I am no fan of his but playing 5 minutes in a game shouldn't be counted as played a game when evaluating a player. He is clearly not doing well in training games and Ole doesn't want to take the risk of him featuring in actual games. There is just too much pressure of winning each game in the PL. His options are to impress in league Cup and/or start doing much better in training games.
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I am no fan of his but playing 5 minutes in a game shouldn't be counted as played a game when evaluating a player. He is clearly not doing well in training games and Ole doesn't want to take the risk of him featuring in actual games. There is just too much pressure of winning each game in the PL. His options are to impress in league Cup and/or start doing much better in training games.
Surely he could be used as a make-weight for a more defensive/required midfielder?
The best option for us is Ndidi - dream deal would be to swap Lingard and Donny for him
The best option for us is Ndidi - dream deal would be to swap Lingard and Donny for him
He played in over 30 matches not all of them were for five minutes. When he was given proper chances, HE FAILED to take them.
I don't really like Van De Boek but have to admit he hasn't been given a proper chance yet.
Wow - weak and cowardly? Amazing. In those 30 game you mention - how many did he start? How many did he play more than 30 minutes? How many were consecutive starts? The guy hasn't been given a chance. If you think he has then fair play, but I think you're way off.
Not that I was asking either of you, but Ole decided he wanted Pogba in the position you wanted Donny to play. So genuinely had feck all to do with James. Are we blaming a player for being selected now? Was he supposed to go on strike or beg Ole to play someone ahead of him? It’s not James fault that Donny has looked piss weak when he’s played for United generally. When James joins Leeds who are you guys going to blame for Donny not getting any game time?
There’s a good player in him somewhere, but it’s not James fault he’s not shown Ole he’s worth a slot in the team.
context.
If you actually watched him, you'd know that he mostly played as subs at the last 5-10 minutes of those matches.
Pogba stopped doing what? Being clueless positionally in CM? Because that's what he's been doing in the last 5 years he's been with us
Except we have shit ton of options in the attack other than Sancho and don't have much in midfield so trying a different combination for once won't harm. We have seen Fred and Matic a million times. Trying Scott and VDB combo for some games while putting Pogba up instead of burying him so deep isn't really a bad option on paper
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He's awful, deal with it. He showed nothing in any of the actual chances he got given, except that one goal.
And yet yet failed not just in those appearances, but in other ones where he had much more time.
Excuse me, where did we blame James for the selection? I've already posted my view on this matter 1 or 2 pages back. If Ole doesn't trust Donny, then he should be sold for a replacement who'll actually play. It's clear that Donny is behind the pecking order.
You said you genuinely couldn't understand the train of thought but when it's explained to you come out with this nonsense.
The only senior players who got fewer minutes than him last season were Juan Mata, Axel Tuanzebe, and Brandon Williams. And at this point we're stretching the definition of 'senior player'. Bailly and Dan James played more than he did. Daniel effing James. Who has been failing for two seasons now yet still gets more chances. Van de Beek's situtation is absolutely baffling.
- If Ole didn't want him, why didn't he veto him?
- If he did want him but he turned out to be absolutely awful in training to the extent that he cannot be trusted against any team at all ever, why didn't we sell him and bring in someone who the manager is actually willing to use?
- If he thinks he can still come good, why isn't he given a chance?
Such a strange and ultimately pointless signing
Surely he could be used as a make-weight for a more defensive/required midfielder?
The best option for us is Ndidi - dream deal would be to swap Lingard and Donny for him
Loan swap with Althetico Madrid VDB for Saul, obligation to buy Saul next summer. Matic leaves, Pogba probably leaves and we play a more balanced 4-3-3
You're overestimating Ajax's team. 1 CL semi final, 1 Europa final and one league title in a couple of years. Donny was an established starter for 2, maybe 3 years no? He wasn't the best player in the team in any of those seasons and he was the 6th best player in that peak year.
It's silly to say United should aspire to be as good as that Ajax team because they had one good run in the CL. One run doesn't make them good. Greece wasn't the best team when they won the Euro. There's some luck in knockout competitions. 2 games aren't a large enough sample size.
You're not upgrading Man United, who actually won the Europa and finished 2nd twice in the world's strongest league by grabbing a middle of the pack starter from Ajax. He's not better than Pogba, Bruno or Fred. He deserves to have had gotten more chances and been used better, cause he's definitely capable of something. But you criticized me for calling him Ajax's 6th best player when you sort of agree with that.
