make the club being run better.
Or it might, I cant know for sure of course.
Would I throw a hail mary and just hope that whomever comes nxt will be better though?
Hell no.
Sometimes it truly is better the devil you know.
Correction it's 30m. Basically UEFA FFP allows a 5m break even deviation but the owners can finance up to 30m if it's entirely covered by the owners, now the issue is that it's a one time affair because the FFP committee will reeavaluate the future acceptable deviation. Currently United aren't concerned by it but people thinking that a Saudi takeover would totally change our means are being optimistic because unless they cheat, we will roughly have the same amount of money.
I appreciate you explaining that, I now have a much clearer understanding of the financial situation. Due to my lack of knowledge I always thought that if a rich owner came in we would we would have a lot more money. Which you've shown clearly is not the case. Thanks for clarification on the issue
I think the major issue is the dissatisfaction with the transfers both in and out under Woody. It was obvious since Ole was appointed that serious work needed to be undertaken to not only sign new players to improve the team, but also to move some on to make room and ease the wage pressures.
What the heck has Woody and others done compared to teams in similar or better conditions. What groundwork was undertaken, what moves were being planned.
Yes, we should compare Man Utd with Real Madrid and Citeh, as they are direct competitors who seem to have the ability to get things done . So, all the wankfest that Woody spouts to shareholders and to any one that will listen, that he can do things etc etc just echo around these days.
The powers of persuasion and negotation just haven't been successful in securing players and look like hindering the clubs pre season again. All the nonsense that we are too critical and don't understand the nuance behind the scenes, well so be it, Woody is paid a nonsensical amount to be successful on the football side as well as sponsorship, so he deserves criticism until he is actually half way as good as the clubs we are chasing. End of !!!
What the heck has Woody and others done compared to teams in similar or better conditions. What groundwork was undertaken, what moves were being planned.
Yes, we should compare Man Utd with Real Madrid and Citeh, as they are direct competitors who seem to have the ability to get things done . So, all the wankfest that Woody spouts to shareholders and to any one that will listen, that he can do things etc etc just echo around these days.
The powers of persuasion and negotation just haven't been successful in securing players and look like hindering the clubs pre season again. All the nonsense that we are too critical and don't understand the nuance behind the scenes, well so be it, Woody is paid a nonsensical amount to be successful on the football side as well as sponsorship, so he deserves criticism until he is actually half way as good as the clubs we are chasing. End of !!!
To be fair Real Madrid has "saved up" to the spending spree that they are on this summer. They have not had a massive outlay on transfers the last couple of years and thus does not have a lot of amortisation costs for current players right now.
We do, since we have been buying players regularly over the last couple of years. They can invest 4-500m this summer and it will not kill them financially or FFP-wise as long as they can dig up the cash.
How Barcelona balances their books I have no idea though. But thats for another thread.
The very definition of a "glory hunter".
What that all translates to is I'm not getting what I want, a premier league trophy every May so I'm going to have a hissy fit and stop supporting the club I claim to love so much.
We're supporters, it's sport... win, lose or draw we come back to the club we claim to love. None of us like finishing 6th but you dust yourself off and come back in August and yes you sing songs and cheer the players on and if it goes to pot again, that's how it goes.
Finally as I've pointed out with regards finances, there are very few clubs who have outspent us since Ferguson retired. I've just looked on transfermarkt and according to their figures each clubs spends since 2013:
- Barca - £1,178b
- Chelsea - £1,004b
- Man City - £972m
- Man United - £866m
- Real Madrid - £827
- PSG - £816m
- Liverpool - £691m
This nonsense about us not spending enough and saying as you have here that "they won't spend money to get transfers done" is completely unfounded. Your buying into idiotic tabloid BS about haggling over a few million, why would we bother haggling over a few million when £866m has been spent freely? There has been huge, huge investment in the last 6 years, investment enough that should in turn deliver leagues and champions leagues.
The fact that we have the 4th highest outlay on player investment, along with the Premier Leagues highest wage bill of approx £330m (which doubled, 46% under Jose's tenure) also dispels the idiotic notion that they don't care about success.
On what planet can an £866m outlay be summarized as a board not wanting to win trophies and only caring for top 4?
See when you bother to apply some common sense and put the numbers down like this it destroys basically every comment here about haggling over fees, a board only caring about 4th and plenty of other ridiculous sentiments.
