I wouldn’t, I don’t think he’s going to be the kind of player who churns our massive goal and assist statistics to begin with. I think Ziyech will produce the best numbers in year one.
Donkai Havertz | Arsenal Watch
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The fee might not change in 4 days but their knowledge of what the fee actually is could change in 1 minute.
He's in mine, for what it's worth.
"It's by no means a given that Müller would bench Havertz."
It is a given. Just like Müller has benched every single (talented) player, that came to challenge him (Coutinho, James etc.).
As a German you should know that one simply doesn't replace Müller. Every single coach has learned that lesson. There is a reason why Germany and Bayern are always at their best when Müller shines (2010 WC, 2014 WC, 2012/13 treble and 2019/20 treble) and underperform, when he's not in the lineup or has a bad stretch.
Müller has unique qualities, that Havertz will never possess (and vice versa). Maybe Havertz has a shot at being be a better player someday.
Right now Müller is clearly ahead of Havertz though. Not only as a player, but also as a leader, which is natural given his age and character.
As great a talent Havertz is, some people forget that his first half of the season was a major letdown and many people were already calling him "overrated" and "one-year-wonder". He's not a worldclass player just yet. He has the talent, but he has to get there first.
Just a quick reminder: Havertz is 21 years old, while a 20-year old Müller already was a starter for Bayern and Germany, played in a CL final, was the best young player and top goalscorer of the 2010 WC.
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Ziyech is out isn't he initially?
As hard as it might be to believe, I actually support United.
I'm not a "hardcore fan" though, as I see myself more like a "football fan" in general. I also enjoy other teams/players playing good football, especially great historical clubs.
He's a young player moving to a new league and team, is unproven in the premier league and could take a season to settle in or more.
Clearly Havertz has a lot of potential to be a world class player, no guarantee he full fills it for Chelsea or in our league. We'll find out once he actually plays for a few seasons.
Which is why we kept the fee down to £62m + add ons, even that is very expensive in my opinion. Sancho is a similar situation, can't believe Utd are going to pay €120m for a player who hasn't done anything in the premier league. More so after the England games... All teams should get a big warning from Barcelona. Spanking €105m on Dembele was a disastrous mistake and combined with the money wasted on other transfers, Coutinho, Griezmann and many more they could be crippled for years.
Clearly Havertz has a lot of potential to be a world class player, no guarantee he full fills it for Chelsea or in our league. We'll find out once he actually plays for a few seasons.
Which is why we kept the fee down to £62m + add ons, even that is very expensive in my opinion. Sancho is a similar situation, can't believe Utd are going to pay €120m for a player who hasn't done anything in the premier league. More so after the England games... All teams should get a big warning from Barcelona. Spanking €105m on Dembele was a disastrous mistake and combined with the money wasted on other transfers, Coutinho, Griezmann and many more they could be crippled for years.
Some people lack a sense of humour.
I just love when people call Havertz' first half of the season "a major letdown" or anything along those lines. If anything, that proves that they didn't bother watching Leverkusen matches and judge a midfielder based on his goal record. Havertz was easily our best player in the first half of the season. He didn't score as much but that had much to do with opponent's suddenly double marking him. He still managed to be our main creator.
And yes, being a German I know Müller. I've seen probably hundreds of games of him. I know his strengths and I also know his shortcomings. And he has many shortcomings. I've seen countless games in which he fecked up the easiest passes, touches and finishes in almost comical fashion. I also witnessed his almost two year long run of atrocious form. I even know that he entered the national team in a time in which there were almost no competitors for him. He had an almost free run in the national team and didn't fight with calibers like Kroos, Reus, Kimmich, Gündogan, Goretzka, Brandt etc. for his spot.
Thing is, Müller's biggest strength is his off the ball movement. He's got great spatial awareness and makes superb runs. But coincidentally this is one of Havertz strengths, too. But Havertz is technically in another stratosphere to him. He's already a much better finisher, he's a better dribbler, has way better ball control and he's also a better header and long shot taker. But he never had the luxury of playing in a team like the current Bayern squad.
If we've seen anything under Kovac then it's that Müller needs a well organized squad that stretches the play in order to create areas in which he can make his runs. Havertz never played in such a good team and still managed incredible stats playing from a midfield position. He'd get into so, so much goal scoring positions if he was playing for Munich in Müller's stead. And he could capitalize on his superior passing ability. I don't think anybody would really miss Müller if you replaced him with Havertz on the spot apart from the leadership thing.
