Donny Van De Beek / LOAN to Everton

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RUCK4444 said:
Yeah I said 'to a decent level' and I thought he was pretty anonymous and quite negative at times with his passing, even stalling some counter attacking at times previously.

But yeah, were so bad there this season in particular that playing him probably won't be any worse... but not sure that warrants the clamour for him. As I mentioned in previous post I think he would be better in a midfield three rather than in the pivot, that's where we would see the benefit of his abilities.

I have a gut feeling we will see more of him after the City game. If we can Ten Haag at the end of the season then that would be perfect for him obviously.
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I don't really see how you can say he's been anonymous and negative recently. Maybe when he played the CAM role or was stuck on the wing then yes he plays that in more of an off the ball style.

His last few CM matches though (west ham home in the cup especially) he was absolutely involved. Maybe his appearences are so spread out you just think back to the ones that stick in your memory.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I don't really see how you can say he's been anonymous and negative recently. Maybe when he played the CAM role or was stuck on the wing then yes he plays that in more of an off the ball style.

His last few CM matches though (west ham home in the cup especially) he was absolutely involved. Maybe his appearences are so spread out you just think back to the ones that stick in your memory.
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Could be this, but I just genuinely don't remember any stand out moments, certainly not in a defensive way that I could entertain playing him against City on the weekend.

If I remember that West Ham game (think it was the same game) he lost a runner quite badly on the edge of our box. But we do that for fun at the moment anyway.
 
RUCK4444 said:
Could be this, but I just genuinely don't remember any stand out moments, certainly not in a defensive way that I could entertain playing him against City on the weekend.

If I remember that West Ham game (think it was the same game) he lost a runner quite badly on the edge of our box. But we do that for fun at the moment anyway.
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You're never 100% sure when he's in a defensive situation but he was pretty good against West Ham in the league cup when he got the full 90. Also, yeah no way he's going to start this weekend even if Ole changes his mind about him .. will probably introduce him gradually.
 
RUCK4444 said:
Could be this, but I just genuinely don't remember any stand out moments, certainly not in a defensive way that I could entertain playing him against City on the weekend.

If I remember that West Ham game (think it was the same game) he lost a runner quite badly on the edge of our box. But we do that for fun at the moment anyway.
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He didn't lose a runner, their RB danced passed our whole left wing and got to the byline. DVB dropped deep to cut off the angle to the striker, but the ball deflected off Lindelof and ended up at the edge of the box where it fell to the man DVB was previously marking.

Unfortunately people blame him saying he should have stayed where he was and ignore the immediate danger. He did the right thing as you alway defend the penalty area first - sometimes unlucky things happen.

Anyway, everybody makes mistakes and it's not like our current midfield are flawless either. He actually made many nice tackles and interceptions throughout that game. I know it wasn't their first team midfield either but he's had 2 very good performances against Everton and Wolves before that. He's shown he's more than capable of playing the role IMO.



 
Adam-Utd said:
He didn't lose a runner, their RB danced passed our whole left wing and got to the byline. DVB dropped deep to cut off the angle to the striker, but the ball deflected off Lindelof and ended up at the edge of the box where it fell to the man DVB was previously marking.

Unfortunately people blame him saying he should have stayed where he was and ignore the immediate danger. He did the right thing as you alway defend the penalty area first - sometimes unlucky things happen.

Anyway, everybody makes mistakes and it's not like our current midfield are flawless either. He actually made many nice tackles and interceptions throughout that game. I know it wasn't their first team midfield either but he's had 2 very good performances against Everton and Wolves before that. He's shown he's more than capable of playing the role IMO.



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Yeah perhaps it was a tad harsh, he does lose his man and could have stayed with him as defenders were in the penalty area already, but you can't blame the entire goal on him I agree.

I would have to watch back his performances against Everton and Wolves. Would you play him in the pivot against City?
 
RUCK4444 said:
Yeah perhaps it was a tad harsh, he does lose his man and could have stayed with him as defenders were in the penalty area already, but you can't blame the entire goal on him I agree.

I would have to watch back his performances against Everton and Wolves. Would you play him in the pivot against City?
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I'd play him over Mctominay 100%.

Better in tight spaces when being pressed, won't require Mctominay's height as city rarely play high/long balls.

The main issue is though he probably won't be sharp/match fit. Anyway, no point speculating as we all know it'll be Mcfred.

In these sort of matches it's not so important anyway, but I feel DVB is better utilised in matches where we have/need more control.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I'd play him over Mctominay 100%.

Better in tight spaces when being pressed, won't require Mctominay's height as city rarely play high/long balls.

The main issue is though he probably won't be sharp/match fit. Anyway, no point speculating as we all know it'll be Mcfred.