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Madrid then went and finished 3rd two seasons on the bounce in what is basically a 2 horse race in Spain. This is after spending a whopping £139m over the course of 3 seasons. I could only imagine the absolute meltdowns if that was United spending that little over the course of 3 years.
So they didn't have just 1 bad season they had 2 by their standards which is largely due to the fact that they massively under spent 3 years running. We spent more on Pogba and Fred for god sake. They lost ZZ because of this and now he has returned and so the cheque book is open again...But, until they win trophies again we don't know.
Bayern have made some semi finals in the CL but no trophies, isn't a trophy better than the last 4? Their team is ageing and they have lost Ribery and Robben now, it'll be interesting to see how they also cope with the loss of James.
Juventus are very well run and the masters of the transfer loan, some fantastic players and you could well be right that they are favorites but its competitive so who knows what will happen.
As for our structure, we've struggled but I'm aware of how big an impact it can be losing a legend and someone as powerful as Ferguson. You can say its 6 years but that isn't all on Ed either as he inherited a mess of an ageing squad, a poor manager in Moyes and our previous CEO just upped and left and didn't bridge the gap for another year in helping Ed, but there is never any heat on Gill at all for this.
In the meantime we've overhauled our training facilities a few times, overhauled our scouting network and still currently hiring for scouts, overhauled youth set up, introduced a womans team whilst trying to rebuild the first team after losing Ferguson and a winning structure that had Rio, Vidic, Evra, Scholes and Giggs all leaving within a 2 year period.
Anyone reading that has to surely admit that is a massive loss for any club to fix regardless of CEO?
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Agree with you part in bold mate. My opinion is that he is a crap negotiator and the only pulling power he has is offering obscene contracts to players other wouldn't pay. I would like he had to ability attract hungry players who want to come here and see it as a challenge of making us great again and them seeing getting excited about having the opportunity of etching their name in folklore by playing a key part in doing so.
The greatest minds in Manchester at work in this thread. Pathetic.
The greatest minds in Manchester at work in this thread. Pathetic.
Not quite as pathetic as your posts.
To be fair to Woodward - at first glance it appears he's done utterly nothing during this transfer window, and has literally just sat on his pudgy little anus during the most important window that he has presided over in his 6 years in charge...
But when you look deeper, it becomes clear that he's not done nothing at all...
Typing out lengthy, overly long pro-Glazer replies literally all day, every day on Redcafe under the name 'Keefy' isn't nothing, and for that, Woodward can at least be seen to be doing something.
Fair play to the man.
But when you look deeper, it becomes clear that he's not done nothing at all...
Typing out lengthy, overly long pro-Glazer replies literally all day, every day on Redcafe under the name 'Keefy' isn't nothing, and for that, Woodward can at least be seen to be doing something.
Fair play to the man.
No wonder you're sleepy, Ed - the following is all from a 24 hour sample of your 'work'...!
Yeah and what was the most vocal protest from the Gooner fans? Wasn't it "Wenger" Out? I didn't see many if any at all about CEO's leaving. Wenger took the brunt of it.
Spurs fans are buzzing about their new stadium and have said that now its built they expect funds to be released for new players. They've only managed the 1 big signing so far though, maybe they'll call for Levy's head?
The bold part is about the only sensible thing I've seen you post on here yet, we are football fans. We're about the only supporters in the league who piss, moan and sulk about sponsorship, bank balances and other silly s*it!
We didn't start supporting United cause of our bank balance or what sponsor we had or didn't, we supported it cause of on field matters! Win, lose or draw the team was supported through far worse than the current situation.
All our supporters seem to give a toss about these days is the business side and spend their days arguing about it online.
I said all.
We are the only top 6 club calling for the CEO to be fired due to how poor things are on field. Arsenal have had some murmurs of discontent with the board but the most vocal protest was Wenger out wasn't it?
Point I'm making is lost obviously... just ignore the stupid sponsorship stuff. All clubs are doing exactly the same. The City video was slaughtered recently if memory serves right?
Our managers and players are letting the club down, the business side is delivering.
Care to address the point I actually made in my comment rather than further insults?
I'll address yours mind.
I put it to you that if City lost Soriano their success would continue because they've got it right across the club with the players, manager, coaching and scouting with a stable board. It isn't singularly down to Soriano. He is but one cog in a bigger machine... their cogs all fit though.
