Still, he plays Scott McTominay there, a player who 80% of the time offers literally nothing but an extra body there.
Ole shouldn't be given another chance to sign a player.
Donny Van De Beek / LOAN to Everton
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Ole shouldn't be given another chance to sign a player.
he needs to leave. He will never get a game at United when Fernandes is here.
Good luck to him - wrong move to join United
Good luck to him - wrong move to join United
Which is just more double standards given Ole plays Pogba despite Mino’s constant shitstirring.
United’s squad are levels above Everton.
Strange opinion, and the sort of stuff you'd read in the press, where if United do lure a player Chelsea of City want, it's down to money, even though the pair of them aren't exactly Oxfam for wages.
We just signed Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo. There's not many triple signings much better than that.
How we have them functioning is a totally different situation.
United are clearly above Everton in every metric and category except for the manager.
Mino talks a lot of shit and I hate his guts but I can't recall him saying anything about selection or playing time. Maybe he has, I'm not sure, but even if he did, Pogba is someone who any manager would play because of his proven quality.
Scott is a better defensive midfielder though, no argument about that. He's been up and down this season but you saw on the weekend against Spurs why Scott is rightly getting games there instead of VDB.
Sometimes players don't work out, hard to say this was one that Ole was desperate for anyway, happened a bit last minute when our window had gone to shite. Tad harsh on Ole who has largely gotten his signings right and plays the players he's brought in.
See, this is exactly it: the double standard. Van de Beek needs to 'grab his chance' when he gets five minutes - meanwhile, McTominay was awful for the last four or five games but one decent performance is enough justification to play him.
Your missing the point.
It's not their form, it's the fact they have different attributes and play different positions. Why is that so hard to understand?
Donny is a no 10, purchased as rotation for Bruno. We don't play Donny in the pivot the same way we don't play Mata there, because you don't play incredibly slow attacking midfielders at the base of midfield. Crazy I know.
For gods sake i swear people are just willfully ignorant, can't read, or make up whatever they want in their own head to justify their opinions. Both VDB and Ole himself, yes Ole, the manager, have been quoted, yes quotes crazy I know, as saying VDB plays 8, 6 and 10. Infact let me get those quotes for you
“He has worked really hard. He’s waiting to be unleashed and to show what he can do. He can play as a six in a (midfield) two, he can play as an eight as an attacking midfielder, as a 10, we have used him on the wide left coming inside.
“He is a footballer with many qualities that we like at the club but yes, he can play as one of the two in midfield.”
So no, it's not absolute fact he is a no 10 purchased to rotate with Bruno, you made that fantasy up on your own, he should be given a chance to play in that midfield when McFred have been pulling up stinkers for many many matches, he's playing favourites and it's clear for all to see.
Yeah except he doesn’t play there does he. You believe Donny can play all three of those positions to a PL top club standard?
I’d argue he can play NONE of them well enough with the exception of a no 10 where there is a vastly superior player playing ahead of him.
It’s clear as day the management didn’t buy him to play as a 6 or 8 and Ole’s just blowing smoke up his arse to claim he’s that versatile. Proof in the pudding is that he hasn’t got a sniff there.
He’s just not as good defensively as the players we have there, I mean you have to at least agree on that?
Or do you need Ole to lose five games with him at the base of midfield to agree?
Was very excited we signed him and do think he has been mismanaged -
But I've come to the thought that when he does move people would probably realise that he was a bit overrated on here.
But I've come to the thought that when he does move people would probably realise that he was a bit overrated on here.
Hand on heart tell me Fred is faster and stronger than DVB? you can't use that excuse when we have Fred (who I like) playing at the base of midfield every game.
He's the slowest and weakest midfielder out there
He's quickly built up a good relationship with Sancho and there are promising signs of an increased understanding with Greenwood and Rashford. In a few more weeks they all hope to be able to spit gum in perfect harmony.
DVB slower than Fred? Absolutely no doubt in my mind.Hand on heart tell me Fred is faster and stronger than DVB? you can't use that excuse when we have Fred (who I like) playing at the base of midfield every game.