In these sort of matches it's not so important anyway, but I feel DVB is better utilised in matches where we have/need more control.
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I posted in the match thread that I'd consider changing to a conventional flatter midfield three for this game, which would accommodate DVB if we push Bruno up as a false 9 with Ronaldo.

I think a three in midfield would help against this lot on Saturday.
 
I'd love him at Leicester as a replacement for Tielemans who I don't think will be here next season
 
::sonny:: said:
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Translation:

Donny is hoping to outlast Ole because he believes he could make it here under a new manager. If Ole is still here in January Donny will ask to leave.
 
RUCK4444 said:
He’s only being sold if we choose to sell him. Which we won’t becuase any new manager might have a bigger role for him.
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Pretty sure he'll leave come January if Ole's situation remains the same. He's already wasted too much of his career as it is.
 
LilyWhiteSpur said:
Hearing Conte is lining up a swap deal, VdB for Winks, I'm sure Winksy would fit right in Ole's squad. :wenger:
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Jokes apart, Donny isn't a fit for Conte 343. He prefers a solid defensive duo in that 4 man midfield.

If it's, 352, then Donny could make the cut as the advanced midfielder but you already have GLC and Ndombele for that role.
 
Donny’s a top footballer. Ballon D’or nominee and CL semi finalist, and arguably the best technical midfielder we have when you consider his passing ability and footballing education at Ajax and Jong Ajax. Yet, he cannot get in the team over McFred, two of the most limited midfielders to have played for us in the past few decades. I’m old enough to have watched Jon Greening (after he left us), and yes, more limited than him. And Fellaini.

He’s a model professional as well. Aside from one bit of totally understandable frustration where he threw the chewing gum after Fred was chosen to come on in a game we had to win over him, by all accounts, he’s been a good influence in the dressing room and one of the best trainers in the team. Most other players of his calibre would have downed tools under this sort of treatment by his manager.

Essentially, Ole has bought him to derail his career. I’m not buying that he was a Woodward signing as well. Why not let the man go to Everton in the summer then? For that matter, why not let Lingard go as well when no matter how well he plays off the bench, he’s never going to start? Do we need Martial as 4th choice striker when the fee we might have received for these guys could have been reinvested elsewhere? The myth of Ole being a top man-manager if anything has to be debunked right now.

With Donny though, either sack Ole or just let him go to Everton in January. With James and Sigurdsson gone, he’s perfect for them. One good thing about Rodgers is that I think he’ll fancy Donny in the Tielemans role.
 
Pexbo said:
Translation:

Donny is hoping to outlast Ole because he believes he could make it here under a new manager. If Ole is still here in January Donny will ask to leave.
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So it’s Ole out or Donny out

Ole out
 
Anyone involved in sanctioning a deal to sell this guy can eff off. Imagine being so utterly daft and incompetent to label Donny as some sort of shite deadwood that needs to be sold.
 
When he came on as a sub - you could see exactly why he doesn't play in a double pivot during the PL.

The guy makes a pass and runs unaware further forward creating open free space for the opposition.

It's dangerous to play without a CDM that can properly protect his area.
 
Bebestation said:
When he came on as a sub - you could see exactly why he doesn't play in a double pivot during the PL.

The guy makes a pass and runs unaware further forward creating open free space for the opposition.

It's dangerous to play without a CDM that can properly protect his area.
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Hard to judge. The rest of the team were playing with their heads down, praying for the final whistle.
 
I think with Pogba out of the team for a while, he might have some gameplay, no?
 
Bebestation said:
When he came on as a sub - you could see exactly why he doesn't play in a double pivot during the PL.

The guy makes a pass and runs unaware further forward creating open free space for the opposition.

It's dangerous to play without a CDM that can properly protect his area.
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Nonsense mate. We we're 0-2 down with 10 minutes or something to go. You have to attack the ball if you want to win the game. You can hardly blame him for his teammates calling it a day.
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
Donny’s a top footballer. Ballon D’or nominee and CL semi finalist, and arguably the best technical midfielder we have when you consider his passing ability and footballing education at Ajax and Jong Ajax. Yet, he cannot get in the team over McFred, two of the most limited midfielders to have played for us in the past few decades. I’m old enough to have watched Jon Greening (after he left us), and yes, more limited than him. And Fellaini.

He’s a model professional as well. Aside from one bit of totally understandable frustration where he threw the chewing gum after Fred was chosen to come on in a game we had to win over him, by all accounts, he’s been a good influence in the dressing room and one of the best trainers in the team. Most other players of his calibre would have downed tools under this sort of treatment by his manager.

Essentially, Ole has bought him to derail his career. I’m not buying that he was a Woodward signing as well. Why not let the man go to Everton in the summer then? For that matter, why not let Lingard go as well when no matter how well he plays off the bench, he’s never going to start? Do we need Martial as 4th choice striker when the fee we might have received for these guys could have been reinvested elsewhere? The myth of Ole being a top man-manager if anything has to be debunked right now.