Perfectly said.
Is Havertz a great talent? Of course he is!
Chelsea can be really happy that he signed for them.
Here comes the thing though: He's still only that - a great "talent".
He didn't play a full season at worldclass level yet. He is not even a starter for the German N11 yet, despite their youth movement.
Havertz has all the tools to turn into a proper worldclass player soon, but right now he's just not there yet. There are always things that can happen (look at other wonderkids like Götze or Dembele).
People should seriously stop tricking themselves into believing that those young talents are already basically like prime worldclass players like Neymar, Lewandowski or de Bruyne.
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Götze was world class. If Havertz shows the same performances he showed for Leverkusen for an elite club, he'd also be considered world class already. That doesn't mean that he'll succeed at Chelsea, transfers are always a risky business. Ask Coutinho about that.
People see what they want to see in players.
"He's already a much better finisher, he's a better dribbler, has way better ball control and he's also a better header and long shot taker"?
Nonsense. I've watched countless games from both players and couldn't agree less.
Apart from clearly being a better dribbler and looking more elegant on the pitch, Havertz isn't really superior in any other area you mentioned, whereas Müller trumps him in workrate, decision making, pressing, general off-ball movement and of course being a vocal leader.
This "technically in another stratosphere" is the icing on the cake though. You - like many others - mistake "not looking flashy" for "being a bad technician". Müller doesn't look flashy, but he's a good technician. He usually gets the ball where he wants and he wastes very little time doing so. His first goal against Barca was the perfect example for actually great technique (one little move to shake Alba, playing the one-two with Lewandowski and then finishing from a very awkward stance). It doesn't look graceful, but this was a worldclass goal.
Havertz isn't a Thiago or Messi by any means. His technique is very good, but nothing extraordinairy.
"I just love when people call Havertz' first half of the season "a major letdown" or anything along those lines. If anything, that proves that they didn't bother watching Leverkusen matches and judge a midfielder based on his goal record. Havertz was easily our best player in the first half of the season."
What? Like I said, I watched many Leverkusen games and this is just nonsense, too. He was just below average in the first half, no need to sugarcoat it.
While I'm not their biggest fan, even kicker agrees on that one. Those were his ratings in the first half of the season: 2 - 3,5 - 3,5 - 4,5 - 4 - 2 - 4 - 3,5 - 4 - 4 - 2,5 - 4,5 - 5 - 4,5 (for those not knowing, 1 is the best grade and 6 the worst).
He’s in my ff team so he’d better hit the ground running
Come one, I'm not going to discuss that Havertz is technically better than Müller. You could as well argue that Maradona is currently in a better shape than Cristiano Ronaldo or that Giovinco is taller than Peter Crouch.
If Müller "usually gets the ball where he wants" he wants the ball at quite odd positions quite often. I've seen so many fecked up touches and passes of Müller it's unreal. I'm starting to think your claims that you've watched many Leverkusen games are bullshit. The alternative is that you don't recognize a good technician when he jumps into your face.
He missed a sitter in the 2012 Champions League final and cost BM the trophy.
Its really interesting to hear a fans view of Havertz abilities and how opponents doubled up on him. I don't think Chelsea's opponents can afford to do this as there are other players such as Pulisic, Ziyech and Werner who can take advantage of the space that creates.
I've seen the youtube clips of Havertz and know this type of snipet doesn't give a true view of a players abilities. I have sometimes thought his body language is similar to Ozils and had concerns over his stamina. Many people in England think the Premier League places more physical challenges on players. Do you think he can take a hard tackle and get back up?
The fee widely reported is £72m/€80m + add ons, no?!
No, having watched players like Messi, Thiago etc., the technical skills of Havertz just aren't anything special.
Very good technician for sure, but nothing out of this world in top class football. If we stay in the "Bayern picture", he's actually not a better technician than Coutinho or James at all. Müller benched both of them and rightfully so.
Müller might be a bit worse than those three mentioned above in terms of technique, but that's it. There isn't nearly as big a gap as you want to believe. The huge difference is in style (where all those clearly beat Müller) and not in terms of effectiveness. I've also seen quite a few games from Havertz, Coutinho etc., where they seemingly couldn't complete 30% of their passes.