He's the slowest and weakest midfielder out there
Have you seen how slow Donny is?
Wow, that one has blown my mind. Bud. He’s like Mata levels of slow and Fred is no slouch.
Fred is probably stronger as well, yeah.
The latter is much better in the tackle and regaining possession and here’s the kicker, he’s probably more progressive in his passing (and that would have been one of the reasons to get Donny.)
Because Ole won't give him a chance to? So basically Ole signs this player and lies to him about where he can play apparently according to you? I'd like to see him given a chance to is my point
But apparently you've watched VDB throughout his entire career and know exactly everything about him and his abilities so how dare I question that
The players we have there are not good defensively full stop, apart from the last game... I won't agree because yes, lets see him get a run of 5 games to see if he is good enough, if he is trash in all 5 then i'd agree, but apparently you are absolutey convinced we'd lose all 5 just because he is playing in midfield anyway, even though we've not only lost, but been outplayed in more than 5 matches with McFred in midfield but you're happy enough to see them continue match after match
That is all true. But, Ole has never given him a chance to show what he can do, even if he did drop him into the two. He is surely better on the ball than Fred and McT combined. Whether he could handle the defensive aspect or not might be questionable, but I'd prefer to have players who are comfortable with the ball in there, than ones who are in there just to defend and block.
His answer to the bolded part is to keep playing the same players in that area over and over, even though they've been found wanting time and time again. now to save himself he is adding another body in there and ceding possession so he doesn't have to rely on them to try and play football, just block and cover and make sure Maguire doesn't get exposed.
Most likely management bought him thinking that he'd be an option at either #10 or #8, but he hasn't impressed in training and has been poor to average in the majority of chances he has got in either position. As such they feel he hasn't deserved to get more chances than he has.
I generally agreed with that decision last season. I do feel he should have got more chances this season though. His last three starts have all been in central midfield and he's been fairly good in two of them and decent in the third. That does have to come with the caveat that the good performances have come against Wolves last season when neither team had anything to play for and West Ham's B team in the EFL cup. But considering our midfield has been struggling so far this season with our main two both in poor form, I do think he's been hard done by this season.
I've seen enough to know he won't be playing football in the pivot at United. It was widely pointed out at the time we signed him that he would be a great rotation option for Bruno, the similar position to where he played at Ajax and did well, particularly in that CL run.
Since then Ole has been asked a tonne of questions about the player due to his lack of appearances, picking one where he claimed the lad can play anywhere across the midfield doesn't really tell the story of it.
He's played deeper at Ajax but that's a different level league and in by far the most dominant side, so Ajax can get away with that. We don't have that luxury here and we have all seen enough to know he's slower than our current options there and by no means better defensively. So why does Ole need to get himself the sack for you to see that?
Let's just agree to disagree. I understand people have question marks over his signing but I don't understand posters who claim he should be a starting in the pivot and that it's some baffling disgrace of a decision by Ole not to do so.
The output isnt.
I am mainly talking about the last sentence when I reference current calibre
Our resources and ability to throw money about are up there with the best.
Our football isnt. For years.
We know what the board like.
Yeah so this is part of the problem. He definitely is better on the ball than those two, but that's not the problem we are trying to solve.
The problem this season has been our midfield being too open and defensively weak to deal with opposition. Donny doesn't offer much to correct that.
Now if we played a possession system with a high press I would totally agree with the view he should be getting more minutes in midfield, because his ability to retain possession and quality on the ball would be utilised, in this team currently it's a fart in the wind and doesn't fix the issue Ole's having.
The best example I can give is the fact that we struggle to play Pogba there currently, in the absence of a top level DM. He's better than Donny in every aspect of the game yet when we play Pogba currently it compounds our defensive issues in midfield, in this system, in this team, it's exactly the same issue we have with Donny in that position (with none of the upsides we get with Pogba on the pitch.)
For the record, I hope we keep him, I want us to get Ten Haag and Donny would be a great option in that system, but not under Ole in the pivot.