Same way our failings aren't singularly down to Ed. Ed leaving isn't suddenly going to have players playing above their abilities, I mean is Young suddenly going to learn to cross a ball? Is Pogba going to boss the midfield because Ed leaves? The player power isn't going to magically leave just because he does, its deeper than that. Is Lingard suddenly going to stop acting a maggot on social media because Ed goes? There are issues across our club that are there pre Edward still that haven't been fully fixed even like scouting, which we are stilling recruiting for.
So as you can see we have issues with managers doing poorly, players not performing, scouting, coaching (huge issue as our players perform pre United and then turn shit suddenly for us) etc etc..Our cogs in the machine aren't fitting.
I could go on, you get the idea... I'm deeply, deeply sorry to have to tell you this terrible heartbreaking news, but Ed leaving won't magically fix everything.
We won't agree on it and that is perfectly fine. Feel free to hit "ignore".
Nap-time recommended!
I thought it was Joel Glazer
I was waiting for the glory hunter comment. They spent money for about 3 seasons after literally years of under investment. We spent nothing from 2008 to 2013 and then had 8 first team players retire or leave. The Glazers picked the worse time to invest in the squad when the inflation of football transfers went crazy. And our crazy spending in that short period didn’t help matters.
My issue with the club isn’t about spending more than the rest it’s about what we do with the funds we have. And we haven’t made any efforts to sign players for the last two summers now and the squad needs it. I can’t help the board has wasted money. My anger is at the shambolic decisions from player contracts, player signings and new managers and managerial tactics. The club is being run very very badly.
Sanchez on £500k has led to every single player having their recent contracts bumped up.
Mourinho being given a new contract in February, then not backed in the summer creating a terrible season. Then is sacked with £30m compensation because we had to buy out the rest of his contract. That £30m could be a new signing.
That was the board chance to take their time and get the right appointment in. What do they do after two months of good form give someone with no managerial pedigree one of the biggest football jobs in the world. All of this has been caused by the owners having full trust in Woodward. Can’t you see that?
But keep spouting everyone that is unhappy with the club is a glory hunter. Clearly one of the top red brigade. Keep throwing your money to the Glazers if you’re happy.
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So what? This was reactive spending when things were falling apart, not a well thought out strategy, and now 5-6 years down the line we're in a worse position, yet the same people/person are still allowed to call the shots, that's the thing that a lot of people can't accept, just change the god dam setup, and let someone with some sort of forward planning have a go at it.
It's clear we're going to have a high turnover of managers, so it is no good just giving them free reign, (which hasn't happened anyway), and then getting someone radically different in a year or two later and starting over again, which seems to need to happen every time, it's not working.
Yes we've spent a fortune, but last summer when we in a position of strength we stopped, why? because we had achieved what we needed to, and have no interest in spending what it takes to take make the final step, then we paid the price, and now we're back to been reactive again, which is becoming harder and harder as our reputation is eroded, and selling clubs rightly take advantage of us.
It's really hard to understand why a change hasn't been made now, other than Woodward answers to no one.
I thought it was Joel Glazer
Nah, too rich to bother with that kind of thing.
Keefy's desperation and constant 'salesman' posts are that of a corporate Gnome trying, shamelessly, to buy himself time - but at least we know what Ed's doing with his time.
This made me laugh so much, well played man.
Ok Ed, I know you are listening, the thing is mate, if we lose Pogba and don't sign a world-class replacement, then see that first half midfield? Well that will be it for us this season. Think about it buddy.
The bold is all Ed sees in your post.
The only reason Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea fans aren't calling for their CEOs head is because their CEO don't run the footballing side of the club unlike Woodward, it's not that hard to understand. Jesus Christ!
Woodward is great on the commercial side of things. He does bring in a lot of sponsorship and money to the owners, so its a no brainer why he is kept. On a footballing side he has 0 knowledge and is a blundering fool.
I'd be ok with him remaining at the club if we had a DoF in place to do the transfers and leave him to the commercial side of things.
He would still have the final say and seems unwilling to relinquish any real power. He could just employ a total yes man as DOF and we would be no better.
Even if he hired a non-yes man, he could just marginalize him and turn him into a powerless scapegoat.
Woodward would need to actually resign as CEO for this to work.
Agree with your post especially the part in bold as yest is what I've been thinking. I think we just have to Woody pulling the strings mate
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journalists were suggesting the role has little power and merely serves to take the heat off Woodward fanwise