It is what it is though.
You prefer Havertz, I think he's still (clearly) inferior compared to Müller.
None of us will change their stance on this. Best to end it now, since this debate is getting us nowhere.
@blue blue Don't know what you're talking about, but Müller actually scored the 1:0 and then was immediately subbed off in the 86th minute. He didn't miss any chance at all.
That is Müller's goalimpact of the recent seasons:
Interestingly there was never a time when he dropped under a world's top 10 position when it means importance for his team in the last 10 years. Usually you have a curve with a high around age 27/28 today. The red line is the cumultative goal impact graph - the blue points tell about the current influences. Even in so called bad seasons where his goals and assists were lower than in the other seasons... - that matches to Robben's saying that Müller is always very important for the team, even if his actions with the ball aren't that great...
Müller in this season had 3.1 possession losses per 90 minutes (in the last seasons it was around 2.5) - Havertz had 6.3 (in the seasons before one with 3.1 - the others with more than 4)
What are we talking about? Your individual impressions or that what really happens on the pitch?
Interestingly there was never a time when he dropped under a world's top 10 position when it means importance for his team in the last 10 years. Usually you have a curve with a high around age 27/28 today. The red line is the cumultative goal impact graph - the blue points tell about the current influences. Even in so called bad seasons where his goals and assists were lower than in the other seasons... - that matches to Robben's saying that Müller is always very important for the team, even if his actions with the ball aren't that great...
Müller in this season had 3.1 possession losses per 90 minutes (in the last seasons it was around 2.5) - Havertz had 6.3 (in the seasons before one with 3.1 - the others with more than 4)
What are we talking about? Your individual impressions or that what really happens on the pitch?
He's quite assertive in aerial duels and shields the ball way but he's not someone who outmuscles his opponents like Pogba or rides tackles etc. He tries to avoid physical contact and is generally quite good at it. Özil is a good comparison in general, only that he's more of a goal threat.
£71 mil including addons according to the BBC...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54034531
A "maximum of £70m" according to the Guardian...
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-completes-move-chelsea-from-bayer-leverkusen
"£75.8m" according to Sky...
https://www.skysports.com/app/trans...-havertz-from-bayer-leverkusen-for-fee-of-71m
"£62m + £8 mil in addons" according to the Telegraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/09/04/kai-havertz-completes-move-chelsea-62million/
Apparently the player himself waived a 10% (of the transfer fee) clause so that Leverkusen would accept a lower bid (that originally reported) from Chelsea.
Such comparisons don't make sense when you compare the arguably best team in the world with a team struggling to get into the CL. As I said, Havertz was double marked frequently, played as a false 9 at times and teams don't surrender the midfield against Leverkusen as they do against Bayern. Müller would lose many more balls of he played for us.
Yeh I did read that I just think once he’s playing he will produce good numbers.
Interesting. So it's not a record signing, then? Look forward to seeing how he does.
EDIT. Just to add, isn't it slightly unusual there are so many different figures being bandied about?!
You shouldn't complain about the posts from Bayern supporters, if you yourself keep on stating that Havertz would simply bench Müller at Bayern. Better players than the current version of Havertz have tried that and failed.
I didn't intend to say that. My point was that it would not have been clear who takes the spot. But yeah, my money would ultimately be on Havertz.
To put that into context, it's always like that if a player chooses not to play for Bayern. Bayern is interested in a player --> Bayern doesn't get the player --> the player wasn't good enough for Bayern anyway so they probably weren't interested (or variations of that narrative).
Holzhäuser yesterday in Spox...
Der FC Bayern war ebenfalls interessiert, wollte die finanziellen Forderungen der Leverkusener am Ende aber nicht mitmachen. Hätte Havertz noch ein Jahr auf die Münchner warten sollen?
Holzhäuser: Ein Jahr hätte nicht gereicht. In Anbetracht der aktuellen Form von Thomas Müller würde wohl erst in zwei, drei Jahren ein Platz auf der Position im offensiven Mittelfeld frei werden. Ich sage immer: Es ist deutlich schwieriger, sich in einem Topteam wie Bayern durchzusetzen als in einem Team wie Chelsea, das ein Topteam werden will und Positionen neu besetzt, die vorher nicht so gut besetzt waren. Abgesehen davon tut es immer weh, einen Spieler an einen direkten Konkurrenten aus der Liga zu verlieren. Es war also sicherlich auch im Interesse von Bayer Leverkusen, Kai Havertz ins Ausland zu transferieren.