Yeah I've posted why I think he hasn't played in the pivot, I think Ole's reaction when under pressure is to go with his 'reliable' players, it's a human reaction.
It's hard to see the same players underperforming but the manager obviously picks the team he thinks has the best chance of winning and turning things around, there's no doubt an element of Ole wanting to 'play them back into form.' Same goes for Maguire and Shaw to a lesser extent, I think people have every right to be annoyed that Ole hasn't dropped/rotated them season, but the key for me there is that there are like-for-like replacements on the bench for those players... I don't agree that DVB is a like-for-like swap for the pivot.
How does this make sense? I’m looking forward to seeing Everton tonight then so!
If ever someone wanted proof of an agenda...you know you're lying here, why write that?
Haha you don't actually know anything about VDB right? He's been playing as a CM for his whole career, including a CL semi final, EL final, Nations League final(yeah dumb tournament, but still against the reigning European champions) and matches against several big clubs. But now suddenly he can't play CM anymore because Ole doesn't use him or that Ole called him an 10 once, but still ignoring the fact that Ole also said that he could play 6 or 8.
It's not that complicated.
We have two types of midfielders
1: our defensive midfielders who might not even be CDM - this is Mctominay, Matic and Fred. They do the dirty work.
2: we have our more creative midfielders: this is Pogba, Van De Beek and Bruno if he gets chosen to play CM.
Our problem is simple.
How often do you see Pogba with just Fred in a double pivot? Or just Mctominay in a double pivot? It's seen but when it does it doesn't work because our midfield gets cut through. Pogba is not good defensively and neither Mctominay or Fred are pure CDM so it leads to easy openings.
Pogba is seen more with Matic who is more a CDM and it does work better and seems more balanced.
Van De Beek is more defensively balanced than Pogba but he is not as creative as Pogba - so I'm not sure why he gets played next to Matic. One less chance there.
Even though VDB is defensively capable he isn't a defensive player - you see this with his runs, he makes a pass and he is running in to free space. This can't be played in the PL next to a single partner like Fred or Mctominay. One less chance.
Mctominay and Fred are the most defensively balance centre midfielders we have so in a double pivot they are primarily chosen. One less chance.
So why isn't VDB chosen in a midfield 3. Still we need that defensive balance and we are currently only getting that when McFred play together or when Matic is on the pitch. Then there is the choice of Pogba vs Van De Beek. Who is the most creative? Pogba. One less chance there.
Hopefully now that 352 is being played the need for McFred stops as a 4231 is not played, and the use of just one defensive player is used more be it just Mctominay or Fred- then that creative player can be played in CM much more aswell.
The choice of that be Pogba or Van De Beek is up to Solskjaer.
It just highlights why I want a proper CDM and not just an upgrade to Fred or Mctominay.
We have two types of midfielders
1: our defensive midfielders who might not even be CDM - this is Mctominay, Matic and Fred. They do the dirty work.
2: we have our more creative midfielders: this is Pogba, Van De Beek and Bruno if he gets chosen to play CM.
Our problem is simple.
How often do you see Pogba with just Fred in a double pivot? Or just Mctominay in a double pivot? It's seen but when it does it doesn't work because our midfield gets cut through. Pogba is not good defensively and neither Mctominay or Fred are pure CDM so it leads to easy openings.
Pogba is seen more with Matic who is more a CDM and it does work better and seems more balanced.
Van De Beek is more defensively balanced than Pogba but he is not as creative as Pogba - so I'm not sure why he gets played next to Matic. One less chance there.
Even though VDB is defensively capable he isn't a defensive player - you see this with his runs, he makes a pass and he is running in to free space. This can't be played in the PL next to a single partner like Fred or Mctominay. One less chance.
Mctominay and Fred are the most defensively balance centre midfielders we have so in a double pivot they are primarily chosen. One less chance.
So why isn't VDB chosen in a midfield 3. Still we need that defensive balance and we are currently only getting that when McFred play together or when Matic is on the pitch. Then there is the choice of Pogba vs Van De Beek. Who is the most creative? Pogba. One less chance there.