Our disagreement is about how good that side was and about if an average starter from that team can improve United's first team.
I wouldn't be happy if United loses an europa league final and gets to a semi once in the CL every couple of years. Ajax not winning the league consistently is evidence that they weren't as good as you portray them.
Did Ole actually say that Donny is an alternative as a CM (part of the feckin' "double pivot")? I keep seeing people taking it for granted that this is - now - his primary role (but he never gets the chance, bizarrely).
I'm not denying that Ole said it - but when/where? Link would be appreciated.
I'm not denying that Ole said it - but when/where? Link would be appreciated.
You said you genuinely couldn't understand the train of thought but when it's explained to you come out with this nonsense.
Yes Donny doesn’t play left or right wing, so why single out a player in those areas? Might as well blame Sancho as he was a bit turd. Ole picks the team, he i ultimately responsible so moaning on about players in other positions getting into the team is baffling. It was Pogba, Magic, Fred or Donny battling it out for a starting place, James was completely out of the scenario. Maybe we need to start blaming Carrick for Ole’s team selections?
I thought yesterday was a game he might try him in that position. Having not done it, I don’t see where he’s going to get games. He just doesn’t seem to fancy him. I don’t really blame him either.
Looked like a Pogba replacement to me at the time, part of the reason I expected us to sell him. I'm definitely confused as to what the plan is. All that money for him to play the cups?
I'll leave you to it then, you have your facts all wrong and clearly don't care enough to check if you did. Ajax won the last 3 seasons(only 2 titles due Covid though) instead of the one you claim. Besides in the last 5 years Ajax reached an EL final and a CL semi final. Besides that a EL quarterfinal. Don't think that's too bad? United hasn't done that much better in Europe.
But yes as an Ajax fan i might be overestimating Ajax a bit. But then again, the results don't lie for that season, neither did the pundits when they were saying that Ajax might've been the best team that year.
And Greece only performed for 3 weeks when they won the Euros. Ajax performed well for several months, big difference.
Besides i never even made the argument that VDB would be a starter in this discussion. I only said that your method of criticizing players based on their relative skill against teammates is flawed. Because it is and you know it is because you've ignored that argument. According to your logic any player in the world who's playing in the same team as the 5 best in the world is at best the 6th best player of his team, so he must be bad.
Donny Van De Bench . What a strange Strange signing. Could see him moving on without ever featuring. It's a real noodle scratcher to why we ever bought him .
Precisely. And you even see the short shrift some fans are giving stating he's been shit for us, no ifs or buts, whilst not factoring that without a run of games, he might barely even feel comfortable or up to speed with the pace and aggression of real games as opposed to training.
Well without games, he's in a perpetual loop of looking lost, unfit, unready and whatever else people will throw his way. And without games, we'll never actually know what he was or was not capable of. The likes Pereira, James, Lingard and a host of others have been given their chances to sink or swim. Pitching Van de Beek in some random games over an extended period of time is more setting him up to fail than giving him a chance, or exhausting the possibility to prove himself incapable beyond reasonable doubt.
If he were an academy player or even a very cheap punt, what is going on with him with the lack of PT, even in these circumstances might make sense, but in a £40m purchase, whose playing positions include central midfield, you have to ask what's going on, and further to that, if he can only be rolled out for specific games, what is the point of him being here at all?
If he doesn't go in the window, I think they are going to try to convert him into a #6. After the Southampton game, Ole was saying that his decision was whether to play Donny or Matic. That being said, I assume they'd prefer to move him and bring in someone who is more clearly a holding midfielder.
Only one title with Donny on the team... My God. Yes the season wasn't finished, so that's not a title. You had the same points as AZ.... The other title VDB & co had already fecked off.
I'm not criticizing him based on the fact he had better players on the team.. You drawing a bunch of conclusion and I've criticized him in more detail (and also praised him) based on all the top Eredivise matches, the CL/EL matches and the international games and his games for Utd I've seen.
My point with saying he was the 6th best player on that team that year, is that he wasn't the primary contributor to Ajax's success those seasons. That's all. Those other 5 players are better and carried the team harder.