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Holzhäuser was a long time manager of Leverkusen - I actually do not know what function he has today.
FC Bayern was also interested, but in the end did not want to go along with the Leverkusen's financial demands. Should Havertz have waited another year for the Munich team?
Holzhäuser: A year would not have been enough. If you look at the current form of Thomas Müller, a place in the attacking midfield would probably only be available in two or three years. I always say: It is much more difficult to assert oneself in a top team like Bayern than in a team like Chelsea, which wants to become a top team and is filling positions that were not so well filled before. Besides that, it always hurts to lose a player to a direct competitor from the league. So it was certainly in Bayer Leverkusen's interest to transfer Kai Havertz abroad.
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Müller's current form has a lot to do with the manager and the position he plays in - that will not change in foreseeable future...
It is like that at any club. You just notice it more in regards to Bayern since they have supporters who post here.
The statements from Bayern make it obvious that they rate Havertz. The latter might have preferred Bayern over Chelsea all things being equal (Who knows?) but his choice makes sense. Big club, great league, good chance at a lot of playing time.
I simply don’t like the club and am therefore sad that he went there.
Some German posters in this thread talk as if Havertz is the next 'biggest' thing in English football.
I am hardly convinced, but I don't claim to know more than they do about German players or German football, in general.
Liverpool vs Leeds, Spurs vs Everton, and Chelsea vs Brighton are the three standout matches of the first week, the latter only because I want to actually see for myself (in English conditions) what the Havertz hullabaloo is all about!
Edit: I hope he starts!
I am hardly convinced, but I don't claim to know more than they do about German players or German football, in general.
Liverpool vs Leeds, Spurs vs Everton, and Chelsea vs Brighton are the three standout matches of the first week, the latter only because I want to actually see for myself (in English conditions) what the Havertz hullabaloo is all about!
Edit: I hope he starts!
The truth is:
Havertz did not have the choice - atleast not this season. And he did not want to stay at Leverkusen another season. With the transfer sum so high there was no possibility to go to any of the clubs of the first category this season. Maybe it would have been smart for him to go to Chelsea even if there were chances to go to Munich/Barcelona/Madrid this season - and maybe he even would have done that - that we do not know.
Munich has Müller and has Goretzka/Tolisso for runs into the box, Real just shifted one of their unused no. 10s to Everton (as much as I really rate James), Barcelona is in shambles, Liverpool does not invest at all, United just bought Bruno and has Pogba for runs into the box...
I actually believe that he would have had the biggest chances for a starting place at one of the title contenders this season at a club like Manchester City. They lack exactly what he can bring in - even if Guardiola might not know it. High level of passing - but there is still KdB as main provider - but great in the box especially with such a great crosser like KdB.
(My opinion!)
Thats the reason im excited to see him and ziyech link up.
Ziyech has a beast of a delivery in to the box and havertz is an goal threat in the air too.
KdB for example no one ever said he was not good enough for Bayern when we missed him and he signed for Citeh
But Harvetz a 21yr old coming to Bayern to bench Muller a club legend who just recorded the highest assists ever in the league history. Will be similar to expecting someone to bench KdB at Citeh
If Harvetz had moved to Bayern he would have spent a significant amount of time on the bench vs moving to Chelsea where he can play immediately
Will he start during the weekend?
Was never a big fan of Holzhäuser
Anyway, he's got a point there. It's obviously harder and there are other not directly performance related issues involved there. And yes, (fortunately) our representatives, first and foremost Völler, prefer selling players to clubs from different leagues. However, I've seen lots and lots of games of both players. Müller had an exceptional season, yes, but you can't just ignore that he played besides players like Lewandowski, Thiago, Gnabry, Kimmich etc. while Havertz was the standout performer for us who was often man marked. Müller in our team would have a very hard time while Havertz would definitely profit from better team mates - after all, he's a player that flourishes when he can link up with team mates and isn't really individualistic. Yes, I think in the end, the option wasn't on the table. However, Havertz was always keen on playing in a foreign league. In the beginning, it was always about Barcelona. Then during the transfer saga, it was reported that he'd prefer Madrid. I never really feared that he'd join you guys. He even communicated his desire to play outside of Germany in the statement he published after the move became official.