Hopefully now that 352 is being played the need for McFred stops as a 4231 is not played, and the use of just one defensive player is used more be it just Mctominay or Fred- then that creative player can be played in CM much more aswell.
The choice of that be Pogba or Van De Beek is up to Solskjaer.
It just highlights why I want a proper CDM and not just an upgrade to Fred or Mctominay.
Ali Dursun. His players include Frenkie de Jong and Feyenoord's Bijlow and Malacia.
That's similar to Pogba, and we have spent a century pushing him into deep midfield (with no success). And I see more of a midfielder in van de Beek than I see in Pogba. I don't see much of a difference (in terms of defensive game) between Donny, Fred, McTominay and Pogba as neither of them is a defensively sound midfielder. That however is not a reason to ground van de Beek.
Why would I have an agenda again Donny? He hasn’t played enough to dislike the lad
Come off it, he’s slow as feck, just read the match day thread the times he has played. He’s hardly quick.
Because you're telling everyone he can't play CM when he's played most of his career there. Seems a bit weird. He's just average pace, Mata is slow as feckWhy would I have an agenda again Donny? He hasn’t played enough to dislike the lad
Come off it, he’s slow as feck, just read the match day thread the times he has played. He’s hardly quick.
All I’m saying is what I feel the problem is, he’s more of a 10 and doesn’t really improve the problems weve been having in the pivot. I do happen to think he’s slower than your average player as well, yeah.
I feel for him, must be super frustrating and like I posted earlier I would like to keep him especially if we get Ten Haag.
But he isn't more of a 10, he's more of a 8.
Great 5 minutes from him (unironically). In a second half we created zero chances, when he and Sancho came on, in the 5 mins they had we scored in part because of VDB driving forward and making space and VDB nearly scored another. How do we keep ruining (apparently) good footballers?
He and Sancho looked so calm when they came on. No turn back, pose and pass to Matic. Both waited for the gap and runs and kept their composure.
Def a player in there and it's a crying shame not seen more of him.....
He's more a CM than an AM.
Watch him for Ajax.
He's an Ajax graduate - he's technically brilliant in the midfield area. He is dynamic, versatile and a better passer than any one of Matic, Fred and McTominey.
Fred and Mctom arent DM's in the traditional sense, yet we continually play them. Pogba too - he's the worst DM we have yet he plays.
How on earth can we judge him if he doesn't play?
The only time I've ever seen him play to decent level is in attacking areas, that doesn't mean he's a poor player, all I've pointed out is that (in what we've seen) he will not fix the gaping whole in our midfield.
His natural attributes don't improve the defensive issues we've had. That's it, that's my point.
Look at when he came on against Atalanta, where was he effective and where did he gravitate immediately? Advanced areas. I thought it was a nice little cameo but not as a midfielder in the pivot. In fairness I think he was brought on for Bruno, which as I've pointed out, is clearly what the manager bought him for (Bruno's rotation.)
I'd like to see a flat midfield three against City which would help us gain some possession, with Bruno perhaps playing as a false 9 alongside Ronaldo, in that sort of system he would come to life imo, but behind Bruno in the pivot I just don't trust him to improve the problems were already having. Which is what I think the managers opinion is as well.
That's just not true of recent times. His last 5 appearences have all been in the 2 deeper CM positons and he's done fine in all of them. Certainly no worse than anything Pogba/Fred/Matic/Mctominay have put in over the last few months.
There's genuinely no reason he shouldn't be getting a start in midfield these days. The only thing I can think of is Ole priorities combativeness and quick forward passing instead of ball retention.
Yeah I said 'to a decent level' and I thought he was pretty anonymous and quite negative at times with his passing, even stalling some counter attacking at times previously.
But yeah, were so bad there this season in particular that playing him probably won't be any worse... but not sure that warrants the clamour for him. As I mentioned in previous post I think he would be better in a midfield three rather than in the pivot, that's where we would see the benefit of his abilities.
I have a gut feeling we will see more of him after the City game. If we can Ten Haag at the end of the season then that would be perfect for him obviously.
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