Okay Ajax was fantastic when they reached the CL semi final. So we should buy their best players and not their 6th best one. De Jong, Onana, De Ligt, Zyech, Tadic would have strengthened us more in 20/21. VDB is competing with Bruno or Pogba. Competing with Fred, De Gea, Lindelof, Greenwood in awful form or a limping Rashford for those other players would have been much easier. Take it as a criticism of Ole and our board, not VDB.
Just play Donny in James position, as the later has been so bad anyway. It's not Donny's ideal position, but players play out of their ideal often.
I'm not blaming James, but the manager obviously. As James just did what he'd been told to do.
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Why is he not pushing for a move? World Cup is in 2022, he needs to play and he still couldn't play even when McTominay is injured or when Pogba is pushed to left side.
Anyone who had watched VDB at Ajax will know he is a class player. There is something going on behind the scene that is stopping Ole from playing him in games. There is no way a player can come in as a sub and show what he s capable of in 5 or 10-minute appearances, that too once in a month or so. Sure he could have gotten appearances the last 3 games after doing well against Everton in pre-season, but not to get a single second in a game is telling.
Meh. What you see on the pitch is just a snapshot whereas Ole and his staff see much, much more. Players spend far more time in training sessions designed to replicate game scenarios than they do in actual games. The probability is simply that that DvB isn't doing well enough in aforementioned training to justify match time. The price paid for him is correctly irrelevant.
That's the thing about playing for a big club like United or Real the pressure is on immediately, as a player you've got to perform once you've been trusted on the field, 5, 10 or whatever time you're on there, you've got to do something that would push the fans into being openly critical of the manager, if a player that's done well isn't getting game time, at the end of the day football is owed by the fans, if VDB had played well enough or showed any sort of promise, we the fans would demand him to come on on a matchday, but at the moment he's done nothing of note in the time he's been giving a sniff unfortunately.
What I'm saying is If you want to see DVB play go to Old Trafford sing his name, make a protest, I'm saying this because Ole won't play him in a meanful game unless the fans intervenes.
What I'm saying is If you want to see DVB play go to Old Trafford sing his name, make a protest, I'm saying this because Ole won't play him in a meanful game unless the fans intervenes.
This is not WWE, Ole shouldn't just give minutes to a player because the fans reckon he might be good
It must be that Ole sees something in Donny in training that greatly troubles him. It can't be that Ole is making a statement to the board that because they wouldn't stump the cash last summer for Grealish that he's not going to play him or that the board forced Donny on Ole. Whatever one thinks of the Glazers it's not plausible to believe they would buy players the manager doesn't want.
What I don't think anyone can deny here is that Donny has not seen enough minutes to get into any kind of rhythm. Certainly it's the case that Donny has played far fewer minutes than Fred. And although this would be a matter of opinion, it would be a strained argument to deny that Fred has been significantly worse than Donny. Put another way, if Donny had put in the kind of performance that Fred put in yesterday, we'd never hear the end of it.
What I don't think anyone can deny here is that Donny has not seen enough minutes to get into any kind of rhythm. Certainly it's the case that Donny has played far fewer minutes than Fred. And although this would be a matter of opinion, it would be a strained argument to deny that Fred has been significantly worse than Donny. Put another way, if Donny had put in the kind of performance that Fred put in yesterday, we'd never hear the end of it.
My point actually is, it would put VDB in contention to start games, if fans demands to see their favorite player on the pitch, what are the chances Ole won't give in? I reckon it's the best way to get him on at least off the bench more.
Looking at the attacking talent in the squad his only possible route into the first 11(main games) is in the midfield 2, and he has shown nothing in his career to suggest he is capable of playing full time in a midfield 2 in the PL. If Bruno gets injured maybe he gets a chance in that role but I would be pushing Pogba further forward or giving Rashford/Sancho/Ronaldo a freer role before Donny.
Well, it's a better theory than the one that says Ole fancies him and so he prefers to keep him close to himself on bench.
Wish we were more ruthless, if ole doesnt rate him move him on for what we can and use that to get in a midfielder Ole wants to use. If ole sees him as more of an advanced midfielder both pogba and bruno prob fill that role better, so get in a more deeper lying midfielder then
If we are keeping Lingard then sell him. Lingard would take those miserable minutes he gets which is fine and we get money for a DM
...and Lingard if we're judging by the fact that he was picked ahead of Donny as a sub in the Soton game.
Good back up for Lingard
In fairness, this is the first time in my life I've come across the theory that a manager so highly values a player that he refuses to play him.
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