I also generally agree that the signing of Havertz would have been a bit pointless given that you have more than enough players for his position, first and foremost Müller. There are other areas that need an upgrade much more urgently, especially the wings due to Coman's injury record. But after all, Havertz is most likely the biggest German talent at the moment and you're always in for those players. In the past, it didn't bother you that you had other players for their positions at all, see Mario Götze.
In the end, Havertz has made the right choice I guess. He has a relatively free run into the starting eleven, has improved himself immensely and a coach that trusts completely.
Comparing Müller with de Bruyne is a little bit over the top, I'd say. De Bruyne is probably a top 5 player in the world right now while Müller may be world class but his technical short comings always prevented him from entering this tier. That's why I think that a player like Havertz could be an improvement since he offers great off the ball movement, also flourishes in an organized team that creates space for his runs, but also provides technical excellence and plays Müller isn't capable of.
But we'll see, I guess
He's only had a couple of days training with the first team so I'd be surprised id he starts.
Müller literally finished in the Ballon D'Or top 10 multiple times and even finished in the top 5 in 2015 ...Comparing Müller with de Bruyne is a little bit over the top, I'd say. De Bruyne is probably a top 5 player in the world right now while Müller may be world class but his technical short comings always prevented him from entering this tier. That's why I think that a player like Havertz could be an improvement since he offers great off the ball movement, also flourishes in an organized team that creates space for his runs, but also provides technical excellence and plays Müller isn't capable of.
But we'll see, I guess
You're seriously overrating the "flashy part" of the game.
When he's on top of his game and used correctly, Müller is a top 10 player in the world.
You are right in one point though: The system is important for Müller, which is why he's so unique.
If you have coaches, that don't know how to use him, he will be solid, but not that special. However, if used correctly, he's just incredible. Let's take players like Coutinho for example. In a standard team with a standard coach, he'll probably function a bit better than Müller. If you have a coach, that knows how to play Müller, the latter will easily be better and more valuable than Coutinho.
His qualities are just too hard to quantify for most casual fans and sometimes even coaches. He might not "look" like one of the best players in the world and you might personally dislike him for some reason, but he is outstanding and unique.
Almost every single metric, like the one that @Blackwidow showed you above, supports that.
Heynckes himself raved about Müller in an interview today btw.
You seem to think I don't rate Müller. That's not true. I find his off the ball movement fascinating and never denied his impact. But there's only so far you can get with his quite average technique. And Müller is not the only player in the world that has great off the ball movement, timing and spacial awareness.
Thing is, when Bayern has had a great season then the hype surrounding Müller usually takes off completely. Because he's technically less fancy, his fans like to discredit "critics" of him by saying stuff like "you just look at the fancy stuff". As if other players didn't have great movement and wouldn't offer much more on top of it.
Suddenly he's a top 10 player in the world and I'm sorry but that's predicate that's just too much. I mean, you're claiming that he is better than at least one of Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Mbappe, Hazard, de Bruyne, Mane, Salah, Lewandowski and van Dijk. What about players such as Kroos, Dybala, Aguero, Sancho, Thiago, Griezmann, Kimmich, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Reus, Werner, Di Maria and so forth? I'd argue that quite a few of them would at least look as good as Müller in his stead. In all honesty, I'm not even sure if I'd include him in the top 5 of his own team. Lewandowski, Thiago and Kimmich were clearly better than him to me. Alaba, Davies, Neuer and Gnabry weren't too bad either.
This thread should be about Havertz at Chelsea and not about a Leverkusen fan who obviously dislikes Bayern.
Move that to the Bayern or Bundesliga thread.
Move that to the Bayern or Bundesliga thread.
Lmfao tbf the best insight on havertz has come from him, someone whose watched him week in week out for years.
I think he probably will. Of all our new signings I think only Havertz and Werner will play in the opener.
Yes, he is very knowledgeable when it comes to Leverkusen.
He loves Havertz and you signed him so of course you like to hear his „glorification“ of him. Make no mistake, I am a big fan of Havertz myself.
I am just tired of him putting down Bayern and Bayern’s supporters at every chance he gets. This part can IMHO be moved out of this thread.