With Donny though, either sack Ole or just let him go to Everton in January. With James and Sigurdsson gone, he’s perfect for them. One good thing about Rodgers is that I think he’ll fancy Donny in the Tielemans role.
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Everton only offered to take Donny on loan at the end of the window, and I think for us to pay part of the salary still.

Why strengthen a potential dark horse for top4 without getting a fee. Better to keep him as a backup in the squad as long as we had room in the 25man squad.

We didn't sell Lingard because we didn't receive any offers. It also seemed like Lingard wasn't in a hurry to leave since him being out of contract next year opens up opportunities, plus at the time the transfer window closed we looked set to challenge this year, he wouldn't have minded a squad role for that before leaving for wherever next season.

We didn't get any offers for Martial, and Ronaldo came late in the window, before that Martial had a much shorter route into the squad. (If Rashford was out either Martial would play there, or Sancho was on left, leaving greenwood for right, and Martial would either be impactsub for Cavani or start if Cavani had to be rested, which happens a lot.)
Had Martial known at the start of the window that we would have Ronaldo he might have had his agent look for a new club.


Easy to say we should have sold players, but someone would have to put in an offer for their approximate value first.
 
Matriac said:
Everton only offered to take Donny on loan at the end of the window, and I think for us to pay part of the salary still.

Why strengthen a potential dark horse for top4 without getting a fee. Better to keep him as a backup in the squad as long as we had room in the 25man squad.

We didn't sell Lingard because we didn't receive any offers. It also seemed like Lingard wasn't in a hurry to leave since him being out of contract next year opens up opportunities, plus at the time the transfer window closed we looked set to challenge this year, he wouldn't have minded a squad role for that before leaving for wherever next season.

We didn't get any offers for Martial, and Ronaldo came late in the window, before that Martial had a much shorter route into the squad. (If Rashford was out either Martial would play there, or Sancho was on left, leaving greenwood for right, and Martial would either be impactsub for Cavani or start if Cavani had to be rested, which happens a lot.)
Had Martial known at the start of the window that we would have Ronaldo he might have had his agent look for a new club.


Easy to say we should have sold players, but someone would have to put in an offer for their approximate value first.
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I’ll give you Martial. However, Lingard was more than sellable to West Ham, and we asked for £30m for a player with one year left on his deal. Most reputable journalists made clear that they just wanted a better deal.

With Donny, if we had loaned him to Everton and allowed him to play, we would have had a top player either adapted to the PL for next season, or at the very least someone who we can command a hefty fee for. If we’re lucky, maybe even recoup the £37m from someone like Inter, Everton or Barca. I’m also not buying the top 4 argument. If Everton are top 4 dark horses, then we might as well just stop selling to English clubs from now on. There’s only so many seasons you can be top 4 dark horses and finish 10th before not being top 4 dark horses. Even leaving that out, why did we loan Lingard to West Ham last season in that case?
 
MalaysianRed7 said:
I’ll give you Martial. However, Lingard was more than sellable to West Ham, and we asked for £30m for a player with one year left on his deal. Most reputable journalists made clear that they just wanted a better deal.

With Donny, if we had loaned him to Everton and allowed him to play, we would have had a top player either adapted to the PL for next season, or at the very least someone who we can command a hefty fee for. If we’re lucky, maybe even recoup the £37m from someone like Inter, Everton or Barca. I’m also not buying the top 4 argument. If Everton are top 4 dark horses, then we might as well just stop selling to English clubs from now on. There’s only so many seasons you can be top 4 dark horses and finish 10th before not being top 4 dark horses. Even leaving that out, why did we loan Lingard to West Ham last season in that case?
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Lingard was sellable yes, and I think if we got anything close to £20m we would have sold. Much less than that and we set a presedence that clubs can always lowball us for our players.
Lingard was not in a hurry to leave the club either. Very little noise about potential transfers. Seems he preferred to stay around to run down his contract.

And there is a difference with a player that's only been at the club for 1 season and someone who's been around the squad for much longer. You're less likely to want to give up on them working out for you.

Lingard to West Ham was also different due to it being for just half a season, when they were in 7th and we were comfortable in 2nd.
West ham paid all of Lingard's salary, plus £1.5m loan fee, plus another 500k we got cause they qualified for Europa League. It was also clearly for the purpose of getting a shot at getting into the England euros squad.

Had Everton offered to pay all of Donny's salary, plus a loan fee, we might have considered it. But it didn't make sense to lose a player that's well liked from the 25 man squad for a full year and still lose money on the deal.
Keeping Donny around could also be seen as insurance against Pogba possibly leaving in January
 
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